Inf-info.xls

[Kueltag]

Here's an Excel 11 file (that is Office 2003) that contains a lot of info about Infiltration, especially about weapons. The data are based on my measurements and tests, and should be very accurate.

Contents:
-Bulk for everything that is in the game
-Real life masses and mass per bulk unit for everything plus possibility to enter a further bulk value for each item so you can check how many kilos it would be that way per bulk unit (intended for the CustomBulk mutator)
-Weapon protrudings (how far the end of the weapon is when you hold it aimed, good info for indoors movement)
-Damage done against lvl3A, lvl2, khelm, body, head and monsters
-Recoil and recoil speed (=recoilof1shot * rateoffire)
-Maximum number of pieces you can take of certain items in a loadout
-Names of items (weapons, attachments, ammo, equipment) in INF_Loadouts.ini and LoadoutManager.ini

All of the above for everything that is currently in the game.

Notes:
-This file was made entirely by me in Hungarian Office 2003, so if something's wrong, or I left something in my language, then do post here.
-If there are any factual errors, then do like above.
-I know there are tons of mutators, versions, and hell knows what out there, so some info might not work for your particular Inf. For example I use InfiltrationWeaponEnhancement, if you don't, some data might be incorrect for you. But again, post it here.
-Weights: I did my best to search for them, but there might be some errors (minor, though), there were of course contradictions on the net as well. As you will see in the notes, greyed background cells are almost certain data, while those with white backgrounds are estimates. I did not look up less important items' weight, like that of suppressors, or lasers. An * means normal size mag (20 rnd for the MicroUzi), ** means big mag (32).
-You might find certain items' bulk value strange, that's because I found no importance in the bulk value that the Inf loadout screen tells as it does nothing to you. The values that slow you down over 45 are measured and given in this file. So for example the suppressor's bulk for the Mk.23 is not 3, it's 1, M3S90's flashlight is not 1 but 0, and so on. I'm sure that there are no errors in the bulk chart, so if you found something strange, ask about it or about my way of measurement.
-The strength chart misses some data, those which were hard and somewhat pointless to measure.
-As for quantity limits, I measured if they can take 1000 of each ammo, or not, some could, some didn't, I guess 1000 will be enough, if you want to test (or you know it) what's the exact limit, post it here.
-The data refers to the "current" state of Inf, any new stuff or modification will be entered.
-Designed for 1024x768 or above.

See newer posts for more up-to-date versions.

 

[Kueltag]

v01.01 is here (damn, I'm quick), minor changes.

 

[[5thSFG]Mitchell]

wow, nice piece of work! how much did you need to make it?

 

[Kueltag]

wow, nice piece of work! how much did you need to make it?

If you meant time, I can't really tell. I downloaded Inf a bit more than a year ago, and since that I've been making these tests. It's usual for me, I think I did more modifications to Need for Speed 3 than I played with it. But in the end, I had one of the best NFS 3 installs on the globe, I'm quite sure. (It was easier -at least for me- to edit that than Inf.)

 

[Kueltag]

v01.02 is here with readme, full names for everything, an ultrafast CustomBulk mutator editor, and many minor corrections.

 

[GalZohar]

Is there any way to modify stuff for fractions of bulk (remember reading it's not possible), or alternatively do a global scaling down of bulk effects? Any idea how does the microbulk mod work? I was considering doing an overhaul of the INF bulk system but I don't really have a clue where to start.

Custom bulk is just not enough because in the game's current form for a lot of items it is necessary to give fractions of bulk units, which I remember reading is not possible. Even if fractions were possible, it would be much less work if I could initially apply a global bulk reduction factor on all items.

The general idea is that bulk is GLOBALLY excessive in my opinion (even just by comparing the in-game run speeds to RL run speeds using the same loadout). I'd like to get some total overhaul out in some way that can be tested and improved by others so we might actually have a bulk system everyone agree on.

This will also help for coop, as you should be able to manage with a realistic loadout, that is, you shouldn't start crawling just because you took 18 mags (10~11 more than a normal infantryman). It's actually normal for a RL squad to have one person carry a backpack with ~10 extra mags to hand out to squad members in case combat drags on longer than expected. And it's really a lot less bulky than the guy that has to, say, carry the 10.5 liters of water or even the Stretcher.

 

[Snakeye]

Is there any way to modify stuff for fractions of bulk (remember reading it's not possible), or alternatively do a global scaling down of bulk effects? Any idea how does the microbulk mod work? I was considering doing an overhaul of the INF bulk system but I don't really have a clue where to start.

IIRC bulk is given in integer, so no, fractions are not an option. I'd be surprised if there was a global scaling down - BUT it might be possible to change the values at which bulks start affecting the player, I would have to check the code to give a definite answer though.

The general idea is that bulk is GLOBALLY excessive in my opinion (even just by comparing the in-game run speeds to RL run speeds using the same loadout). I'd like to get some total overhaul out in some way that can be tested and improved by others so we might actually have a bulk system everyone agree on.

Bulk is globally excessive, but that's a design decision the Inf team took back in the old days. Basically the idea was that Inf rounds last distinctly shorter than real life combat and a fully realistic loadout would lead to people expending too much ammo and nades. Given the average time a TDM/DTAS/EAS round lasts that might be generally true, since I never did run out of ammo in those - while I do run out of ammo sometimes on COOP - but then again that might be attributed to the fact I like to go point and therefore have the tendency to get killed pretty early . As for "everyone agree on" - I doubt that very much. Hell not even the few people who played COOP in the old Stinkmarder-Servers only time could agree on what is a decent bulk system, or acceptable way to play..

This will also help for coop, as you should be able to manage with a realistic loadout, that is, you shouldn't start crawling just because you took 18 mags (10~11 more than a normal infantryman). It's actually normal for a RL squad to have one person carry a backpack with ~10 extra mags to hand out to squad members in case combat drags on longer than expected. And it's really a lot less bulky than the guy that has to, say, carry the 10.5 liters of water or even the Stretcher.

Considering a number of books I read (yeah, I do read books because I'm not in the military - and have no intention to join; I live in Austria, all our military does is drink beer excessively and use AUGs, which I both try to avoid) in combat infantrymen tend to carry as much ammo as possible [dependent on the AOO of course], which can end up in 800+ rounds of 5.56. You can carry 18 mags for a 5.56 in COOP though without serious slowdown, as long as you keep the rest lean, i.e. M9 with 5 mags and 4-5 M67s.

The COOP bulk systen [on Stinkmarders server] isn't supposed to be realistic, it's a nonfunctional solution for a problem perceived by a group of people who favor tac-heavy gameplay and dislike "ramboing" - only that it doesn't stop "ramboing" at all - and never will as long as people respawn - but only leads to maps being unpleasant when having to play alone. So what we have here is the perfect proof that playstyle can't be enforced - on the plus side it did generate XploD servers, so I won't really complain . Anyway there's been a lengthy discussion about this in the COOP forums, so you might want to read it there.

Anyway, if you really to want to get into a bulk rework - not that I'd think it makes much sense given the [estimated] ammount of work involved - I could take a look at the code to see if there's a reasonably easy way to influence global bulk.

 

[Carpetsmoker]

IIRC bulk is given in integer, so no, fractions are not an option. I'd be surprised if there was a global scaling down - BUT it might be possible to change the values at which bulks start affecting the player, I would have to check the code to give a definite answer though.

Looked at this, cannot be easily done (Don't remember why exactly), possible workaround would be to increase the effect of one bulk point by a factor 100.

 

[Snakeye]

Looked at this, cannot be easily done (Don't remember why exactly), possible workaround would be to increase the effect of one bulk point by a factor 100.

Hmm, that's bad - although I still intend to take a look myself, since I'm now really interested how it is done. I'm not really getting the increasing bulk effect though - wouldn't that have the opposite effect?

EDIT:
Oooookay, I probably shouldn't have taken that look at the code, but from what I did think to have understood partly [as in 1% maximum comprehension] it seems bulk itself IS given in float for the player class, but in int for the equipment classes - to add to my confusion the functions that seem to add/subtract bulk take the items bulk in integer but the ammount in float - so I could probably drop 2.78 nades but they must have full number bulk, or so . Whatever, I'm not here to question Infs code with my very, very limited coding "knowledge", so I did find a few variables that might actually allow a general downscaling or a shifting of stamina - at least their names sound promising - plus they're all defaultproperties which would allow for an easy testing of my current theories; it might take some time though since I'm still pretty down with work, but I'll post again if I find any definite clues.

 

[Kueltag]

Hi. (I haven't been around for quite some time.) What if you would lower bulk values as follow:
-lvl2 armour vest and khelm: 0
-lvl3A armour vest: 4
-most mags: 1
-40 mm: 1
-M67: 1
(and so on).

This way the total bulk of the following loadout:
M16A4 + M203 + 15 5.56mm mags + 10 M406 + M9 + 3 9mm mags + 4 M67 + lvl2 + khelm
would not be
17 + 5 + 30 + 20 + 5 + 3 + 8 + 6 + 2 = 96
but
17 + 5 + 15 + 10 + 5 + 3 + 4 + 0 + 0 = 59.

 

[GalZohar]

The idea was to have a system that everyone can agree is realistic. Keep in mind real life loadouts are designed around not running out of ammo, therefore a bulk system isn't supposed to limit your ammo (up to a point), but it is supposed to prevent you from being able to run as fast as a rifleman when you're carrying an M249 with 4 ammo boxes and body armor, or an M82, and M4. Not trying to agree on what's best for gameplay, as that's obviously impossible. Just hoping to be as true to RL as possible, with hopes that it will end up working out for gameplay in the end.

Looking at the XLS, the main thing that needs finer tuning is ammo, though that's enough to require either changing bulk to a float, or if not possible, multiply all bulk values by 50 and multiply the effect of each bulk unit by 0.014 (or whatever numbers would give most realistic results).

Tuning bulk for realism IMO won't hurt gameplay since you're still not going to be able to carry an unrealistic arsenal of weapons (since this will again cause you to reach high bulk levels), but you will be able to carry the spare ammo you need for prolonged fighting at a reasonable bulk cost (rather than current excessive bulk cost), as well as be able to go to TDM/DTAS with a combination of a sniper rifle a secondary without being slowed down to a crawl, but then you won't be able to carry ridicules amounts of ammo on top.

As for the ninja posting while I was typing:
-A global bulk reduction is simply not enough, as it will result in a lot of items being worth 1 bulk even though they should be worth less than 0.5. It also means you're shifting the amount of bulk you can carry down, rather than scaling it down, and I already don't like the discreteness of the current bulk system (aka "less than X is fine, more is not"), so would rather not have it increased.
-Your suggested loadout is not a lot lighter than that of an M249 gunner with ~700 rounds, which should probably be more than 59 bulk even with current scale. With global bulk reduction of 0.7 it would be more like 67, which is more reasonable for the weight carried (again with current system). Plus fine-tuning some ammo may make it slightly more realistic on top. Of course more experimentation could be done to determine what the scaling factor should be in order to be as true to RL as what is doable.
-Armor vests and helmets have weight, you can't just set it to 0 or some low value to get a global reduction.

On a side note, does lvl3A really make you practically pistol immune? Hadn't tested it out in game, but I remember reading they're (in real life) only supposed to stop ~6 pistol rounds, 3 M16 rounds, 2 AK rounds or 1 7.62X51mm round, and not the >30 rounds that the spreadsheet lists.
Also I'm not sure if what I was wearing was in fact lvl3a, but it weighted 8KG or so, not 3KG as listed. It's pretty heavy and keeps you warm and wet in the summer noons...

 

[Kueltag]

-Armor vests and helmets have weight, you can't just set it to 0 or some low value to get a global reduction.

But if you set them as I wrote above together with the ammo bulk reduction you will get close to what you want. Remember, you will be just as fast if you have 45 bulk or if you have 0. So it's a stupid thing not to reach 45. At 46 you are marginally (insignificantly) slower. Between 45 and about 100 speed drops rapidly. So: if you set your armor vests bulk to 0, it will "put it in the normal load", I mean you don't have to pay bulks for your clothes, the knife, the bandages (if you set it so). This way you could add an armor without bulk penalty, lowering the whole scale by 6 or 12.

On a side note, does lvl3A really make you practically pistol immune? Hadn't tested it out in game, but I remember reading they're (in real life) only supposed to stop ~6 pistol rounds, 3 M16 rounds, 2 AK rounds or 1 7.62X51mm round, and not the >30 rounds that the spreadsheet lists.
Also I'm not sure if what I was wearing was in fact lvl3a, but it weighted 8KG or so, not 3KG as listed. It's pretty heavy and keeps you warm and wet in the summer noons...

In Inf they made it work this way: they reduce the damage of pistol shots to 1 for a certain (yes, really high) number of hits, then they get instantly eliminated from where you get full damage as if you didn't even bring a vest. However, if you get shot in the legs, arms or face, you always get full damage, so you are not immune.

Try it out: give pistols to an opponent (a bot), and fight against him. He will be much-much more effective at lower skill levels, as he hits various parts of your body. If you play against him at skill 8, he will always hit the vest.

 

[GalZohar]

I was afraid it was something like that, which means we need to mess with it a lot more to fix it. If 45 is the no-penalty point, then a standard rifleman loadout with no extras should reach around that bulk, but then you have the problem that a loadout that weights 2X of a normal rifleman (and LMG loadouts should be something like 3X as heavy) would be 90 bulk which is currently making you totally immobile.

Thus the most important thing that needs to be changed is how quickly you lose stamina/speed as bulk increases above 45. Even better would be to change it so anything above 0 matters, and slowly slows you down up to, say, 200 bulk at which point you move very very slowly, but something like 100-120 bulk will be slow but reasonable. Then on secondary importance is finding a way to fine-tune bulk values.

As for the body armor, that's also something that could use a change - slightly increasing the damage done through armor (say 2-4 or so rather than 1) and make it break after a few shots depending on the weapon and armor specifications IRL, rather than after an absurd amount of rounds. Also something similar could be done to other weapons, as body armor is obviously also effective against rifles, to a degree.

Personally, I don't even know where to look for the code.

 

[Snakeye]

Personally, I don't even know where to look for the code.

Open UnrealEd (don't forget to "Inf" it), open the actor browser and export all scripts - et voilà, you'll have a nice ammount of folders containing the .uc-files [UnrealScript files]. You could also use the lazy mans method and just look at the scripts in the actor browser - which I dislike since you have to switch to the defaultproperties to see their values.

As for changing item bulk to float: forget it. You would need to change it in EVERY class that uses it, i.e. the player class and every weapon, equipment or whatever else has bulk. This would be a pain in the ass if you still had the core source files and could recompile the Inf core files [which we can't], but doing this as a mutator is about the same as taking the eastern route from Berlin to Paris by foot.

From what I could gather your best bet so far might be a global downscale combined with integer-finetuning using custombulk, but I'm still not sure this will work until I'll try it.

As for body armor, it's been a while since I looked at it, bit IIRC the vest has a certain ammount of "health" which is used to absorb a part of the damage; the part absorbed is dependent on the ammo type used; once the "health" is down to zero it stops absorbing, though I'm not sure if there isn't a first limit [around 75% or 50% or so] where the absorption is reduced and the damage to wearer increased. It should be fairly easy to change that [as the AKS74U already does replace the vests with ones that have the AP ammo type added].

In any case, isn't Level 3a supposed to stop handgun ammo only? I thought Level 3 was for rifles (and Level 4 for AP rifles). Where did you get the 6 pistol rounds number from - or more important does this imply the 6 rounds hit close to each other? While I do think the numbers of handgun ammo stopped by Infs Level 3a is a tad on the high side I'd still think if you stray the rounds evenly you'll get different results than when you hit about the same location repeatedly. I do remember some documentaries about bullet resistant glass which is tested my shooting three rounds in a defined pattern close to each other, which the glass has to withstand - it could stop a larger ammount of rounds if they'd hit locations further away from each other. Point is you would have to consider both best and worst case and then find a decent middle way to implement it.

 

[Carpetsmoker]

Hmm, that's bad - although I still intend to take a look myself, since I'm now really interested how it is done. I'm not really getting the increasing bulk effect though - wouldn't that have the opposite effect?

Whoops, I meant decrease, not increase.

 

[Snakeye]

Whoops, I meant decrease, not increase.

Thought so

In any case, a short status update of my investigations:
It IS possible to influence global bulk via mutator (already did and works like a fucking charm); the mutator also influences a few other variables I found to be interesting, but I didn't have the time to see if they work and what they do - I'll need some more testing, but once I'm reasonably sure it works without ill effects I'll upload it here so you guys can play around until you find whatever you think is realistic.

What's perhaps more interesting is, that I found a variable that seems to influence the rate of decline of movement speed with rising bulk - and more importantly it's also a Defaultproperty [for those not yet affected by UnrealScript, that means writing a mutator to influence it is easy], so you might as well be able to fine-tune all relevant Bulk/Stamina variables to your likings. Don't get too excited though, I'm not promising anything until I see it work on at least one system..

 

[GalZohar]

Apparently the info I had is for ceramic plates, and according to wikipedia that's type III, which is better than type IIIa.

Not sure why INF has type IIIa implemented when the standard is type III, though. The weights I listed was for III (ceramic plates) and not IIIa, which according to the website that sells them, it weights between 2-2.5kg. Would it be hard to add lvlIII armor though, considering the plates are not visible anyway (so no new models) and it's just damage tweaks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_vest

level III (ceramic):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_plate

Level IIIa:
http://www.mychildspack.com/defenderplus.html
http://www.sulit.com.ph/index.php/v...letproof+Vest+PE+Level+3A+++Body+Armor+Vest++

Standard US army is lvlIII (ceramic):
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-26-body-armor_x.htm

I couldn't find how many bullets the armors can take, but I clearly remember a website that showed tests implicating they'll stop up to 6 9mm, 3 5.56, 2 7.62X39 or 1 7.62X51.
For ceramic plates, while 2 shots to the same place will probably be more dangerous than 2 shots to different areas, the way the ceramic plate works is that it breaks when hit and loses effectiveness, so after enough was absorbed the entire plate becomes ineffective, regardless of where the next shot hits. The plate is also less effective when hit within 3cm from its edge. Couldn't find reference to that either, but I remember seeing it somewhere...

 

[Snakeye]

Would it be hard to add lvlIII armor though, considering the plates are not visible anyway (so no new models) and it's just damage tweaks?

If you need no new models then you can add/modify anything from Level I to Level IV - you'd just need to make decisions on what represents real life, most preferably based on various sources of good data, which usually isn't available. Trust me, trying to make things right isn't as easy as it sounds if you take it seriously; I've spent a few hours on researching data for the 7N10 and 7N22 ammo used in the AKS74U plus a few more just to try to get that information into the numbers for the ballistics and the vests - and those where not really many numbers to think about. I don't suffer from the delusion I did everything right though, but I did my best to try to get it as right as possible.

I couldn't find how many bullets the armors can take, but I clearly remember a website that showed tests implicating they'll stop up to 6 9mm, 3 5.56, 2 7.62X39 or 1 7.62X51.

Don't get me wrong, but I'll doubt any single number I'd see in such cases. This could be the minimum ammount the vest is guaranteed to stop, this could be average numbers or this could be the maximum. Since Level III is supposed to stop one 7.62x51 [according to Wikipedia] I'd rather think those are the lower end numbers - although that doesn't help in determining what the average and maximum numbers would possibly be.

For ceramic plates, while 2 shots to the same place will probably be more dangerous than 2 shots to different areas, the way the ceramic plate works is that it breaks when hit and loses effectiveness, so after enough was absorbed the entire plate becomes ineffective, regardless of where the next shot hits. The plate is also less effective when hit within 3cm from its edge. Couldn't find reference to that either, but I remember seeing it somewhere...

Another factor that's rather hard to model - and possibly a reason Inf has the Level IIIa in-game, since it should be more predictable.

 

[GalZohar]

While I couldn't find anything to directly back up those numbers regarding ceramic plates, everything I did find did not contradict. That is, if 3a can stop "up to 7.62", it would make sense if it can stop 1. Plus I've seen somewhere else that says it can stop "up to 6 rounds" but didn't say which, so was probably referring to pistol rounds. I don't know why I can't come up with anything, maybe my google skills just suck, as I clearly remember that information being out there.

 

[Snakeye]

Yeah, information can be really hard to find when you really need it..

Anyway, my bulk investigations slowly crawl ahead - while I've still got a variable or two to look at I can by now confirm that both the point at which bulk affetcs stamina as well as the decrease rate of stamina due to bulk can be influenced - although the rate itself is not linear due to the method of stamina calculation used. I guess I'll upload a mutator anywhere between tomorrow evening and Sunday evening - unless something goes seriously wrong..