SkaarjMaster's computer update thread

[SkaarjMaster]

I'm updating my rig around Feb/Mar 2009 and was wondering about the BU community thoughts. I'll still be using XP Home, Lian-Li full-tower case, plenty of DVD-RAM/ROM drives, fans, fan controller, Audigy2 OEM sound card, floppy drive, 19" CRT monitor, Logitech Elite keyboard and probably new MX518 mouse (or the old MX500 until it dies). I would like to see UT3 in all its glory as my old system will be 5 years old by then and possibly try some newer games later on. Here is the new stuff I'm thinking about getting (I'll insert links later if requested or if I have time as this thread progresses):

CPU: Intel Core2Duo E8600 Wolfdale
MB: Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P
HS: Noctua NH-C12P
RAM: Corsair 4GB(2x2GB) 240-pin DDR2 SDRAM 1066 (PC2 8500) TWIN2X4096-8500C5
VIDEO CARD: EVGA Nvidia GTX 280 (1GB)
PSU: Enermax Revolution85+ ERV850EWT 850W
HD: Two (2) Western Digital Black WD1001FALS 1TB 7200rom 32MB cache SATA 3.0GB/s
EXTERNAL HD: Seagate FreeAgent XTreme ST310005FPA2E3-RK 1TB 7200rpm USB2 IEEE1394a eSATA Black
DVD-ROM: Asus E818A3T Black SATA 18X
DVD Burner: Pioneer DVR-216D Black SATA
FLOPPY DRIVE: Sony Black OEM

Case to keep old system running
CASE: Silverstone FTO1-B ATX Mid-Tower Aluminum ATX (ok, so I went overboard)
FLOPPY ADAPTER: Silverstone FP51 Drive Bay Adapter

final parts received 3-11-09

I believe that does it for now. Any comments/suggestions? Thank you.

EDIT: forget the prices later in this thread for those reading for the first time.....I added stuff.

 

[rAt.8^].bAg]

Well there are lots of good choices out there now for the range you're looking at. But I can tell you that on the GPU, the single-core 4870/512MB is plenty enough to run UT3 at max settings @ 1680x1050.

For the parts listed, the Galaxy 1000w is WAY overkill. You don't need anywhere near that big of a PSU, even for a 4870x2. My CPU, RAM, and GPU is o/c'ed almost to the max and the Enermax Infiniti 720 (see sig) does a great job with room to spare. I could have bought the I-650 and been fine too. You can save a big chunk o change ($70 MIR) on the I-720/650 right now compared to the G-1000. I paid $219. for mine 18 months ago and it was worth every cent.

As Skakruk said, get a 64-bit OS. IMHO Vista is still a joke, so I went with OEM vers. XP x64 Pro and it's been great.

YMMV, hope that helps, blah...blah...

 

[SkaarjMaster]

As far as the power supply, if I decide on i7 quad-core CPU and X2 video card, then I'll most likely get something closer to 1000W (that 720W might do it, I'm also looking at Silverstone and PC Power & Cooling).

As far as the video card, I'm leaning toward the single GPU card but haven't completely ruled out the others yet. I usually keep my systems for 3-5 years, so I do want it somewhat future-proofed but that doesn't mean I spend an insane amount of $ either.

I tried looking for a retail version of XP Pro 64-bit and was actually going to go that route, but it was too difficult and I don't want an OEM version. I'll just deal with the RAM limitation for now. I may even try Windows7 later on if it is a significant improvement over Vista.

As far as the MB, it looks like the X58 is having serious problems with RAM and a few other things and the X48 would be a better choice. Some of the GA-E?? series boards seem like trouble as well. I haven't checked real closely into this yet though.

Anyone know what the story is with the X2 video cards? It seems they require a 6-pin and 8-pin connector from the power supply and I don't see many PSUs that have this right now.

 

[rAt.8^].bAg]

True, but it will provide some futureproofing.

I hear that argument all the time, and the truth is most of us don't jump from something that would do well on 500-700w PSU's right into something that needs 1000w. I'd say you don't need that much unless it's say a dual quad core + dual-GPU xFire/SLI, a large array of HDD's, or some other special need.

At the same time, if you do keep a rig for 3-5 years as SM intends, the PSU will probably need replacing anyway so at that time, you can see if you'll need a larger PSU/larger rig.

 

[rAt.8^].bAg]

As far as the power supply, if I decide on i7 quad-core CPU and X2 video card, then I'll most likely get something closer to 1000W (that 720W might do it, I'm also looking at Silverstone and PC Power & Cooling).

As far as the video card, I'm leaning toward the single GPU card but haven't completely ruled out the others yet. I usually keep my systems for 3-5 years, so I do want it somewhat future-proofed but that doesn't mean I spend an insane amount of $ either.

I tried looking for a retail version of XP Pro 64-bit and was actually going to go that route, but it was too difficult and I don't want an OEM version. I'll just deal with the RAM limitation for now (I think right now my present system has 4GB of RAM and it shows 3.5 GB). I may even try Windows7 later on if it is a significant improvement over Vista.

Anyone know what the story is with the X2 video cards? It seems they require a 6-pin and 8-pin connector from the power supply and I don't see many PSUs that have this right now.

There might be some others, but I know the Infinitis and Galaxies have 6 & 8 pin leads.

Go here to calculate the wattage rating you'll need.

What's so "difficult" with x64 Pro? I don't have any driver issues or any probs on install, etc.

 

[rAt.8^].bAg]

I don't know about you, but I tend to recycle my PSU for two or three builds. A quality PSU will last much longer than most other components. If your budget is limited though, I would have to agree - buy a lesser PSU and put the saved cash towards other components.

I use a PSU for as long as it's viable or as long as it ain't dead yet, so if it recycles through a couple of gens, good.

But my point is that SM says he's using this rig for 3-5 years; the other point is that it doesn't have to be a beastly 850-1200 watter to be HQ. Most of the 'mid-power' units from the brands we've mentioned are very decent quality. The higher powered units have basically the same components, but more/bigger, and you're just paying extra for capacity that will go unused.

The TX 750 is an excellent PSU. Corsair makes some of the best PSU's available and for some reason they are significantly cheaper that most other brands where I live.

They've come down in price a lot because they've sold ton of them and surely have recouped their initial overhead costs by now. I bought a HX520 about a year ago (@ $159.!!) to drive an old Athlon rig for my dist. computing farm. It's still cruising along nicely and no issues. :tup:

The only thing I don't like about the TX 750, is that it does not have modular cabling (but if you use PC Power & Cooling's logic, modular cabling is sub optimal anyway).

@ SM:

Some of us have been through the modular vs. non-modular debate before too. This is a large steaming pile of crap put out by PCP&C for marketing purposes. Since they don't make modular units, they want us to think their design is superior, or that something is inherently wrong with modular. HORSESH!T!! There is so much evidence to the contrary that you'd think PCP&C would get off it already, but apparently it's been working for them to sell more units. Yes, they too make decent PSU's, but their anti-modular stance is simply FUD.

Nor have I. The computers I have XP x64 on are strictly gaming/HTPC machines, so I can't comment on the compatibility of AV software, Photoshop etc. etc., but for the 20 or so games I have installed, it runs absolutely perfectly. Just as compatible as XP x86, and more responsive in the Windows environment.

What's wrong with OEM? Just get it with your hard drive or whatever - there's no difference in functionality between OEM and Retail...

Works fer me!

 

[SkaarjMaster]

Just used the power wattage ratings link provided for my minimal system and max. system and ended up with a range from 442W (dual-core CPU, 2 sticks DDR2 RAM, single GPU video card, etc.) to 874W (quad-core CPU, 4 sticks of DDR3 RAM, dual GPU video card, etc.). I'm investigating a few other things tonight and will report back.

That Enermax Galaxy 850W is looking good, but I'll also consider some lower wattage Enermax (don't like the looks of the Infiniti and I want a 2-fan PSU) as well as offerings from Silverstone and PC Power & Cooling. I don't really care if it's modular or not. I've never owned a modular PSU, but I've built a few systems for other people with modular PSUs with no problems. PCP&C can do whatever they want, but they won't sway my decision so no need to worry about the mod vs. non-mod debate for this thread.
Also, I'm sure Corsair, Thermaltake, and other companies that traditionally started their business making other things make fine PSUs, but I just can't bring myself to consider them right now. Even Antec pissed me off a few years back, so they got axed from my PSU short list.

If I do get XP Pro 64-bit, I want a retail version and it looks like I waited too long to get one so I'll just live with it and maybe upgrade to Windows7 later. I want the retail so I don't have any component changes problems later on with M$ when I try to update/activate whatever. I also have a retail copy of XP Home already on my shelf waiting for this new system. I'll give XP one more round for a few years and then probably switch to something else when it isn't supported anymore.

 

[_Lynx]

True, but it will provide some futureproofing.

+1

If your system consumes 650w it doesn't mean you can go with 650w. Yes, that PSU (if it's good) will provide you 650w but it will work with a strain, and that will reduce it's lifespan, to say nothing of various problems related to lack of power. At best, PSU should work at ~60-65% load - that'll ensure you have a room if you need to connect, say a USB drive, joystick, or a couple of hard drives.

 

[[VaLkyR]Anubis]

I'm updating my rig around Feb/Mar 2009 and was wondering about the BU community thoughts. I'll still be using XP Home, Lian-Li full-tower case, plenty of DVD-RAM/ROM drives, fans, fan controller, Audigy2 OEM sound card, floppy drive, 19" CRT monitor, Logitech Elite keyboard and probably new MX518 mouse (or the old MX500 until it dies). I would like to see UT3 in all its glory as my old system will be 5 years old by then and possibly try some newer games later on. Here is the new stuff I'm thinking about getting (I'll insert links later if requested or if I have time as this thread progresses):

CPU: Intel Core2Duo E8600 Wolfdale (may change to i7 later but not sure)
MB: Gigabyte GA-X48-DS5 (maybe)
HS: some type of Thermalright
RAM: Corsair 4GB(2x2GB) 240-pin DDR2 SDRAM 1066 (PC2 8500) TWIN2X4096-8500C5
VIDEO CARD: ATI Sapphire Radeon HD 4870X2 (2GB) or 4850X2 (2GB) or 4870 (1GB)
PSU: Enermax Galaxy EGX1000EWL 1000W (although, this may change)
HD: Two (2) Western Digital RE3 WD1002FBYS 1TB 7200rom 32MB cache SATA 3.0GB/s

I believe that does it for now. Any comments/suggestions? Thank you.

To me, it sounds like a great deal, but I wouldn't buy a ATI. Sure, this VGA is faster than Nvidia's GTX280, but it need more power, the VGA gets hotter and as you probably know, most of the new games and of the past supporting better Nvidia VGA. If that doesn't convince you, why in the hell the Nvidia symbol is the game's cover. I gotta Leadtek GTX260 and I can play everything on bettest quality @ 1680x1050 (digital signal). Get a Nvidia VGA, that gonna make things better. Your chosen mainboard is the same like mine and it is really a good one. Anyway, the CPU might be good, but when you gonna upgrade within Feb/Mar 2009, you gonna get something better than a dual core, perhaps even a core i7 or you take a Quad Core, something like a Q9650. The rest of your idea is good. :]

 

[rAt.8^].bAg]

That Enermax Galaxy 850W is looking good, but I'll also consider some lower wattage Enermax (don't like the looks of the Infiniti and I want a 2-fan PSU)

Are you calling my I-720 ugly? Get yer arse over to DM-Deck now and take yer punishment!!



I think it's a good looking unit but hey YMMV...

The 135mm fan is plenty. It doesn't need 2 fans. I can't hear it at all and this PSU has never gotten hot. IMHO, two 80mm fans are not the way to go since often they'll be louder than a single large fan. Plus it has CoolGuard and PowerGuard - all of which actually works - so what's not to like?

From the tests/reviews I've seen, most PSU's are most efficient when operating between about 40%-60% of their max output, but of course each PSU is different.

Good luck with the new build!

 

[SkaarjMaster]

As far as the ATI/Nvidia debate, I have no problem with more power or hotter GPU(s) as long as I'm getting better performance and the drivers don't suck a$$. If I upgraded last year as I originally planned, then I probably would have an Nvidia card but at this point it looks like ATI has the edge. Of course, my purchase is a long way off so we'll see what happens.

Hehe, the PSU, sorry about the I-720. I just couldn't figure out where that air is blowing. Up? out? down? I was just looking for something similar to my present Enermax 550W that sucks air off CPU, up into the PSU and then out the back with two fans (first one bigger 92mm or larger I think). I guess I'm trying to narrow things down a lot sooner than I should. I may save this PSU decision until last once I decide on my other components (and possible future upgrades).

 

[rAt.8^].bAg]

The fan sucks air in then blows it out of the honeycomb mesh on the rear. In my Stacker case, the PSU is bottom mounted so it doesn't have to deal with any warm air from inside the case.

Yes, better to wait on the PSU decision until you know for sure what the rest of the components will be.

 

[SkaarjMaster]

I wonder if I could turn it upside down and suck air off the CPU?

 

[rAt.8^].bAg]

It would help pull some air out of the case, but if you have the right case fans and good airflow, the PSU shouldn't be needed for that. In my rig, I have 1x 120mm + 1x 80mm going in, 2x 120 mm + 1x 80 mm going out (plus the GPU fan going out) and my temps are good.

It also helps that the front bay covers are mesh, and mesh on most of the bottom.

http://www.coolermaster.com/products/product.php?act=detail&id=13

 

[SkaarjMaster]

Aren't full-tower cases great! I have a Lian-Li PC-71B with two "vacuum cleaner" 80mm fans blowing air in from front and four 80mm fans blowing air out back and the air from my video card is pump outside as well. Do the new PSUs still fit the back plates of the older cases?

Also, I know someone already chimed in on this issue, but I'm not going to be getting any new games for a while and will continue to play UT3, UT2004 and UT mostly with the occasional Q3, Q4, Doom3, Painkiller and Unreal2. Does it really make any difference at this point whether I go ATI or Nvidia?

 

[SkaarjMaster]

Why is that? Two 80mm fans are going to be loud, and the second fan is pretty much redundant anyway. A single large fan will cool just as efficiently, and will be much quieter (as rAt.8^].bAg has stated).

The fan pulling off the CPU is either 92mm or 120mm, but I'm not sure which. In any case, I get your point.

Thanks for clearing up the ATI/Nvidia issue a bit for these newer cards and drivers. So, is the GTX 280 the fastest single GPU card right now?

I'm also considering the Arctic Cooling Freezer EXTREME as my heatsink/fan combo right now. I forgot how much of a PITA it is to attach a fan to a Thermalright heatsink no matter how they perform. I'm not overclocking anyway.

 

[SkaarjMaster]

Mr. Doodles at newegg said the fans were too loud on his 4870s compared to the eVGA 648 core GTX 280. He also said the ATI drivers 8.10 sucked and were weak at best, but maybe that's because he was running Crossfire with two 4870s; from what I read the 8.10s are supposed to be stable with the 8.11s sucking. Interesting anyway.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130368

I also checked my presently recognized RAM out of 3GB and it shows 3GB in WinXP SP2 Home right now (I modified previous post; OK, I'm an idiot, I really do only have 3GB of RAM (two 1GB sticks, two 512MB sticks)).

 

[SkaarjMaster]

I finally took a closer look at your avatar. Cool looking avatar!

 

[rAt.8^].bAg]

Do the new PSUs still fit the back plates of the older cases?

Yes, most fit AFAIK.

Does it really make any difference at this point whether I go ATI or Nvidia?

My opinion is either flavor is OK right now, since Nv was forced to lower prices after the HD4000 series hit. So with comparable cards you're going to get similar performance for about the same $$. I would choose on the basis of driver issues for whatever games I played, etc.

 

[rAt.8^].bAg]

Mr. Doodles at newegg said the fans were too loud on his 4870s compared to the eVGA 648 core GTX 280. He also said the ATI drivers 8.10 sucked and were weak at best, but maybe that's because he was running Crossfire with two 4870s; from what I read the 8.10s are supposed to be stable with the 8.11s sucking. Interesting anyway.

I'm using 8.10 on a 4870 and it's fine. I dunno, but anyone going xFire or SLi is nuts IMO, because it gives you what - maybe 15% FPS increase for 200% cost & power requirements, and loads more hassle. Unless I hit the lottery and have a lot more patience to eff with driver sh!t, I'm never going dual cards. The chances of ATI or Nv to ever sort those probs out are about as likely as hitting the lottery too.

All he has to do is adjust the fan speed in CCC or whatever and the noise is no prob. I have mine set @ 28% for desktop and 37% for gaming o/c'ed. GPU never gets above 53C° and fan dB's are good.