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Old 29th Jul 2001, 01:59 AM   #1
BlueSniper
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Civilians! I solved the problem!

I was thinking about having a civilian addition based game mode.

CAB (Civillian Adittion Based) would work like this:

spawn random civillians. bot controlled, unnarmed, low poly, avoidant type civillians. they would be spawned in random places on any sort of 45- degree surface. yes, that would include ontop of buildings, but thats humorus gameplay.
the whole point of this is that for the blue team to score +1 point for every civillian killed, and the red team members to get -10 points for every civillian the red team members kills. the reason such a large number is chosen is due to the fact that red team WILL NOT WANT TO KILL CIVILLIANS. this way, a blue team member can take hostage a civilian to save his ass, and a red team member would have to use his tactical knowlage to solve the situation.
once all civillians are killed, or all red team members are killed: the blue team wins. once all the blue team members are killed: the red team wins.

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Old 29th Jul 2001, 04:20 AM   #2
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Red face

Blue would get too big an advantage IMHO.
Especially if a few civilians spawned near their base ...
The blue team can shoot the grenades & stuff like they did before, while the red-team had to be careful.

I think that if both had the same disadvantage (-10 pts/civilian killed) then *everyone* would have to be careful what & where they shoot ...

But a mutator which could add civilians in the same way that the Monster-mutator does still is a good idea.
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Old 29th Jul 2001, 04:30 AM   #3
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if everyone didnt want to kill civillians, then what is the point of protecting them? I guess there should be a "terrorist team" and you can check the teams you want.

and how you said that blue team can use grenade launchers and grenades, and the red team cant, that devellopes more skill.
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Old 29th Jul 2001, 04:33 AM   #4
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How about if blue had restrictions to their loadout, that way they would have that much of an advantage
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Old 29th Jul 2001, 04:39 AM   #5
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that is to complicated to program
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Old 29th Jul 2001, 10:34 AM   #6
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well i think it's not that easy to implement civilians...
-you need a new model with new animations [you don't want to let the civilians run around as if they carried a gun when they don't, do you?]
-you need tons of new skins and faces [it looks kind of boring if they're all the same]
-the speed would go down immensely, just see how inf slows down when you play with more than 16 bots, it's kind of the same for civilians [even if they have reduced polys, there's still a lot of AI computing going on]

i think the inf team said they'll have civilians at some time but i'm pretty sure that that doesn't happen before unreal2/warfare
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Old 29th Jul 2001, 10:42 AM   #7
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Question

What about if 4-5 civilians spawned with the red side and they had to escort them into the blue base? It'd be a sort of escort through enemy lines type thing. They'd switch sides every round, and you'd get 4-5 points for every civ you got into the opposing base, if someone killed a civ they were meant to be protecting they'd get -10, and for anyone who kills anyone else, it'd just be 1 point. That way it would be worth trying to get the civilians through as it would be much more rewarding, and it would still be worth using a civ for cover
Or maybe if anyone who killed a civ in this situation got -10 points, then everyone would use them for cover , that would be as if the civilians were valuable to both sides (they were scientists being kidnapped or something).
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Old 29th Jul 2001, 10:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
there's still a lot of AI computing going on
Wouldn't civilians only need path navigation, someone to follow, and a little bit of run-around-crazy code? All the tactical AI and shooting tactics, team work, inventory pickup etc could be removed, that should help FPS quite a bit...I agree it would be quite a lot of work though
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Old 29th Jul 2001, 12:02 PM   #9
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All they would need to do is follow theteam protecting them, and if you don't want them to follow you, you just press your use key, and they stand still. The code would be very small, and easy to make.
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Old 29th Jul 2001, 12:56 PM   #10
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The coding should be easy (although didn't tactical ops have problems with hostages? hmmm) but in total, including all the models, skins and animation it would be quite a bit of work (thats what I meant in my last post)
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Old 29th Jul 2001, 01:57 PM   #11
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Does anybody really want civilians? Wouldn't they evacuate in case of war anyway? Maybe we should start a poll on how many people ACTUALLY want civilians. I for one wouldn't want them.
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Old 29th Jul 2001, 02:30 PM   #12
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I'm talking about a sepirate gamemode, like DM, AS, CAB. if you dont like that gamemode, dont play it.

in urban warfare, civilians are all over the place.
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Old 30th Jul 2001, 11:58 PM   #13
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i for one wouldnt mind seeing an option that allows spectators to play as civilians, with one team that gets a bonus for protecting them, and one that doesnt, but doesnt get a bonus for killing them. true hostage situations could arise, with realistic hostages and bystanders.
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Old 31st Jul 2001, 01:26 AM   #14
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Instead of giving blue such a huge advantage, how about you make it that red loses 5 points for every civy kill, and blue loses 1. That way, blue won't want to kill them, but still have an advantage for hostages...
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Old 31st Jul 2001, 03:37 AM   #15
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I think it’s a cool idea, I agree with reaper in that civilians don’t carry guns, but what if you were to have a map with a bunch of houses in a naborhood, and they were all locked with people inside. The bad terrorist team would have to find the keys "or triggers" to open to house doors to get in and kill the people, in the mean time, this would give the good guys/military police time to kill off the terrorist, and the game would be much more real.
However, it would be the "Keys" that would need to spawn in different locations, to avoid players becoming familiar with there where-abouts.


Or/ Also, you could have people being held safe in a police station, with the police inside protecting them, while the other team tries to break in. "Like in the terminator"

Last edited by Starstreams; 31st Jul 2001 at 03:48 AM.
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Old 31st Jul 2001, 08:53 AM   #16
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Wow, civillian game mode. Sounds cool. More things to shoot.

I agree with the fact that it will be a lot of work, but hopefully when the team's workload...uh, decreses(?)... they will have time to be able to do this. Unfortunately, that might be some time.
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Old 31st Jul 2001, 09:44 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by owlodoom
i for one wouldnt mind seeing an option that allows spectators to play as civilians
nope, wouldn't work as basically nobody would like to play as an unarmed person and it would be prone to abusing [e.g. civilians running into the arms of one team]
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Old 31st Jul 2001, 12:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by -reaper-


nope, wouldn't work as basically nobody would like to play as an unarmed person and it would be prone to abusing [e.g. civilians running into the arms of one team]

But what if you gave the civilian points for staying alive. What kinda bragging rights would you get if you beat a bunch of guys who are trying to kill you and you did it unarmed. LOL
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Old 1st Aug 2001, 09:44 AM   #19
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hmmm sounds better, but it's not enough as running away the whole round isn't much fun...
maybe if there were some other features to it, don't know which though
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Old 2nd Aug 2001, 08:47 PM   #20
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heh some people need to take some criminal psycology classes, or something. In a hostage situation the hostage is equally valued by both the hostage takers and the law enforcement group. They are esentially bargining chips during the negotation process. ( it's a shame nobod has been able to create a game that also incorparates the dealing process)

If a hostage is injured or killed then both teams loose in real life. The hostage taker is screwed cause now there is no deal, which was his ultimate goal, and is likely to be caught or killed. (or both) And the law enforcement doesn't get good press, or is perhaps blamed for the death in some situations.

now this is for hostage situations.

If your dealing with just pure civilians as a target then your either dealing with a "terrorist" group, or a military force thats performing some form of genocide. Most military forces wont explictily seek to eliminate the general population, just the targets of miltary value or those that pose a threat unless specificaly ordered to by the current political power.

"Civilians" in Infiltration would be a unknown variable in any situation, and would have to be dynamic as a form of threat. For example the events portraied in "rules of engagment" You don't fire on civilians, but a civilian can become a threat simply by picking up a weapon.

realistically in the game you could probably do civilans that utilize very stupid AI. For example if any have you have tried the INF-monsters mutator, you'll notice that levels can be populated with a large number of these "dumb bots" that follow very simple directions, and a very minimal hit to performance.

So for civilians you give them some simple stupid instructions to follow. Like
"wander" about aimlessly.
"Run away" if they are in contact with a hostile.
"take cover" and go prone if they are in a certain range of a friendly that is firing his weapon.
"Panic" and run around randomly
and perhaps "Defend" where the stupid bot picks up a weapon and begins to fire at a hostile.

Rather than use an archaic point drvien punishment system, you incorparate the "civilians" directly into gameplay. For example during the start a match maybe the civilans are "neutral" but if one team starts killing the civilians then they'll consider them hostile, and as the number of dead civilans rise they'll be more inclined to "defend" themselves. So a team that is careless or in-human will not be just fighting the other team, but possible a stupid but armed force that not only out numbers them, but could even be respawning. And just like in real life you can't go from hostile to friendly quick enough for it to matter on a battle field. So it's entirely possible that you end up with a scenario where both teams are considered hostile by the civilans.

I imagine that with some work someone could beta test such an enviroment by moding the AI that the monsters in "INF monsters uses" at the very least it could be a interesting mutator.
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