Should Epic repeat the 2k3 -> 2k4 history again to save UT3?

[Grobut]

One little one I like to use is 50% of people or more didnt take 2k4 online, could the number have raised for UT3? Thats a question for Epic

The 50% one is Epic's own estimate actually, they also said that this was the reason they where developing UT3 to be much better for offline play than past UT's, they stressed that quite a few times, and how you could use a Mic offline and bots would understand your verbal orders and things of that nature, but its actually the worst one yet for offline play, and none of thouse things happened, so i doubt it has a huge offline following to be honest, i suspect most have done like me and gone back to 2K4 nad UT and all of its mods.. but not many of us offliners seem to post on forums, so its hard to say.

 

[neilthecellist]

So you expect just because those games give you playable framerates that UT3 should as well? That's simply not how it works.

1) Your videocard is still crap. 20 Shader operations per clock on a 7900 GS as opposed to 96 per clock for the weakest of the 8800 series. UT3 is extremely heavily reliant on shaders, and what's good in a singleplayer FPS game might not be good for a nearly purely multiplayer FPS like UT3. Also, if your videocard is the AGP version of the 7900 GS, it may very simply be bottlenecked. No solution there except to get a PCI-E capable motherboard and card.

2) Consider lowering your FOV. Lower FOV = Less to render = Faster framerates. It also might be hitching bad simply because your details are too high, or because you don't have enough RAM. UT3 really needs about 2 GB to be stutter-free at the highest settings.

3) Then your only choice is pretty much to lower your settings.

1) I have the PCI-E version.
2) No. And I have 2 gigabytes of RAM, DDR2 Dual Channel, thank you very much again for underestimating what my computer actually is. Windows XP Sp2.
3) No, they're already at lowest settings.

The difference between dual and quad is actually pretty small and only truly significant at higher resolutions such as 16x10.

Though that did also make me wonder what CPU Neil has... any non-dualcore will choke, and a P4 will only be marginally better than a non-HT singlecore.

What the freak are you talking about? Have you ever tried rendering on a dual core, and then comparing the rendering speed on a quad core? There's a substantial speed difference. Believe me, if you're rendering a super-duper map with lots of lights in Unreal Editor, the quad core IS going to make a difference.

As for what I have, I have an AMD 3800+ on my current machine. Yes, single-core. I render using my brother's computer, which is quad-core.

Next you're going to say, "Oh, well, it HAS to be your CPU that's causing the hitching." Can your logic be more stupid? CPU's don't cause hitching.

And for the record, I tried putting in a dual core AMD processor (2.4 ghz X 2 = 4.8 ghz) once and I still had hitching problems. So don't start with me on some stupid logic of yours, "It HAS to be blah-blah-blah"

 

[Entr0p1cLqd]

...but its actually the worst one yet for offline play...

I think that's a bit harsh tbh. Generally the bots seem a bit smarter in UT3 than they have in previous versions. However, I will concede that it is more irritating to play off-line than previous versions. But most of the irritation (for me at least) stems from the UI and the bot's taunts.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I'm not going to try to get into the middle of this, but I think what's being said is that gametypes and mutators that change the game well beyond the feel of the original retail title - at some point - cease to be related in any meaningful way to the game off of which they are based.

It's difficult to compare one to the other because TAM did indeed make up a fair portion of the people playing UT2004 online... at one given point in time. If you wanted to hop in a game resembling retail UT2004, you would have to look pretty hard.

Well, and even more, comparing a game that has been out for 8 months and it's third party content after 8 months to a game that has been out for four years and it's custom content after four years is just silly. (edit) I should also note that technically UT200X has been out for nearly 6 years and both games were pretty much the same to code for in most cases.

The point is, retail UT2004 was and is probably as unpopular as UT3 is. And no, I'm not going to try to qualify that statement. Anyone who tried to play retail UT2004 should know that was the case.

Also, Molgan, thanks for not being involved in any arguments previously. I never originally brought up game monitor. I continue bringing it up, because that is the only source I know of that still counts UT2004 players (except Gamespy...). Also, read my first paragraph here for answers to your other FACTS.

 

[Grobut]

I think that's a bit harsh tbh. Generally the bots seem a bit smarter in UT3 than they have in previous versions. However, I will concede that it is more irritating to play off-line than previous versions. But most of the irritation (for me at least) stems from the UI and the bot's taunts.

It is the fact that its more "irritating" that does it, the bots themselves are both better and worse, they navigate much better, you dont find them stuck trying to jump up a ramp thats too steep to walk on anymore for instance, that could be quite a pain in 2K4 at times, but they just dont fight fair anymore, the 1.2 patch made it better, but they still feel a bit like playing on a server where everyone has wallhacks and aimbots.

But the problems come from the UI mostly, or lack thereof, all the things you just cannot do to/with an Instant Action game anymore, and the fact that you practically have to wrestle with the interface every time you go to start a new match, so little features and options, so much pointless repitition..

UT's of old had the best botmatch play of any game, bar none! even if for no other reason than the fact that you could tailor it to your own personal liking, whatever that liking might be, but that just doesen't happen here, there is no tailoring worth mention, you can pretty much just add a bunch of bots and start a map, you can't even give the bots orders anymore, so really, this is no better than Q3A used to be offline, and that was abysmal offline compared to UT99 even back then!

And yes, thouse taunts, the taunts!! after 30 minutes of that you pray for death! but you dare not die because that means someone will taunt!!

 

[Sir_Brizz]

Instant Action complaints are quite fair, IMO. If it's supposed to be an "offline-centric game", it sure has a paltry set of offline features compared to previous games.

 

[Grobut]

The point is, retail UT2004 was and is probably as unpopular as UT3 is. And no, I'm not going to try to qualify that statement. Anyone who tried to play retail UT2004 should know that was the case.

Now that's a different argument, and that i will actually agree with! if we are purely talking stock gameplay, then i think the two titles are pretty much on par with eachother when it comes to popularity, UT3's stock gameplay might actually be better recived by most people actually, save thouse who where big fans of the 2Kx stock, but other reasons hinder its popularity as a game.

But if we talk about the two games as a whole, then 2K4 wins the popularity contest hands down, and by quite a margin, 2k4 was polished and nice, and even if you didn't like the stock gameplay it was easy to tweak the gameplay, and it came with a good compliment of mutators, and modding it was alot easier, more so because we allready knew the tech, and it quickly formed alot of communities, it was a fragmented community that played different aspects of 2K4, and different mutators/gametypes, but we all had 2K4 as a central pivot point.
UT3 on the other hand.. not so much, and we all know why so i wont bore you with the details.

Instant Action complaints are quite fair, IMO. If it's supposed to be an "offline-centric game", it sure has a paltry set of offline features compared to previous games.

Aye, i just wish they would tell us if they plan on fixing this half of the game, right now im just "between patches", allways hoping that the next one will be the one, but thus far they have definately focused on the MP.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I'm not going to argue that UT3 has more polish than UT2004 did at release. It obviously didn't. But that's not to say UT2004 was perfect either. People have found something to whine about with every UT release

The thing is, if you look at the beginning of the UT200x series (aka UT2003), it suffered from many of the problems UT3 is. It's harder to make maps/mods/mutators/models than it was before because the tech is so much more advanced, the game is not mature, many features people want are missing or broken. It's all a broken record to me, it happened with UT2003.

On the other hand, UT2003 had a lot more diversity than UT3, and by that I mostly mean that there were more gametypes and custom content worked out of the boc. I think that has hurt UT3 more than anything, personally.

 

[Grobut]

I'm not going to argue that UT3 has more polish than UT2004 did at release. It obviously didn't. But that's not to say UT2004 was perfect either. People have found something to whine about with every UT release

The thing is, if you look at the beginning of the UT200x series (aka UT2003), it suffered from many of the problems UT3 is. It's harder to make maps/mods/mutators/models than it was before because the tech is so much more advanced, the game is not mature, many features people want are missing or broken. It's all a broken record to me, it happened with UT2003.

On the other hand, UT2003 had a lot more diversity than UT3, and by that I mostly mean that there were more gametypes and custom content worked out of the boc. I think that has hurt UT3 more than anything, personally.

We can only agree, but that's the scary thing here (yes, even more scary than us agreeing twice in one day ), we all know 2K3 never really recovered from its botched release, it took 2K4 to turn it around, and even then it looked shaky for a while there in the start, and 2K3 really damaged people's confidence in Epic and the Unreal series, we lost alot of players there, including many modders, and also alot after they released 2K4 because people where angry that they had to buy the same game twice.

And now they have done it all over again.. and where does that leave us? and Unreal?

This whole thing has just been one big mess, and truth be told, i bought every UT the day they hit store shelves, no questions asked, i didn't even bother to read any reviews beforehand, such was my faith in Epic, and i was willing to view 2K3 as just an unfortunate misstep, and when UT3's beta demo hit and everyone around me where talking about how awfull it was and that UT3 was going to suck hard, i furiously defended it and told everyone "its just a demo! a BETA demo at that, the full game is going to be much more than this!", and man did my heart sink when i started the game the first time and saw how wrong i was.. after this, i'll be waiting for the reviews and asking questions before i decide on the next one.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I'll buy the next one. I've believed in them since Unreal, where this cycle started. Unreal/UT2003/UT3 have all been somewhat subpar but really fun first releases on an engine version. UT/UT2004/presumably UT3.5/4 are extremely stable, fun and optimized second games on the engine versions.

I think what it comes down to is that Epic believes that having something to play is better than waiting forever. I'm sure if UT2004 had been the sequel to UT, people would have been more accepting of it's changes. However, they also would have had to wait 5 years between games. The way it currently is, I am happy that I get to play the first game while they are working on the second one It also gives them important feedback to implement into the second game.

 

[Lethargy]

Unreal... subpar

I disagree

 

[hal]

I think you could at least make the case that Unreal's multiplayer component was subpar upon release.

 

[Molgan]

Also, Molgan, thanks for not being involved in any arguments previously. I never originally brought up game monitor. I continue bringing it up, because that is the only source I know of that still counts UT2004 players (except Gamespy...). Also, read my first paragraph here for answers to your other FACTS.

You really do your best to not understand a word I said, you obviously have a reading disability. You have been repeating the bot counting for months and you have no answers to my "facts". But never mind, we both agree on that the next UT, whenever it arrives, might save the day. This horse is dead.

 

[SonicBlade]

I think that would be an extreme but solid solution, and I would buy it again

Like Grobut said, they should review the way UT3 is installed on the PC.. I think 2k4 was better in this point because it had just one folder with everything you need on it, and the whole 'my documents' setting is a bad idea for a game thats supposed to handle lots of custom content like Unreal... keeping the UT only folder like 2k4 (but adding some new folders in there like Custom Maps, Custom Materials, etc, just for the sake of organization) would be much better imo... this and the in-game UI of course, that should grant the player much more control over his game, more options to mess around...this can't be solved by patches right?

As far as content is concerned, UT3 is good, but could've been much better. In 2k4 days, almost no game was as big as it was (5GB stock install, something like that right?), but UT3 is not like this. I was expecting a 12GB+ game when I got it, and I don't think that this amount of space is a problem for anyone now, there are much bigger games now (Stranglehold, for instance)... and being more especific, UT3 lacked some Unreal "trademarks" that shouldn't been trashed (yeah, the whole skaarj/malcolm/xan/flak monkey/combo whore/ripper thing), and for a storyline-driven game, its characters and the whole thing was too blank (look at the characters description... most are just "this character is cool and kick ass"), not to mention the lack of "classic" themes like alien-ish(Necris theme is really really cool, but UT3 still lacked the space/alien-tech feel that we had in Hall of Giants and Hyperblast)... this CAN be solved by patches/packs, although, if it'd include almost everything that the community wanted and asked for, it could get bigger (in proportion) than the ECE for 2004... wouldn't make me give up on downloading it though...

So, for a entirely new game, thats what would make me buy it (and it was kinda what happened to the unreal series when 2k4 came out to make up for 2k3)... I'm having lots of fun with UT3, but would love to see my favourite PC game to get revamped and be a huge hit on the market. Again, I'm enjoying UT3 a lot, some great maps are out and more are coming, and this topic is not a "omg bring [random stuff] back plz!!1one!" =]

ps: finally decided to post here since I lost my account some time ago (dunno what happened though...)

 

[vybz]

I think that would be an extreme but solid solution, and I would buy it again

Like Grobut said, they should review the way UT3 is installed on the PC.. I think 2k4 was better in this point because it had just one folder with everything you need on it, and the whole 'my documents' setting is a bad idea for a game thats supposed to handle lots of custom content like Unreal...

You can use the -nohomedir on your UT3 shortcut so it doesn't have to use my documents, it'll use the original UT3 folder(where you installed it) I use it, its so much better to have it like that, should be like that on default.

I would buy a revamped UT3 I personally like the gameplay better than the other UT's some of the weapons can do with some tweaking...

 

[Grobut]

You can use the -nohomedir on your UT3 shortcut so it doesn't have to use my documents, it'll use the original UT3 folder(where you installed it) I use it, its so much better to have it like that, should be like that on default.

I've heard alot of talk about that beeing a really bad idea that's prone to mess up the game, so i'd be rather hesitant to do that.

And it's still only half a fix, i hope that if they do decide to make an UT3½, that they will entirely rethink how it installs, keep it simple, go back to only having 2 .ini files we need to worry about, and make a "mod" folder like SonicBlade suggested so it's also easy to uninstall mods, that would be really nice.

 

[Sir_Brizz]

I disagree

liked Unreal, but it had just as "rushed-feeling" of a release as UT3 has. And it's multiplayer only "survived" because there were far less options back then.

 

[Sys-X]

I don't think any amount of patching is going to fix UT3. Even if they completely revamped the game, it's time is past. The only way "UT3" will gain any popularity is a re-release. If R.Flagg has had "the line drawn in the sand" and won't be buying another Epic game, perhaps that is for the best I would rather lose a few current community members if it meant a much more solid and stable game release and much more interest by the gaming community.

I hope they do it. I'll buy it again. I also hope that Epic has learned one lesson: The freaking UI matters. If they had been more open about the UI in UT3, they could have had feedback and issues resolved months prior to the game's release. Apparently, though, the UI wasn't done until a couple of weeks before the demo came out

For once I can fully agree with you ^^

 

[vybz]

I've heard alot of talk about that beeing a really bad idea that's prone to mess up the game, so i'd be rather hesitant to do that.

And it's still only half a fix, i hope that if they do decide to make an UT3½, that they will entirely rethink how it installs, keep it simple, go back to only having 2 .ini files we need to worry about, and make a "mod" folder like SonicBlade suggested so it's also easy to uninstall mods, that would be really nice.

o_!O there's nothing wrong with it :s I have been using it from the start

 

[Plutonia_Experi]

Just a little note, in UT2004 more than half servers were playing Torlan, for ONS, and for CTF were playing BridgeofFate.
The maps of the demo.
I think they made a big mistake in that **** demo they released, not only it might have turned people off, but if it did include some good ONS 2.0 map we would have loads of people to play with. If one gets addicted to the demo then will buy the full game just to try the other maps, it's that simple.

Last time I connected to UT2004, about 6 months ago, I had 10-20 servers to choose from, with reasonable ping. And it has always been this way, since it was released.
Now I have a bad connection and I cannot play at home, but just out of curiosity I went to see how many populated servers there are in UT3 for the Eurozone. Well, there were....


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