WE NEED YOUR THOUGHTS

OK, the time has come when we are starting to plan Infiltration 3.0... what stuff to keep, what stuff to get rid of, what stuff to add. So, we want to hear from you guys. Here are some major questions plaguing us:

1) Infiltration Deathmatch: Keep it or lose it?

2) Infiltration Standoff: What would you change about this mode to make it better?

3) Infiltration Classic: What should be done about this mode? It is unbalanced, and needs to be changed. We are tossing around ideas about an 'execute the leader' mode where each team would have to both protect their own leader while trying to assassinate the other's. A twist on CTF. If we go with this, should the "leader" be AI controlled, or an actual player?

4) Any particular weapons you'd like to lose?

5) Any particular weapons you'd like to see?

6) What should the two teams be? A tango/SEAL setup is an idea.

7) Any other suggestions?

That's about it. Please reply to all these questions, not just one or two. Here is your chance to make a difference.

Infiltration Development Team

[This message has been edited by Catalyst (edited 08-14-1999).]

Okey, I think what u guys do at inf is increadable! Please don't take away Deathmatch. I'm the only person I know that plays inf and playing clasic and standoff botmatches sucks, if u know what i mean.
Secondly, I'd like to see a
1. .50 cal mag Desert Eagle
2. Uzi with and without silencer
3. A few more machine guns, just for
variety's sake. Maybee on with a
bigger clip like and AK-47 with a
50 round clip, or something
4. A granade launcher that holds 8
rounds. Like the ones with the
rotating chamber.
5. Proximity mines that stick to the
walls.
6. Flame thrower
7. Someone should make a skin that
looks like a millitary uniform
8. A knife
9. Being able to lie in the prone
position, and kneel on one knee
10. Cluster bombs - since it's almost
impossible to hit someone with a
regular grenade
11. bullet broof vests that offer no
protection if shot in the arm or
face
12. Lastly, I don't like it when u
shoot someone in the arm four
times and they blow up. Maybee
Just a bloody arm or the arm blows
off. (less carnage and more like
puncture wounds and blood:}

Sorry so long, but u asked for suggestions and now u got them. You guys keep up the good work, it doesn't go unappreciated

O.K., here're my thoughts:
1) There're too many players who love tho good old DM. I'd keep it.

2) I don't like the idea of weapons laying around in the area. It'd be better if one win or at least one kill would give the player some credits/money or sth. like that. With this money he could buy some weapons in a menu. (I think this is like counterstrike for half-life, i don't know. I've never played this)

3) The element leader should be human. I know they're trying to improve the AI for Unreal Tournament but I don't trust them too much. If the AI will be good enough then it'd be the best if you could choose whether you want to play the leader yourself or not.
The idea of killing a leader is quite good. (But I don't like the expression leader. A VIP, the president of a country, or sth. would be better.) The leader shouldn't have too much possibilities to defend himself in order to make the 'bodyguards' pay attention.
Oh yeah, I forgot: If the VIP will be human It'd be boring for the player if you just had to survive. Maybe a checkpoint should be reached, the enemy base for example. And maybe only one team should have this VIP and the other team would have to kill him while the bodyguards have the order to protect the VIPs life. (Is this sth of team fortress classic???)

4) I don't like the M16 very much but the idea of a midrange rifle is good. The M4, the HK G36 or the fa mas would be a good replacement. (My favourit is the fa mas because of its bullpup design)

5) My must-have weapon is of course the HK G11. A melee weapon would also be nice but not too much unmilitary. A combat knife would fit good in this mod. Then the Beretta 92F could be made stronger. It should be as strong as it really is. (Don't make weapons too weak. Remember: Buying weapons if you win, that means not buying weapons if you lose. Losers must have a chance to kill the enemies or the team that has won the first 3 matches will dominate the whole game)

6) Seal Team 6 (! urban models please !) and Tangos are a good idea.
From these military/swat and tango/civil models it's still possible to create some more skins so the idea is just right.

7) The claymores should have the original size.
Byuing attachable items from the menu I mentioned above. Like an ACOG 4X scope for the M4 (if you choose the m4) Attaching a flashlight on the benelli is not that easy that you can just put it on your weapons in the AO.


[This message has been edited by Neo (edited 08-14-1999).]

Thanks for all the suggestions! Ok- let me size up your responses.. *this is in response to farrp*

1) the desert eagle is a great weapon, and is a contender for a second handgun.
2) an Uzi is also a contender for the SMG spot.. curious tho- why do people want a weapon with and without a silencer? What would be the purpose? I'd appreciate some feedback on that one because a lot of people ask for this option..
3) We're looking into different options for machine guns as well.. We'd also like to get a heavy machine gun in there at some point.. like the M249.
4) The only serious grenade launcher that holds more than one grenade would be something like the Mk-19 which can fire like 400 grenades a minute.. needless to say, it's a mounted 'turret' weapon.. If we do a weapon like that, it will be something that the level designers can plug into their maps as a turret weapon. If someone knows of a grenade launcher that is handheld and is similiar to what farrp mentioned, let us know.
5) The only kind of explosives that we might have stick to walls would be C4.. we're not going to get into any high tech CIA type stuff.. If we can figure out a good way to make a realistic trip-mine we may do that.
6) flame throwers would be cool.. especially a realistic one that shoots flames 20 feet or so.. and leaves a burning trail.. another possibility later on
7) when we create our own player models specific to Infiltration, we'll make sure the uniforms are more realistic as well.
a melee weapon will be available for version 3. Right now we're looking at which weapon to use, or possible have a choice of 3 or 4 that the player can pick from their options menu.
9) The prone position will be modeled in for version 3
10) There's no such thing as a cluster bomb weapon, unless you're talking the 700-750lb types that fighter aircraft drop from the sky. In which case airstrikes could be possible later on too.
11) vests like you describe will be available for version 3 or later..
12) when we have our own player models, you won't have to worry about arms blowing off from an M9 or even M16.. we'll save effects like that for a grenade or mine.. the models will have realistic reactions to damage types.. We'll also mess around with blood splats and pools for some added realism.

Thanks for your comments! keep em long if you have to!




[This message has been edited by Warren (edited 08-14-1999).]

I forgot:
a m249 minimi
an SD attachment for the beretta, the subgun and the midrange rifle.
Another subgun!: The HK SMG2 because they were made only for an unnamed military team. The MP5/10 is too normal and has nothing special. (Warren has got some pictures from me)

Ok- now here's a response for Neo's post - BTW- thanks for the comments-

1) So far it seems people want to keep DM- make sure you make yourself heard over this topic!
2) We'll be playing with the ability for a player to choose which weapons he starts with. We'll try to make it as configurable as possible, whether it vary on player class or a weight system. As far as buying weapons go, we'll have to see.. because what you described is just like Counterstrike for HL..
3) We'll see how good the AI is in UT.. if it's descent we may at least allow the player to choose to play as the leader or let a bot do the honors. As far as how this player functions, keep those ideas coming too- we can expand on this in many ways.
4) In our mod, we can't really make much of a difference between the M4 and M16 as far as how it functions. Right now the only real difference would be weight and the different pieces you can add onto the gun. The G36 would be a cool weapon.. but we won't replace the M16.. we'd just supplement it with another.
5) I appreciate the G11 too. It's got a good chance of making it into version 3. As far as weapons go, we'll be able to balance them better once we have our own player models in there too. The current handgun could stand to be a bit stronger, because you're right- if we have any kind of 'system' to aquire weapons, this one would be the cheaper and shouldn't be as weak as it is.
7) The claymores will stay the same size.. it's much bigger than real life, but I've seen how small they are and it'd be too unfair.
Attachable items will have to be limited. Reason being, since we already have quite a good-sized mod going, if we add all the animations neccessary for all the little extras, it could get overwhelming. If we develop Infiltration into more of a TC, than this would be much more reasonable. Some things like the Benelli flashlight will be 'standard issue.' As would be a bayonette if we added in the G11..

Thanks again for your comments!

For a pistol, I think the Dessert Eagle wouldn't be your best choice, its used in very few armed forces for a good reason, awkward to use and not fast enough for accurate "double tap" shooting method. I'd prefer something smaller than the beretta, a P7 or Glock 26.....

Maybe its just me... but I really find the AT4 inappropriate (see my AT4 thread)... maybe in DM games where people are running around going nuts.... but not in a serious "standoff" simulation...

I'd really appreciate a heaviER machine gun.... no M60 or anything but the standard M249 SAW would be great... especially being able to go prone on big outdoor maps...

My 3 cents

(pressed back... GA)

[This message has been edited by profit (edited 08-15-1999).]

I also think the DE is not a good choice for the same reason. Too FAT

The problem with the AT4 could be solved easily:
A menu in that you can choose the weapons (only 2 or 3), attach things on them and choose items, like the flashbangs, the mines and of course additional ammo. The items you may choose are of course limited and the more things you carry the slower are you. This possible sollution gives every player the opportunity to set up his favourite character: a fast scout with silencer, a heavy weapon guy with lots of ammo and a heavy machine gun and so on.
This would be just great.
Warren? What do you think?

[This message has been edited by Neo (edited 08-15-1999).]

Definately give the two teams identities.

Certain law enforcement agency vs a bunch of different criminal type persons. Terrorists, bikers, gangsters, even LA type african american gang bangers. Kingpinesque style, everyone knows what I mean.

On the law side, FBI, DEA, State Troops, SWAT, SEAL, heaps of options.

Anyway I'm out.

1) No opinion, don't play it.

2) Radio detonated explosives, like C4 as a weapon not a pick up. Claymores can be left out.

3) If the leader is human who gets to be leader? The leader should also start the round armed with the new Robar.50 BMG as well as the M9.

4) Loose the frag grenade its just too weak

5) A non-portable/trailer-mounted heavy machine gun for base defence/boarder patrol. A limited amount of ammo (ammo not found anywhere in game) and a limited arc of fire. An armoured bucket for the gunner.
(For the Blue team only)

6) SWAT vs. Terrorist.

7a) I'd love to see hostages to work around whose death causes the loss of points to the person who shot them if that person was the on the SWAT team. If a Terrorist kills a hostage then it could result in well, nothing... thats what terrorists do! It just means the SWAT guys dont have to worry about shooting the wrong person. In order for that to work it would mean incentives for the highest point scorer.

7 I'd also like to see the SWAT team more tactical equipment available to them (incentives). Night vision goggles better than ordinary vision amplifiers, cams to suit the enviroment, binoculars etc...

7c) A non-leathal weapon to avoid killing hostages but useful enough to stun/slow bad guys. Tasers, bean-bag rounds, stun baton (as a melee weapon). Damage could recover over time and no first aid kits could help.
(For the red team only).

I understand if some of this might be imposible but Im kinda new to this and just thought it would be nice if...

I just hope this is evenly balanced.

Wow.. lots of good ideas. I don't like the purchase thing, though. I don't like the thought of this becoming some kind of RPG or something. I like the idea of a menu where you create your character. You chose what guns (limited) you start with and items, and you stay with them unless you come across a dead body with some other guns. This seems cool, it would make it more of a tactical game because there would need to be one of every type of player to get a particular job done.

Idea for pickup item: cameras. Surveylance cameras that could be placed around a map so that you could defend a post. What do you think?

------------------
[ jedi.catch ]

cameras could be great.... how to monitor them though?

have someone in a van with a 4 way split screen?... ala 'Enemy of the State'

1.I never play INF_DM so no opinion.
2.The ability to sprint for short bursts(yeah I read the thread already...)
3.I like the play for points idea, I also like the idea of picking a Primary and sidearm(like DELTA FORCE) at the start of the game and using those weapons only throughout the match. If you want different weapons it counts as a negative frag to switch and in STANDOFF you have to wait for the intermission to respawn. It might even be cooler if you weapon choices varied depending what Team you were on.
4.The AT4...
5.Any suppressed pistol, M1911A1, HK USP, CZ58 Skorpion. .357 or .38 Special Revolver. Beretta Mod12 SMG, FN P90, PPSH-41, MAC-10, UZI. AK-74, L85A1 IW, M4, Mini-14. Double Barreled 12ga Sawed-Off, Rem-870, Ithaca Roadblocker. M21 or WA-2000. M249, RPK-74, MG3.
6.SAS/Tango, SEAL/Tango, Secret Service(w/president)/Militia, SWAT/Gangers.
7.Don't quit, it is a fantastic MOD.

------------------
Oh Great... another Mac
fanatic...

It's me agian!
The granade launcher I was talkin' about has a revolving 8 cylinder magazine. Like a pistol but much bigger like an old 'tommy gun' magazine. The first time I saw one was in OO7 for the N64. But I know they are a real weopon because i've seen them in war movies, and if i'm not mistaken I think also in the old movie 'Preditor'.
Anyhow, I realize your emphasis is on realism in inf. I applaud that, and think this would be a 'cool' addition to it. Although initially you would think an 8-shot granade launcher would be too much fire power, thinks could be done to make it work. For example, after the 8-shot mag was empty, it would take as long or longer as the shotgun to reload. The semiauto feature of the gun should be A LOT slower than the shotgun, but still faster than the single shot launcher. (maybee 1 shot a second) Also, the weopon placement for the launcher should be rare, one per level. And the re-appear should be like every 2 minutes or so. If you don't like my idea, its cool; if you do I can't wait to see it.
One other thing, The M16 needs one of two thinks, or both. Either a grenade launcher under the barrel, (I know, enough about grenade launchers) or a small scope on top. Some people like to snipe and others like the explosive ability. But I think, both would be great.
You asked me why I thought you should make a silenced and none silenced version of the same gun. I'm not really sure, but i'll try to explain. A differant look is nice sometimes, although it's the same gun. With surpressed you can sneek up on someone, while shooting, and they would just notice the bullets wizzing by there head but not know where it was comming from. Bottom line, its just nice to have a choice:}
Here's another idea. In any other game besides deathmatch, you should choose you initial weopons before the game starts. Like one side arm, one meele, one main gun or rifle and a limited amount of ammo. Then, the in-game would consised of running around lookin' for the enemy, of course. But the only further guns you get would be the one off dead bodies that should stay visible until someone takes there weopons. the only weopon the killer would be able to take would be their rile or items or any big gun they had. Not there side arm or melee weopons. Then when you die and are re-spawned you should only sart with your side arm and meele weopon you chose pervious to the match. Some ammo sould be scattered about the level and mayee one or two major damage weopons, like the rocket launcher or somethink.
Boobie traps would be a cool idea. And how about some fire coming out of the ends of the barrels. (Shotguns, rifles, mayee even the pistol) And when the UT inf mod is out I would s#!t my pants if you could have duel uzis, pistols, MP5s, or what ever.

Just a few drunken ideas, and as always I LOVE your mod.

1. Just because a gun is in a movie, doesn't mean it is real. No, it wasn't in predator.
2. a grenade launcher with the capacity to hold 8 rounds is too much. It is like the eightball. I like inf because no one has much of an advantage over others who chose different weapons. Each weapon has its use which may be better than other weapons being used for the same thing, but other weapons would be better than it at other things. I like the balance of weaponry. I like the idea to come in with certain things, you could really set up clan stuff that way or just a group of friends. I had an idea for the grenades. What if you made a quick key that would put your gun away, pull out a grenade, throw it when released, then go back to your gun? I thought that would be better than current, especially if your are planning on leaveing the grenades with a 5 sec. fuse.

Pickup items - would it be cool to have all pickup items be held in a pack which would only matter when you die, then the pack would sit with the gun beside the body and anyone could pick it up and have all your goodies.

Feigning - would it be good to make feigning more realistic looking? You could have the gun you were holding laying beside your body so someone might actually think they killed you and try to pick up your gun. I don't know how that would work, but it might be cool.

Pickup items - I think you should start in all modes with an FOV radar-type thing. I had mentioned this before. Your team would be visible wherever they were (through walls or anything) simulating realtime talking via walkie talkies. If someone requests help, their dot on the radar would flash red so everyone would know where they were. There could be a pickup attatchment to this that would show heat signatures so your could see enemies through walls for a short time maybe.
This may be hard but you could consider making a crude layout of maps apear on the radar as you go through the level, so after you explore a room, there is a room on the radar. if you explore the whole map would apear as a sort of blueprint with your teams dots all over it and enemy dots only in your FOV. If you did this, the radar could be the shape of the map and small so you and your fov would move around on the map in stead of the FOV staying still and everything else moving. I realize this is kind of difficult and would probably require people to make maps with more info that would be incorporated into the radar to make it work. Just something to look at.

------------------
[ jedi.catch ]

I also posted this in another topic - a second part of this topic.

Attachable items are of course possible, but they add a LOT to the size of the mod. To put this in perspective, let's take an MP5 weapon. If you have the ability to add a scope AND a silencer, then we're talking 4 times as many animations. For example, the standard average set of animations for this weapon would be:

-Still_1 (hip shot with bolt forward)
-Still_2 (hip shot with bolt back)
-StillAim_1 (aim shot with bolt forward)
-StillAim_2 (aim shot with bolt back)
-BringUp (raise the weapon when selected)
-BringDown (lower the weapon out of view)
-Fire
-Idle
-Reload_1 (when gun first picked up, bolt is charged)
-Reload_2 (when out of ammo, clip is swapped and bolt is slapped)
-Reload_3 (when changing clips but not out of ammo)

As you can see this is 11 animations (granted, the still sets are only 1 frame) so if you add the capability for the weapon to have a silencer, than that would be another 11 animations. If you add the scope, that's yet another 11. Ok, now we have to make it so you can have both the silencer and scope.. another 11.. brings us to *44* sequences-- a helluva lot of animation sets for one weapon- now adding 4 or maybe 5 weapons with this ability, you've got a HUGE download for a mod. It obviously better be damn good for someone to take the time and download a 12mb or more file. This might be ok the first time, but what if we have bugs that need to be fixed? Now we're talking more downloading. I'm definitely not trying to shoot down the idea, just putting in perspective what that would mean for you guys. I personally like the idea of having more functions to our weapons, rather than the normal fire and forget stuff. And for me to animate these extras would be simple since I just have to attach a silencer and/or scope to the original animations. How does this sound? from an unbiased point of view, would you really want to download a mod that size?

As far as silencers go, I see why you think you'd want them in there from a realistic standpoint, but do you really think someone who attaches a silencer to his weapon will take the time to remove it? As I said above, adding that ability isn't hard at all, but it would really increase the size of Infiltration by quite a bit.

The idea for starting players off with certain weapons is a great one. I love the concept of being able to start out and choose which melee, sidearm, and primary weapon you'd want. Along with choosing grenade types, mines, healthkits, etc for a backpack type thing. I personally feel a weight system along with this could work too so the player can decide if he should carry more clips of 9mm ammo or another healthpack. This can go along with weapon attachments - things like scopes can add weight- although not much. Then if that player dies, he should be able to loose his backpack and ammo to be picked up by others. None of this spawning ammo either.. you show up to the battle and either scrounge or if everyone runs out, it's melee time!! This is a wonderful idea for some increadible realism. Now comes the implementation.. ie, coding. The whole menu system seems possible, but if you want to join a standoff server, you'll need to set up your player before you start. One option is if you've found a setup that works best for you, it can be a default thing just like your nickname is.. so you can simply jump into the standoff game right away. All this stuff will really depend on how good UT is. Sad to say, but it's in their hands... unless someone wants to fork over half a million for the source code..

For the radar type of deal, it unfortunately isn't very realistic. What *would* be though is true voice communications.. something that upcoming first person shooters really ought to incorporate into their games. For Classic mode though we can possibly add this radar support Jedi mentioned. But since there's no real way to know where your buddies are, we may have to compromise.. The thing about an overlay of the current map is next to impossible.. simply because either the level designer or one of us would have to create a top view of each map in an art program.. not likely to happen. that's just the first problem.. The infared type stuff is also next to impossible with this engine. It's sad too because I recently saw a screenshot of Sherman's night vision capability and it's increadibly good! (this is a mod for Half Life.)

Sprinting for short bursts is a great idea- one I wanted for our current versions, but Unreal just doesn't make that possible- tho I sure hope UT does.. that would be SO nice!

If UT offers descent support for dual weapons, then we'll probably make it so you can hold the gun with your left hand, grab a hand grenade, pull the pin with your teeth, then toss it. I think that'd be even better than having to switch weapons! Same could go for flashbangs or (if UT has a good way of doing it) smoke grenades.

Jedi is right about the whole movie thing.. For us to even CONSIDER a weapon, it has to be real, true to life. What your describing for a grenade launcher, from my knowledge, doesn't exist except for in movies and games.. If you can find some real pics of it on the internet, send them my way and we'll talk.. otherwise, we'll need more info than 'I saw it in a movie once...'

The feigning idea is possible. I could set that up in the animations of our new characters so they react differently and more realistically to 'playing dead.'

Phew- that's too much typin'. Feel free to comment on any of it though!

Ok what about different weapons available to the different teams? Possible or not? Just a few extra weapons and the rest could be common to both sides.
Maybe if you use the idea of starting with a set of weapons then the two teams could have diffent combinations of weapons to choose from.
Will heavy weapons slow down your movement?
Is there a chance we could see a weapon with a greater rate of fire? Something with rotating barrels and belt fed ammo and a bone chilling whirrrr...
I'd like to see a gyro mount, bi-pod or even a tri-pod.
Finally, should there be a limit to how much you can carry

[This message has been edited by Billstein (edited 08-15-1999).]

I don't have a problem downloading a huge amount of files if the mod is great! Just split the files so people can download little file fragments of let's say 5mb. Maybe it'll be possible to patch only some of these files so you don't have to download the whole mod again. And if this isn't possible. I DON'T MIND!!!
I agree that I wouldn't start screwing the silencer on and off while I'm under fire. No, I think it's the best idea to keep the loadout as it was at the beginning of the mission.
I also agree with you ideas of the backpack, running, etc.
Try to make it real. It'd be great!

FORGOT STH!
With the radar a kill is too easy! I've practised all that 'slice the pie' and 'room entry' techniques for months and now even a loser can kill me with a grenade launcher and this radar.
If you go to total realism (what I'd appreciate) leave the radar out, please.