More Gun Questions

[the vrrc]

Alright, with all this stuff about 45 and 9.mm and 50 BMG and everything, my head hurts. Could someone explain in simple, non gun fanatic terms the difference between 7.62 (?), 50 BMG rounds, etc that are in INF? This is all too confusing to me... what is strongest, etc....

[NotBillMurray]

Look in the armory, and then to the ammunition list. They include information about the muzzle energy and velocity. These are only some basic factors in a munition's performance. Also important, but not documented in the armory, is the bullet's behavior when it encounters soft (flesh) and hard (armor) targets. For example, the 5.7mm bullet is built to pass straight through objects with little flattening. This means that armor is far less effective against it. But when it hits an unarmored target, it just creates a straight path through the target and only kills if it hits a vital organ. A 5.56 on the other hand will tumble, creating a huge cavity in the target. This can be instantly fatal.

Rumor has it that some extremely high velocity rounds can kill with a shockwave through the circulatory system, but I can't say if this is true for sure.

I'm sure Gryphon can lecture to a great extent about the various rounds and their advantages and disadvantages.

[RogueLeader]

In basic terms:

7.62 mm: common sniper rifle caliber. The rounds are 7.62 mm wide and 51mm long.

.50 BMG: these are 12.7 mm wide and 99 mm long. Don't get shot by one, you won't get a chance to feel the pain.

.45 ACP: these are used in pistols. Nice and powerful

9 mm: Just don't shoot your eye out. These pistol rounds are usually weaker than other calibers because they are usually subsonic (I think, but you can't trust your thoughts when you go this long without sleep).

Weakest to strongest really depends on the target, whether they are armored or not, and other factors, but generally I would say, from weakest to strongest, it would be: 9mm, .45, 7.62, .50 BMG

[Cap'n Beeb]

Actually, not ALL 9mm are sub sonics, but you can get 'em in that way Rogue

But ya, check the Ammunition page on the armory for some info, its a good source

[DEFkon]

screw the ammo page.
http://www.calweb.com/~haas/ammoguide/

download or run the java app.

Its a program that gives you information, comparisons, images, and on various small arms ammo. For 170Kb its' worth a download.

but in gerneral

There are 4 catagories of ammo in any particular chambering.
FMJ - full metal jacket - standard military. Offers good penetration and knock down power

JHP - jacket hollow point - typically used by Law enforcement - bullet collapses on itself on impact which has very good lethality on unarmored tagets, but very poor on armored.

AP - Ammor Piercing - speciality - Designed with a hard bullet it's high density helps it "cut" through armor, but doesn't offer very good stoping power on unarmored personal.

tracer - the bullet burns a chemical that causes it glow through the air. The effect looks somewhat like a "star wars" laser blast and is designed to help you aim by being able to see how the bullet traves. On the down side it also gives your position away.

--- ammo is also genneraly put into 1 of two catagories.
sub-sonic: bullets travel slower than the speed of sound. They dont have very long range, but are optimial for use with supressors (aka silencers) because the bullets dont make a loud noise as they travel through the air.

Super sonic: Most rifle rounds fall into this catagory. The bullets travel faster than the speed of sound so they crack the sound barrier when fired. Because the move so fast they're good for hitting targets that are farther away.

In infiltration you have these types of ammo

9mm Luger (parabellum) - M9/Berreta - Very common in pistols, and sub machine guns. Nothing very special here. Invented for the german Luger of ww2, it turned out to be very effective cause it didn't offer alot of recoil and its good at short range.

.40 simth & wesson - Mp5/40 - More bang than a 9mm but less than a .45acp.

.357 magnum. - Desert Eagle - Once was coined as the most powerfull handgun round in the world, it still offers alot of power today.

5.7 X 22mm - Five seven - P90 - Unique cartridge invented in the earlly 90's. It's actually thiner than a 9mm, but is longer. It's supposed to be very good at armor piercing, but it's not very damaging. I like to think of it as a AP .22

--

.223 rem (5.56 X 45mm Nato) - First designed for the M16. The round is a light high velocity type. today its considered the standard round used in all assault rifles (at least nato nations)

.308 winchester (7.62X51mm Nato) - Older than the .223 this was the first Nato round. Baiscally designed to replace the .30-06 from the early 1900's. Today because it's large heavy bullet in an with alot of bang, it's only used sniper rilfes since it's not as easily effect by things like wind which would effect the .223 It's also got more power. For a while it was used alot in assualt rifles ( though some would call them battle rifles ) but it was generally considered over kill since the recoil was too harsh for an automatic, it's longer range wasn't being taken advantage of by iron sights.. ect

7.62 X 39 russian - Russians used this round for their AK47's. It's just a little less powerfull than a .30-30 but more powerfull than a 357 Mag.

.50BMG Originally designed as an anti-tank round for the Browning m2HB WW1. It's still used today as an anti material, and anti personal weapon. It's half and inch wide, and about 5 inches long. it's used in some sniper rifles, but mostly in heavy machine guns like those found on tanks.

i think that's all of them..

[jaunty]

When you talk about weak and strong pistol rounds, you have to define "strongest"

Are you talking about penetration, or the damage that is caused.

For example: The SS109 (5.7mm, as used in the FN FiveseveN) penetrates about 3 cubic f<u></u>ucktons, but it does minimal damage to the target.

On the other hand, a .45ACP will probably not penetrate kevlar, but 2 rounds of .45 JHP will kill a man if they strike him in the chest.

Same goes for rifle rounds, but not such an extreme.

only 2 things matter when choosing a round.

1) Penetration
2) Cavitation

You need the right ratio between the two for an effective round. As it stands now, .357sig, 9mm Parabellum and .40S&W are pretty damn close, but I'll load up a .357sig before any other pistol round.

[Iceman]

cept everyone knows if the bullet comes from a glock it's like being hit with a 105mm howitzer, cept the bullet will only fall 2 inches over 10,000 yards .

Iceman.

[jaunty]

I've only got 3 questions.

1) What sort of crack are you on?
2) How much of it are you on?
3) Where do I get some?

[Iceman]

i made it myself, tis good s<b></b>hit .

Iceman.

[the vrrc]

Ah, thank you very much.

[RogueLeader]

Hehe, "****tons", that's such a great word.

[jaunty]

Yeah... i vote that "f<u></u>uckton" replaces the newton.

[Eliwar]

Straight from the Northwest Tactical Firearms Training/American Firearms Institute class booklet I got when I took my handgun training course:

Ballistics

LWC: Lead wad cutter, primarily used for target shooting it will cut a clean hole through a paper target with no uneven edges. Very easy to score in competition

LSWC: generally used by any shooter that wants to save money and reload their own ammunition. It's a great practive and competition bullet. It'll produce similar results as the LWC on paper targets. Neither the LWC or the LSWC are recommended as a personal defense round.

LRN: Lead round nose, this bullet is used by people who like to save money and reload their own ammunition. This bullet will produce a semi frayed circle through a paper target and is not as easy to score under match conditions. Primarily a practice bullet for semi-autos.

FMJ: full metal jacket, this is a copper jacketed lead round nose bullet that is primarily used by the military. You'll also find this type of bullet used by amnunition manufacturers and sold as generic ammunition for general use.

JHP: jacketed hollow point, this will be the most widely used term, and the most widely used type of bullet for self defense. Every manufacturer has a bullet design that is unique to them. As you look at these bullet, take not of the various size holes in the end of the bullets. This may have an effect on how this particular round may feed in your semi-automatic handgun. Of these, each bullet is basically a lead bullet with some type of hacket surrounding the lead and forming the hollow point cavity. Each will do a very good job in a defensive situation.

JSP: Jacket soft point, this bullet is best suited as a hunting bullet. It's a lead bullet that has a copper jacket approximately half way up the tip. This type of bullet is not made by the manufacturers in a wide range of calibers. In addition to hunting, it also make an excellent self defense bullet.


Pistol Rounds

__________avg. Muzzle velocity___avg. Muzzle energy (f/lbs)
.380 acp.......986...............................197
38 special.....943...............................248
.357 mag......1239.............................520
9mm.............1146.............................357
40 S&W........1175.............................481
45 acp..........1052.............................473
10mm...........1166.............................543
44 mag.........1258.............................806


ugh. damn scanner. took too long to type this...

[Iceman]

see how l337 the .40 S&W is compared to your .45 jaunty?

Iceman.

[jaunty]

Considering I'm using COR-BON's .45 Magnum +P loads at the moment, I think you should just check what you said.

I hear it outperforms the .44 mag

[NotBillMurray]

Yep, if their figures are to be trusted, it has 820ft/lbs muzzle energy at the same muzzle velocity as a regular JHP 45. How can they do that? I just can't see how such a performance gain can be claimed. Perhaps someone more ballistically inclined than me can help out.

[DeadeyeDan[ToA]]

Well in order to have more energy without increasing velocity, you'd need a heavier slug. That by itself would decrease velocity, so they probably coupled the heavy slug with stronger, faster burning gunpowder in order to make it as fast as the regular JHP.

[NotBillMurray]

But the math seems to state that it would be double the mass, unless I've left my physics back at the door it's mass*velocity^2 / 450,000 something. If the velocity is constant they would need double the mass.

[Iceman]

the way i work out ME is: MV*MV / 7000 / 64.32 * projectile weight = Muzzel Energy in ft/lbs

Iceman.

[Gryphon]

Oy, seems that every few months this particular thread pops up yet again. Some good info here, some not. I'm not about to start discrediting anyone though, I'll let you guys figure it out.