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View Poll Results: Inf-bootcamp : good idea ?
I like it, count me in ... 13 38.24%
Yes, but I don't have the time to help ... 11 32.35%
I don't care, let them learn on their own like I did ... 6 17.65%
bad idea ... 4 11.76%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 16th Oct 2001, 03:02 AM   #1
A_Rimmerlister
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Cool Inf-bootcamp : teaching new players how to play ...

The basic idea is this :
Infiltration has a lot of unspoken/invisble "rules" that new players are not going to learn all by themselves.
You could say they might be able to learn this on public servers, but some people prefer to play instead or bitch instead of really helping the newbies ...

While a 'promotional video' & other advertising we can do might make more people aware of this ultra-cool thing called 'Infiltration for UT', it does not give us access to the kind of player we'd like to see. (at least that's my opinion)

I think the best way to promote Inf, is to organize a (weekly?) 'bootcamp' where "veterans" can teach the new players how to play ...
Something like the 'PUG' (pick-up games) as organised for UnF, but aimed at the 'new players'.

// PUG description :
- at a designated time players join an IRC-channel
- from the available players two "leaders" are chosen
- those leaders take turns in choosing a player for 'their' team
- the players for each team join a separate IRC-channel where they discuss 'tactics' & maps they'd like to play
- after both teams have had time to discuss tactics a server & map is chosen and the game begins ...

In this form the non-clan-players can get a feel for the game as a clanwar, without all the "pressure" of joining a real clan.

// ideas, comments, volunteers (already? ) ?
post them in this thread ...

Saying you like the idea is the easy part, but who would be willing & able to do something ?
There'd need to be servers, admins for those severs, web-hosting for the inevitable site, etc. ...
You probably need to have a lot of time and no real-life(tm), altough with enough volunteers ... (damn stop dreaming )
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Old 16th Oct 2001, 04:25 AM   #2
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Hmm another project to **** up the gazillion other projects i'm planning on doing something for
If possible i'll convert FM's for INF use.
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Old 16th Oct 2001, 04:43 AM   #3
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heh, i actually suggested this as a half-joke a while back, as a task for the AFA to take on, along with any other qualified volunteers...
never got as detailed as this though...
you can count me in fer sure...
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Old 16th Oct 2001, 05:04 AM   #4
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Talking

Let's see how many 'volunteers' & such we can count on before we start making real plans.
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Old 16th Oct 2001, 05:20 PM   #5
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Question bad idea ?

Please provide a reason if you think this is a "bad" idea ...

*bump*
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Old 16th Oct 2001, 05:32 PM   #6
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I say let em learn on their own...
but thats me

Why are you going to teach rules to folks?
so they will become victems of them?

unless the games mechanics enforce a bad result for not living by the law, then they will be at a disadvantage while their untrained peers use l33t skills to rise to the top.

but as I said, thats just my view of things.

its a good Idea tho, I wish you guys luck
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Old 16th Oct 2001, 05:41 PM   #7
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Volunteers

Heck, why not? I've been around for a while (I just haven't posted much).

Count me in I dont really have any skills, but I know I can help with something.

I'm pretty well-known in the multiplayer-game so maybe I could scrounge up some volunteers there?
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Old 16th Oct 2001, 07:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by RAZZ
[B]I say let em learn on their own...
but thats me

letting them learn on their own is what creates the kind of n00bs and other loosers that Inf (and any other game) can do without ...
Letting ppl play on their own is what gave TFC it's conc-jumpers.
It's what gave Quake the rocketjumpers.
That in itself may not have been bad, but since Infiltration is about trying to be realistic (as possible) players should not exploit the rules of the game, but that's exactly what players are doing already at the moment. If given a choice people prefer roll-playing over roleplaying, and since Inf requires 'roleplayers' to be unique ...

Quote:
Why are you going to teach rules to folks?
so they will become victems of them?

unless the games mechanics enforce a bad result for not living by the law, then they will be at a disadvantage while their untrained peers use l33t skills to rise to the top.

but as I said, thats just my view of things.

its a good Idea tho, I wish you guys luck
DM is something anyone can play.
TDM in UT is just DM with only half the opponents.
A game like CTF is simple to understand, because there are few rules.
But TDM in true Inf-style isn't that easy to play & learn, because that requires the kind of communication that's near impossible on a real public server.
Especially if half of your team simply runs of on their own, playing the game as if it's just another TDM.
While the other half simply wants to play the game instead of 'teaching' the new players how to play.

Especially if you see the "**** whore", "lamer" and such comments without even understanding why such stuff is considered 'bad form' by forumregulars (or worse by the more hardcore ultra-realists )...
(the bad side is going to be :they're going to tell people to 'go through bootcamp' instead of RTFM ... )

I'm tired of people complaining about the lack of teamplay & stuff on the public servers. If you think that's a problem, then do something besides complaining ... (that's my opinion)

There definitely are rules the game-mechanics can't enforce ever !
Here's a simple one : what is a realistic loadout ?
With the current bulk-system and other bugs, there are some pretty impossible loadouts that can be used at the moment.
Why do people scream at me when I jump on the roof ?

At its worst I think a regular 'pick-up-game' allows non-clan-players to play in a 'clanwar'-like game without the inevitable pressure that mercenaries in InfWar (if that's still alive ) would feel.
At its best it will be the kind of promotion that could put Infiltration on the top of the heap. It could become an extended manual ...

Infiltration already has a relatively newbie friendly forum.
It should have the newbie-friendly servers to match.

//--
and before anyone says : "That's an unrealistic and impossible dream "
Yes, I know.
But given enough volunteers we should give this kind of thing a realistic chance.
// end rant for now
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Old 16th Oct 2001, 07:43 PM   #9
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Thumbs up

What would be very cool, is to have an online training ground where new players could learn the basics (i.e.: moving, leaning).

It would allow new players to collaborate with other players to develop a feeling for the controls and weapons in a less important environment then having to get the feeling over a series of online matches.

This could be another unique feature for infiltration, I (personally) haven't seen anything along the lines of a detecated online training system.

Note: actual damage detection would have to be disabled while in training, otherwise it would just turn into another deathmatch scenario.

Another option could be to use the upcomng EAS system, to have a series of training stages, moving basics, crouch & prone, leaning, operating weapons, grenades, and have the last few stages actual combat situations deeply involving teamplay.
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Old 17th Oct 2001, 12:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
letting them learn on their own is what creates the kind of n00bs and other loosers that Inf (and any other game) can do without ...
inf dident make me the player I am now, I was already set in my ways.
the noobs and losers you speak of where bad in behavior long befor they arrived here.

Now dont take what I say the wrong way, its just Ive seen this kinda attempt befor in other games.

players that want to conform, will do it with or without you. dont worry about them.
its the players that think they got everything figured out who dont come looking for help. these are the ones we need to get straitened out.

the game has to first penalize them for poor tactics.
without that you cant reach them.

a guy rushing with a single pistol or knife wont look for help if hes consistently leading the scoreboard.
likewise a guy with 4 rifles on his back wont see the light if your tips dont visibly improve his game.
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Old 17th Oct 2001, 02:20 AM   #11
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// DooMfreak :
that's what I was part of what I was thinking about ...
Altough maps made for that stuff could be used off-line too.

// RAZZ :
I agree ( ), the already lost causes can't be helped, but the problem is that the few not-so-hopeless might learn the bad habits from them. In this way they at least have a chance to experience the good stuff before turning to the dark side.
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Old 17th Oct 2001, 07:20 AM   #12
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thats where your wrong I think.
youve gotta focus on them too.
you either negate the problem eliment, or try to correct them with the game itself.

new players listen to those who get good scores.
unless you can give them results, youve got a problem getting their attention.

This dosent need to be said, but the rusher and weapons crammer out there can get results.


what I suggest is forming a class with a version of yurches mutator, maybe somethign that scores hits but dosent kill the player. (like freeze tag)
call is miles gear if you want

then see to it and other servers run yurches mutie in the mean time, while we wait to see what the next updates like.
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Old 17th Oct 2001, 07:53 AM   #13
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// lost causes :
I think we only disagree on the exact definition.
The ranking does allow for bad role-models.
A new scoreboard (without the players sorted according to their 'score') is a good idea for regular inf as well.

// "Miles gear" / freeze-tag / paintball :
:LOL: Not a bad idea actually to have the 'newbie'-team have such an effect, while the 'red'-team (or whatever an enemyforce is called during combattraining IRL) would suffer the official effects.

The problem is that I don't want to force new players to download some additional stuff if it's possible to avoid it.
'Real aim' is small enough for for 56k'ers it to be auto-downloaded from the servers, but bigger mutators or new maps should be avoided IMHO.

But no matter how good the game itself & a mutator could enforce those rules, not everyone of these can be enforced by pure logic. How would you prevent a player from climbing a roof (if it's considered to be a 'bad' place) ? That's something no mutator could fix and it might even be impossible to fix the map.
Waiting for a patch to fix such 'minor' bugs just takes too long.
For that part you need a player/admin-type in the game, someone who could TK without penalty for this purpose only (which is a very dangerous option to give to the wrong type of person).
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Old 17th Oct 2001, 11:28 AM   #14
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The only real problem with the idea is that most players who come to INF already are standard UT players. So when they come over they play with UT tactics and expect them to be acceptable. Until the INF team just makes these things impossible to do, they will do it.

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Old 17th Oct 2001, 01:23 PM   #15
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the 'RealAim'-mutator already prevents part of that behaviour I think, altough 2.87 might make the mutator obsolete
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Old 17th Oct 2001, 04:53 PM   #16
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what prevents a player from making tactical errors like climbing on a roof?

well... depends on if thats really a tactics mistake or just bad form. people have been shooting from rooftops as long as there have been guns/bows/spears/rocks.

I personaly think that you should be able to go anywhere you want to, so long as where your going is within the bounds of what the map maker intended.

(roof by way of ladder or dropping down from window etc = ok. roof by way of clipping error in map or assorted bug = not ok )

if its a bad tacticle error for that particular situation, the game will tell them by the number of times they get shot in the next few seconds.
if its in bad taste... well thats a totaly different argument

------------

I think times are almost ripe for a miles gear mutator.
my thinking it works like feeze tag.
you can scurry around till someone shoots you, then instead of dropping you freeze in that spot.
when the game master unlocks all the players, they can move again.
it removes the "death effect" from the students minds and takes away the grudges that can build during a lesson.
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Old 17th Oct 2001, 05:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Rimmerlister
'Real aim' is small enough for for 56k'ers it to be auto-downloaded from the servers, but bigger mutators or new maps should be avoided IMHO.
uh-oh.
New version weighs in about 379k. Getting bigger too.
As opposed to ~70k...
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Old 17th Oct 2001, 05:47 PM   #18
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Cool

Yikes!
You really should think of splitting it into multiple mutators if possible
You might want to kill some comments to keep the size small.
At least I think they are still in the 'compiled' version of the scripts, so shortening them a little could help.
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Old 18th Oct 2001, 03:37 AM   #19
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I think that's a great idea. Girlfriend & job keeps me from having any sort of "regular" play time, so I can't help.

I've said it before & I'll say it again. When I first started playing, someone (don't remember who) told me to use pistol only loadout for a while. It helps you to be carefull and move properly. Also, nothing makes you try to aim harder when you've got a bunch of peeps running around with full auto... it makes every shot count.

To tie this in w/ the tread, have them try this during Boot Camp. Have half the team go out fully loaded & the other half pistol. It also helps teamwork cause you really don't want to get caught with your pants down sort of speak with a M9.

Then, after they gain experience, people will accuse them of using aimbots & they will have become full fledged members of the INF community.
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Old 18th Oct 2001, 08:51 AM   #20
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You're all assuming newbies will want to do this, no chance. Think about it, would you play a game where first of all you have to go through a 'boot-camp'. What will force players to act in a certain way is game design. If you don't allow players to climb on roofs, they won't, making running and gunning impossible will stop the AK drum n00bs. At the moment you can do things in INF that aren't realistic and people will exploit them, regardless of if they are newbies or not. Fix the game first, then newbies will get their arses kicked for a few days until they learn. It will also solve the bug exploiters problem.
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