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Old 13th Jul 2001, 09:59 PM   #1
Bullzeye
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Angry Maybe I'm just old fashioned

Hey, I have to say, I hate 9mm with a passion. .45 ACP is a round made to stop the enemy in its tracks. You run at me and I shoot you in the chest with my .45, you will probly stop and fall down or collapse or cry like a big b***** until your ribs that have cracked under your pitiful body armor pierce your heart and lungs and you bleed to death. That was how my grandfather got his first kill in WWII. A german disquised as a suppy officer rode into his camp in upper body armor like most of the supply truckers wore. When my Grandfather found him out he used his Colt 1911 at about forty feet to knock that Nazi bastard on his ass. The failed to pierce the die cast armor at that distance, but the pistol ball round still managed to break all his ribs on the right side of his body from the impact and size of the round.

He bled internally to death.


My Grandfather was in the Seabees... He was one of the five in his company that ever had to fire on a German. He was issued only a Colt 1911 army. He told me he'd be dead if it wasn't for the sheer power of that handgun.

By the way Fur... NAKED, the target would have to be NAKED...
Take caution before you say moronic things of that nature.
I'm sure you are very smart and know much about guns. But you obviously know dick about the .45 caliber round and have probably never fired a weapon that uses it. So please refrain from such outbursts of ignorance.

I used to side with you on all of your arguments, now I will be more questioning of your knowledge of the situation before I read into anything you have to say, since your credibility now is about "nil"

I must say, we need more .45 calibur weapons.. They are powerful and fun for the whole family.
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Old 13th Jul 2001, 10:18 PM   #2
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Be careful with how you refer to other people. Many people here are ex-military and know their fire-arms very well. and they are very knowledgeable on miliary matters as well.

As far as I know, .45 is big and bulky and it doesn't do too much damage to body armour that other smaller calbires like the 5.7mm.

Body armour has improved greatly since WW2. yes you can possibly receive internal bleeding from a pistol round, but it's more common for soft-body armours.

Ceramic plates and CRISAT provide a lot of protection against pistol and SMG rounds, even a few assault rifles. But certain rounds like the 5.7mm will just go through them.

The .45 is better suited to people not wearing body armour. it does a lot of damage but modern body armour can resist it quite well.

Oh and I recall these qoute by a very famous American general in the 1960s regarding the Colt.45 (not quite sure about the time-frame)

When asked about it he said "It was a splendid weapon for defending one's self in an crowded elevator."
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Old 13th Jul 2001, 10:31 PM   #3
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I too tend to prefer the .45acp over 9mm but I wouldn't go around putting down the 9mm.

Some SAS officer is quoted as saying something to the effect of "...those who complain that the 9mm parabellum is an inneffective round, obviously haven't been shot by one."

My personal carry piece will be a .45acp (or maybe a .40 S&W) but 9mm will do quite well in a pinch (in fact before I get my .45, a friend of mine may sell me his Taurus PT92 real cheap)

The old saying goes, the 3 main factors in stopping power; Shot placement, shot placement and shot placement.

As for a .45 in INF, I'm hoping the SOCOM shows up in 2.86
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Old 15th Jul 2001, 08:33 PM   #4
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Here, lemme quote something from the book The Competitive AR15:

"The only guy in that 'business' I've ever heard say anything reasonable and irrefutable about defensive shooting is John Mattera... John says 'Don't miss.'"

I guess it really doesn't matter if you're plinking .45's, 9mm's, or even .22's.. double taps to the forehead with any of them will take a man down.
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Old 15th Jul 2001, 10:31 PM   #5
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I like 9mm, I own one. But I would like to see a bigger cal. than a .357 I think the H&k USP .40 would be the way to go. It's the same size a a 9mm. But the .40cal has almost the knockdown of a .44
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 02:34 AM   #6
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See...

Nazi used their Luger 9mm ´cause they were exelent @ killing jew guys: 1 shot u could kill 3-4 guys in a line - thin as they were in Concentration Camps... The 9mm is for penetratoin.

The .45 otherwise...

Is very "exelente" good @ stopping ppl. Why would the most important Special Operations guys use it? Just because it´s HK? As mentionated before, the .45 has a azz-kkr stopping power. One shot may not mean one kill, but certanly a "Tango down".


As many Brazilian magazines like Veja, Isto É, Superinteressante and so are talking about military, I can say that even not being in any kind of army, but the ELEPUCPMM* , with all the news here**, I´m in this topic.


*Exército de Libertação Estudantil da Pontíficia Universidade Católica do Paraná por Menores Mensalidades.

(Army of Libertation of the Pontifical Catholic University of Paraná State for Minor Mensal Taxes)


**The military police of Bahia State - the wich many of you may want to go, has rebeled, so the army is in the streets... Nice country, heh?
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 10:26 AM   #7
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Nice .45 story, though I suppose a 9mm not penetrating would have dome the same job - 9x19mm(at least the modern ones) and .45ACP have about the same muzzle energy, though the .45s tend to be about 20 or so joules above the 9.
Since two bullet stopped by armor with the same energy, the result should be the same.

and CAVERNA2K:
I don't think the 9mm was designed to kill jews plus I don't believe it goes through 3 humans.

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Old 16th Jul 2001, 10:41 AM   #8
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Just a quick note : don't use "nazi" for "german soldier". A matter of respect. Bar none.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 10:58 AM   #9
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Unhappy Off topic

Off topic to Caverna2K


O que esta passando no teu pais, moço...

Estão a preparar uma guerra civil ?
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 01:22 PM   #10
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Since we in Austria are quite sensible about this topic, I'd like to add a few things.

Max Sterling is right, if refering to a member of the Wehrmacht the word Nazi usually doesn't fit; though some were Nazis, the majority was not. Nazi applies to any party member or member of the SS - so speaking about someone, who kills a jew, the word Nazi fits.

Apart from that the SS used any means to kill people in concentration camps(including a large number of non-jewish people); weapons from pistols to machine guns of any caliber were used, as well as other means(Zyklon B, which BTW is an insecticide and not a purpose-built warfare gas). So 9mm was by far not their main method.

The last thing I'd like to add, which goes back to the original topic: 9x19 was designed because the then used 7.63 and 7.65 pistols lacked stopping power, and compared to these the 9x19 is a good stopper, and even compared to .40S&W, 10mm Auto and .45 the 9x19 has it's place, otherwise it wouldn't be a such widely used round.

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'the elders tell of a young ball much like you. he bounced three meters in the air, then he bounced one point eight meters in the air, then he bounced four meters in the air. do I make myself clear?!'

'anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing'
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 10:06 PM   #11
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erst: I´m not nazi. NOT NAZI!!! NAZI NICHT!!! NAZI SCHLECKT!!!

MadWoffen :

This is Portuguese from Portugal. Brazilian´s is somehow more "singed". Portugal´s is like German speech: rude. Brazil´s is more light, ease.


Due to a Public Responsability law, no State/City/Country(Brazil) can spend more than 50% of the total income in ppl salaries. This was made for the cut of the actual "infection" of our public systems: too many ppl. But our minimum salary(our system here) is R$ 184,00. In Bahia the military police, due to the Law, earned only R$ 74,00. They have striked up in Bahia ´cause of the lack of salaries. The actual dollar quotes here are
R$ 2,59 to US$ 1,00. Just that.

end of ot answer.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 11:02 PM   #12
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Appologies all around

I apoligize for using the term Nazi to describe German Soldiers during World War 2...

I am used to it because that's pretty much how my Grandfather refers to them, but nonetheless i do understand that 90% of the German soldiers fighting in WWII were not of the Nazi pursuasion... They were only fighting for pride of their country, and I respect that greatly. So I do apologize and will, in the future, refer to them as German soldiers.
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 01:00 AM   #13
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Snake"augen":

IF u remember the pictures of the ppl in the camps, u´ll remember they were very thin...
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 02:11 AM   #14
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NP, Bullzeye
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 06:00 AM   #15
Snakeye
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CAVERNA2K:
- Snake"auge" would've been correct - "augen" is plural.(geez, never knew how dumb that sounds in German..)

I didn't have the impression you were nazi BTW.

And yes, they were thin, but three seems much to me, especially since most lethal shots go through bone areas, and hitting bone reduces bullet energy.
Apart from that the SS preferred other ways to kill, since shooting 'stressed' their men too much..
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'the elders tell of a young ball much like you. he bounced three meters in the air, then he bounced one point eight meters in the air, then he bounced four meters in the air. do I make myself clear?!'

'anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing'
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 06:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by CAVERNA2K
erst: I´m not nazi. NOT NAZI!!! NAZI NICHT!!! NAZI SCHLECKT!!!

MadWoffen :

This is Portuguese from Portugal. Brazilian´s is somehow more "singed". Portugal´s is like German speech: rude. Brazil´s is more light, ease.


You didn't read me well, it was Angolan

(My mother worked in the Brazilian consulate in Luanda) and I'm born there...(I'm a soup of German, Portuguese and Lithuanian, hehe).

Hope this situation is no going to start a mess. Keep your country peacefull, please, I want to end my life in Brazil...

...e bebe uma caipirinha a minha saude...
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Old 20th Jul 2001, 11:08 PM   #17
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BY THE WAY

FOR those of you, I suppose you morons think that 9mm is more powerful?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Considering smaller bullet size with minimal gun powder, oh and I suppose that 9mm works better on armor than a forty five...

Since it's so HUGE and BULKY unlike the puny .45 which is so TINY and WEAK

Like the high pressure hollow point .45 rounds that expand and make a hole you could toss a cat through.

BUT I SUPPOSE THEY ARE RIGHT>>>

FORTY FIVES ARE CRAPPY
AND NINE MILIMETER IS THE MOST GREATEST MOST POWERFULLEST BULLET IN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE

Yep... SMART PEOPLE

GO ahead and reply with some snappy comeback and sit with a smug little reassuring grin. So you can ignore you stupidity forever. And sit and think happy thoughts and play Candy Land and live in your little castle in your mind. Because GOD FOR FUKKING BID you acknowlede your IGNORANCE!!!

.45 JHP can expand to twice it's size... .90 calibur...
9mm usually doesn't fully expand because the powder is inadequeate for the length of the hunk of lead you're firing.
SO SHUT UP IF YOU ARE STUPID!!!

I hate having these little outbursts but some people really are ridiculously stupid

230 grain powder bullet VS. 115 grain... 9mm substantially loses this battle... .45 at 230 grain will end the fight in loud but quick manner... The 9mm may be slightly faster but it's only good for poking holes in an enemy who may be coming at you with a PK or an M249 SAW, the impact will do little more than make him flinch, yet a .45 ACP FMJ will knock his crazy ass back and most likely put him out of commission with one bullet, armor or not. The 9mm will take 2 or 3 of itselft to do the same work. Oh sure, magazine capacity is larger for a 9mm, but you need that many bullets to do the same with the seven round clip of the .45 1911

Or in this case the SOCOM, which has 12 plus one which is almost as many as the 9mm to begin with...

Don't mess with my .45
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Old 20th Jul 2001, 11:40 PM   #18
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Bullzeye: Have you ever shot someone, or seen anyone shot?
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Old 21st Jul 2001, 12:19 AM   #19
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Bulzeye, the only problem with your comparison of the .45 and the 9mm is that the military/LE load for .45acp is not the 230 grain JHP but is 185 grain JHP or 185 grain ball. The 185 grain doesn't perform as well as the 230 (for obvious reasons).

Again, keeping in mind that the 3 components of stopping power are shot placement, shot placement and shot placement. With proper shot placement you can stop a man with a .22lr

A hot 9mm load will perform quite well (I mean we're not talking .32acp here) and I'd be willing to carry 9mm as long as it's hi-cap (a friend of mine may sell me his Taurus PT-92...it's pre-ban with a couple of 15rd magazines). Also, the 9mm JHP or FMJ has a better record at defeating soft body armor.

All that said, when I get my .45 in a month or so it will be loaded with 230 grain HydraShoks (or some other 230 grain JHP)
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Old 21st Jul 2001, 10:49 AM   #20
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If I remember correctly, 9mm Para and .45 ACP muzzle energy is about the same, both average out at about 600 joules, depending on the weapon used (lenght of barrel).
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