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Old 17th Nov 2001, 04:39 AM   #1
Cactus
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Cool Anti-Establishmentarianism discussion

i'm starting this thread because of firstly my personal bitterness, but more importantly to ask you what you think about our society. please do not allow this to degenerate into a religious discussion, seriously.

well i wrote this for an away message yesterday, let's skip over why, but this is the full text that i wanted to type (not enough space on AIM) share your thoughts.

-----
I'm sick and tired of it, Kids running around trying to disagree with every ****ing establishment they see, for no other reason than to whine and bitch about a society that they nevertheless continue to patronize in all its splendors and glory. They rag on the status quo for no other reason than that it is the status quo, while offering no pragmatic solutions to real world problems. They are the most spoiled and pampered of society yet they are dedicated to denouncing it out of their own boredom and their liking of the sound of their own voice. As if their constant bitching will feed one hungry child or shelter one homeless family. If you're so angry then why aren't you organizing a revolution in the hills, instead of typing on your IBM laptop sipping a Frappaccino, listening to your BSB? GET OVER IT!
-----

the main reason? well i was going through other BBS's, (ones i don't troll...) and i came across a few that really make me ****ing angry. they're made by kids around my age. well not really kids then, but still... and the strange thing is that these kids are all well-to-do kids, raised in middle class families, with money, bought their kids what they want, they're pampered, they're all in ivy league institutions.... yadda yadda. yet some of these kids, have no appreciation of what it takes to make the world turn, and constantly bitch moan whine and generally act like assholes, to anything they dont like, which happens to be everything.

i was most offended by some of these kids who are constantly ragging on Rudy Giuliani. why? because firstly i've always supported Rudy, because i've lived in NYC for a hell of a long time and i remember my dad getting the business end of a revolver shoved in his face, and me almost getting stabbed in the subway during the dinkins administration, and oh yeah, our house was burglerized when we had literally no money in the bank. fun ****ing fun. Rudy cleaned all taht up and i'm eternally grateful. Second, Rudy is the greatest mayor in new york history, barring from contention with fiorello laGuardia. he's had problems with the police, yes, one transit worker strike yes. but even before 9-11, he's done more for the city already, in an 8 year span, than david dinkins and ed kosh could have done in ten lifetimes. and after 9-11, for the sake of FU-CKING SOLIDARITY, we should at least be behind him. Yet these kids, who LIVE in NYC, have the audacity to criticize him, at a time like this, take his quotes (knowingly and deliberately) out of context, try to bash him, and denouce things like the time square initiative (which incidentally, removed the whole fuking red light district from middle of manhattan) HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BITCH ABOUT GETTING PORN SHOPS OUT OF A PLACE LIKE TIME SQUARE?!?! it"s like complaining about getting the graffiti off the streets of harlem, or removing raw sewage from the grand canyon. obvoiusly good things, yet these kids try to pick faults out of them. WHY!?! i ask, WHY!?!?! like they can handle something like 9-11? if they were mayor of NYC and that happened, most likely you'd find them in their office hanging off a beam off their own intestines the next day. they have had 2 months to think about the actions of the government during the crisis, RUDY HAD 2 seconds, it was fuking real time. WHO ARE THEY TO SAY THEY KNOW BETTER?!

what's this world coming to? these kids (rightfully adults now, 18+) will disagree with everything and anything they come across, simply for the fact that it is not theirs. they are priviledged children, not born into poverty or any such thing. they are lucky enough to be born in a society which allows them to actualize far more than others. yet they sit on their asses and b!tch all day.

firstly there's far worse problems in the world than the corruption of the american media. kids in uganda are running around with their hands and feet cut off. that's worse than CNN giving bad footage.

secondly these kids patronize the very society they whine so much about. they wear name brand clothing, they go to ivy league schools, the stuff they eat, the water they drink, the air they breathe, all supplied by the powers to be. yet none of these kids are even willing to acknowledge the good things that has come from the collective will of a hundred million souls. nor are they willing to take arms and seriously fight against the tyranny and oppression they in such loud tones rant about. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT OR GO HOME.

don't get me wrong, i think there are plenty of things wrong with the government's policies. but while i criticize, i'm not all words, and i don't do it indiscriminantly. i can recognize when the government does good things, and i can acknowledge when the government tries hard to deal with a crisis, i can fully appreciate it. in fact, i hardly ever talk about my "resentment" towards the government, unless i'm talking about specific instances of injustices. why? because what i feel towards the government is not really resentment at all, i can tell both the right and the wrong of government policy, in fact, in school i'm studying the system, to learn to work with the system, to institute changes which i think are necessary to help more people. i am workign with the system to make it better, whereas they are working against the system to no end at all.

i dont' classify myself as patriotic to this government. nor will i tell someone to shut up if they are addressing a particular grievance against a particularly problematic policy, something like the DMCA or the SSSCA. i know history well enough to judge the good things from the bad. i remember in another post i wrote that "while i criticize the government, i never failed to appreciate the fact that i CAN criticize it, that i have the right to do that, and that alone makes this country worth living in." the government is far from perfect, and in its current state, i find it difficult to swear my allegiance to it, over my allegiance to humanity, but at least i'm doing something to help change it.

my understanding is that in this sick and twisted world, some people just don't know who they are, and they can only define who they are by tearing down others, not unlike bin Laden, who would have been an unknown if he didn't start blowing sh!t up. they're sad pathetic people.

so ends my bitter rant.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 05:01 AM   #2
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 06:11 AM   #3
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Damn. That's a hell of a post. Let me see if I can at least point at the source of the problem you're seeing, if not completely define it. Take a moment to think about a simple little poem my granfather related when I was a kid -

As a rule, a man's a fool;
When it's hot he wants it cool.
When it's cool he wants it hot;
Always wanting what is not.

I've had at least 20 years to realize the truth in this, so let it sink in for a minute.

Apart from that, I think that a difference in eastern/western philosophy may be playing a role in your outrage here as well. I don't really know to what extent your upbringing was "eastern", but you probably recognize that part of the "western" way of life is accepting that kids are self-centered little snots. This acceptance makes for a rough transition from "kid" to "adult" in some ways, and one extension of this is the fact that some people have trouble letting go of the "the world is out to get me" thing. In fact, I suspect that some never do. From what I know of it, eastern thought tends to be much more pragmatic than western - I imagine that your parents had much less patience for the sort of crap that Americans have. As a result, I'm guessing you achieved a level of maturity ahead of these other kids - maybe it could be thought of as an advanced perspective, rather than maturity.

In short - we don't expect our kids to have foresight. We don't expect our kids to be able to "put themselves in someone else's shoes". We don't expect kids to understand what social responsibility really is. We might teach kids to understand cause and effect, but we don't expect them to understand it until they're much older. The chain of development generally then includes a period where kids rail blindly (and irresponsibly) against any real or perceived injustice (to themselves first, then to others eventually), and expect a solution to drop into place just because they do. I might be completely wrong about the role of your upbringing in this, but it seems a likely explanation to me. Western parents generally just "allow the process to happen", with pushes and nudges now and then. I'm guessing that your parents made a willful effort to ram you through it (and succeeded). Now you're seeing "adults" going through stages that you left behind years ago, and it irritates you that people with the knowledge of adults are behaving like what you expect from kids.

Again, I might be off a bit here and there, and I don't think I've actually defined what bothers you, but I do think I've pointed in it's direction. Make of it what you will.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 06:48 AM   #4
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People attacking authority simply because its there is dangerous and infuriating. I know exactly what Cactus means. Its the natural "fly the nest" instinct in play, ( which is also why adolescents and their parents tend not to get on well )...people want to be independent and not rely on others, but they dont actually have the balls to break away from society or do something about it so they whine about it instead.

The problem is that people start looking for and picking apart any flaws in the establishment, whatever they consider that to be, and they can make a very persuasive argument. They of course ignore all the good points ( like in the Guiliani example. ) But someone can make a persuasive argument about anything, you have to step back and look at the realitys of it : Society cant be doing that much wrong, 50 years ago the current levels of equality and freedom in the world would have been a pipe dream.

As Cactus says, the worst part of it all is the fact that these would be revoloutionarys ignore the real problems in the world because they can't see beyond the end of their nose. 24,000 people die each day through lack of food, millions die each year from diseases that would be curable in the west, and yet instead of doing anything about them ( or even talking about them ) they decide to take issue with things that pale in comparison.

Of course, there are big problems in western society too. But this isn't the fault of the existence of government or the fact that it has too much power, its the fault of all of us. Human nature is selfish and heartless when it comes down to it, and the more unchecked freedom you give people, the more they take it away eventually : look at communist russia. The soloutions to societys problems are not to destroy the establishment but to strengthen and improve it, ultimatly leading to a benevolent dictatorship perhaps.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 08:08 AM   #5
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screw the anarchists. capitalism ownzme
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 08:31 AM   #6
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Cope : Literally

Cactus : I read somewhere ( it might have been one of your posts actually...) that Guiliani personally helped to dig the survivors out of the WTC just a few hours afterwards and got trapped in a building by wreckage...how anyone can criticize someone that would do that, most politicians would settle for attending a public memorial but he went to dozens of funerals as well...the american government may have its share of corruption and incompetents, but Guiliani is a great man.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 09:18 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by mister_cope
screw the anarchists. capitalism ownzme
capitalism is institutionalized egoism.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 09:36 AM   #8
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you dont like it? then feel free to donate your precious computer to the community. or me for that matter.


personally, i love the fact that if i wanted to/get lucky enough, i too can become a corporate fat cat. and that, is true equality folks...
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 09:47 AM   #9
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Sounds more like propability to me.

And I don't like any kind of extreme. It's most propably unreasonable.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 11:27 AM   #10
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points well taken, alas i have work to go to at noon, i'll be back at 2 to write back.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 12:38 PM   #11
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Cactus: I totally agree with everything you said up there. I understand your frustration because I feel it too. People running around latching on to any cause just to feel important. People sittin around waiting to be offended so they can sue someone over it. Celebrating their good fortune when they get into a car wreck and can sue for "pain and suffering". Leeches, every one of them.
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Liberalism should be banned.

Jesus pwnz

I kid proofed the whole house but they still get in!

I'm mentioning oosyxxx here as a thank you for mentioning me in his sig. I DO feel better.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 01:36 PM   #12
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"personally, i love the fact that if i wanted to/get lucky enough, i too can become a corporate fat cat. and that, is true equality folks..."

If it was that easy, then why wouldnt everyone do it? Its the pure luck of the draw.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 01:44 PM   #13
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No, it's more effort than most folks are willing to put forth.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 01:49 PM   #14
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"I wanna be, ANARCHY!"

**** the establishment...........
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 01:52 PM   #15
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im not on the same level as you guys. not saying that im stupid, but you can phrase stuff better without letting your anger get the best of you. so i think i will sidestep this thread
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 02:03 PM   #16
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Fight the war, **** the norm, sign to Sony for a 7 figure payoff
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 02:08 PM   #17
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Cool

I wouldnt have said so, lucifix.
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 02:12 PM   #18
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Der Untermensch

Hey you on public assistance
Why don't you get a job?
Sell some dope and buy some pride
It's the only thing you couldn't rob

Socioparasite

How does it feel to live for free?
Get off society's back
Skells like you allowed to live
You wonder why we're taxed

Socioparasite

Getting ****ed up on Classon Avenue
Smoking crack and drinking booze
Spike in your arm
No money for food
But there's plenty of gas in your BMW

There's a dopewhore waiting at home
Dealing your **** on the chemophone
Poor Tawana gets born with a birth defect
But it only increases your welfare check

Been doing some thinking and I have an answer
To arrest the spreading cancer
Send you back to where you came from
Get the **** rid of you (sub)human scum

If you don't pay taxes you shouldn't vote
So get in line and get back on the boat
I'd love to tear down all those projects
Kiss my ass home relief reject

Waste of life
You're a waste of life
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 02:14 PM   #19
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Question

what song is your sig from? i know its sabbath but cant think of the song..........
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Old 17th Nov 2001, 02:32 PM   #20
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Smile

Cornucopia from Volume 4. A great album apart from the lamentable "Changes".
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