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Old 27th Mar 2000, 03:48 AM   #1
Keiichi
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Realistic weapons in FPS's

I'm just wondering why more developers haven't taken a hint from all the SPECOPS/SWAT mods out there. It seems like every FPS has a realistic weapons mod, and 9 times out of 10 they're one of the prime reasons people buy the games. Counter-Strike is probably the sole reason that Half-Life is still as popular as it is, and I know for a fact that Infiltration has sold at least one copy of UT. And that's not all! UT has a whopping THREE weapons mods in development (Infiltration, Strike Force, and SWAT), all of which look first rate.

My question is: Why don't more companies make realistic GAMES? Shock Rifles and Viral Proliferators are fine, but it seems like every FPS on the market feels that it has to cram it's games full of exotic weaponry or no one will buy it.

Team Fortress 2 looks like a step in the right direction, and Decay (www.insomniasoftware.com) is showing promise, but that's still just a paltry 2 games amongst the hordes of FPS on the market. Oh well, I guess the old saying is true: "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself". Now...where'd my copy of "Game Development for Dummies" go? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

-Keiichi

[This message has been edited by Keiichi (edited 03-27-2000).]
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Old 27th Mar 2000, 04:31 AM   #2
ShakKen
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

Because we generally don't get sued is some idiot kid goes and shoots a classmate. There are ton's of lawyers out there looking to make big bucks by blaming all this violence on computer games. Of course, Lord knows that that's a load of BS.

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Old 27th Mar 2000, 06:08 AM   #3
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

I know...give us a publisher, lots of money, and our own office, and we'll start cranking out the realistic games for you! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

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Old 27th Mar 2000, 06:56 AM   #4
Bad.Mojo
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

Yep. Blame games. Blame the media.

This decade its Quake and Marilyn Manson and Gangsta Rap. Rewind ten years and it was Dungeons and Dragons and Metallica.

Its never actually the person's fault for going out and plugging somebody. No, point the goddam finger. It takes a finger to pull a trigger, not images or sounds.

Though I guess this is just another fine example of how we live in a consequenceless society where babies are as disposable as their diapers.

And, I swear guys! I'm really trying to get money for you! (well, not very hard, but believe it or not I'm poking around, seeing if I can get financial backing - looking at the criteria for it - i'm a little tagalong, I know =)
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Old 27th Mar 2000, 10:25 AM   #5
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

IMO they don't do that too often because it's too difficult for them. I've never heard of a company that interacts with a community as MODs do.
-> the community doesn't get the game it really wants

Or: it's easier to invent sth. new. It's easier to invent an ASMD than trying to create a perfect MP5.

Or: companies are dumb and don't even listen to the market
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Old 27th Mar 2000, 01:45 PM   #6
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

Well, it’s nice to see that there are so many of you perplexed about this as I am. But here is part of the answer. Major game developers aren’t necessarily dumb. OK some of them are, but not all, and you have to remember it’s a business. I’m talking about corporate people, not the developers themselves. They’re out to accomplish one thing - making a profit. Well, that might seem like they should just make games based on realism then, but think about it. They know there is a large fan base for realism, but there is also a large fan base for sci-fi deathmatch craziness, so why change what’s already making them money. They also know, or are beginning to realize more and more, that mod development teams will use their game engine to make it a more realistic gaming experience for the other fans who are into realism. So they concentrate on putting together a good engine, and worry less about the game itself. Also, with sci-fi craziness, they don’t have to worry about the research and knowledge it takes to keep the game true to real life. They can make up any kind of crazy rules they want. And they don’t have to communicate with the community to see what they want, they can just go by last year’s figures. Let the mod developers worry about realism, and what the community really wants. It all means profit to them.

But it is starting to change. Look at the rainbow six series, SWAT, and TF2. Not to mention Delta Force and at least a couple others. The only real major success so far has been RS. And it doesn’t compare to Q3 or UT or the Duke Nukem games. So what does that tell you?

Well, I’d might as well express my opinion concerning the relationship between FPS games and gun violence, which is a big problem in the States anyway. It’s a load of crap. There is no relationship. A game doesn’t go out and procure a weapon for a 13 - 18 year old, give it to them, walk them up to someone and help them pull the trigger. It’s sad that it happens, but the solution is not in game prohibition. I deal with an 8 year old, and I don’t let him play these games, but he watches me sometimes, and I make sure he understands why I don’t let him play yet. I talk to him about it, and help him realize right from wrong, and using common sense. Kids can figure it out. They are not dumb. I don’t worry about him growing up to be a violent person, but I do feel he needs to mature into playing these games, and it depends on the kid. Hell, he’d rather watch cartoons anyway.

Young minds are a hell of a lot more intelligent than people think, and older adults need to start realizing this and start working with them, instead of thinking they can just keep taking things away from them and telling them what is best for them. People forget what it was like to be young. Hell, if anything, these games help you stay young, and bring old and young together. There are just a lot of kids out there that take high school, and other aspects of their young lives too seriously. You don’t realize until you get away from it and start to develop your own life, that all that stuff that you thought was everything to you, was a very small piece of the rest of your life. Let me tell you, it only gets better and better, if you give it a chance. I know it’s a lot more complex than that, but that’s why people point fingers at games and other things. Because that’s an easy way out.

But I look at it this way: For every dumbass kid out there who trys to kill his peers, there are thousands of kids that are pretty damn cool. This community shows that.

Whew! OK, I’m done rambling………for now. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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Old 27th Mar 2000, 01:52 PM   #7
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

>Young minds are a hell of a lot more intelligent than people think<

wow, the sentence of the day. I'll write that down
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Old 27th Mar 2000, 06:11 PM   #8
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

For the record...

To say that, i.e., Half-Life only got "good and popular" when CS was created is very pretentious...

I played HL a lot...never played CS..and it's a very nice FPS. It won a lot of awards, including game of the year, without CS having anything to do.

Mods (specially realistic ones) make the games we play more fun ? Maybe... but I don't forget that Unreal and UT were great games before INF and its incarnations for each one.

Mods extend the game they're created for and give that game a new perspective. Sometimes a lot. But there's a long way from here to say that 'games only get good once there's a RL mod/conversion'.

Please...

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Old 27th Mar 2000, 06:35 PM   #9
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

you also realize that the supposed "most popular" (or at least self claimed most popular) weapons mod for UT is U4E, a mod that lets you have a hand held P-47 thunderbolt engine, a freezegun, and an exploding doll
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Old 27th Mar 2000, 07:05 PM   #10
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

That's a good point Chand. These games are good in many ways to start with, and whether or not a game is made 'better' by a mod, is only a matter of opinion.
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Old 27th Mar 2000, 10:14 PM   #11
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

Or is it possible that dev. teams are maybe not as in tune with what the players want as they believe they are? I mean, a player can say "I want true to life physics, character models, weapon models, vehicle models and ballistics", but ultimately what the developers dish out on the plate is what you're left to buy, and buy you will because you love games, all games, console games, pc games. Developers have this inherent sense that all game players (God help me for using this stereotype) are geeky, fantasy/sci-fi, sex crazed blood and guts lunatics.

Thank you, but I'll take my geeky tits and intestines with a healthy dose of today, game makers. Sooner or later they have to start listening.

Note: In no way am I saying todays games are crap. Unreal Tournament sold me on UT, not any mod (actually, it was the assault feature, I had been looking for something like that forever.)
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Old 27th Mar 2000, 10:28 PM   #12
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

You might be right to an extent. I bought UT for INF. But I've played UT a few times, and it is fun, it's just not worth the money on its own IMO. But to a lot of people it is. I did feel however, Half-life was worth the money with or without mods. I don't know, it's hard to tell how people feel.

RS is cool though, and from what I hear SWAT is pretty sweet. Those are the type of games I really enjoy, and hopefully they will improve upon those in the future.
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Old 27th Mar 2000, 10:50 PM   #13
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

Whether mods make a game "better" obviously depends on the definition you are using to descibe "better" at the moment of said description.

Ouch. This is going to be a long one.

Anyways, what I really would like to jump in this post with is this: Although there are loads of reasons why society is becoming more and more callous, the main reason IMO, is that we are letting politicians, think for us, and live our lives. This is very bad, because most politicians think that the average voter has the brain power of a parakeet. Think about it, Mr. X starts smoking at 18, is up to 2 packs a day by 21 and dies at 50 of lung cancer. So the government says to his widow, "Hey! You deserve $10 million! You have been wronged by the tobacco companies! Your husband, God rest his soul, was a smart, productive member of society who was taken advantage of by tobacco companies." And, you can apply the same thing to guns, alcohol, cars, and EVEN, McDonald's coffee!

And most people think about it and say, "You know what? You are absolutely correct! I was wronged by them!" Never mind the fact that anybody with an 80 IQ knows that smoking is bad for you.

And now on a totally different, yet related tangent, drugs and children. Why do we drug our children? Child A is 10. He daydreams, he is rambunctious, he doesn't like homework or school. Wow. Just like every other 10 year old right? Well, in todays world of "modern" medicine we like to give this "mal-adjusted" child ritalin. Sometimes I just want to hit people that give their children psychiatric drugs. How can you drug a kid because he would rather play or dream than do schoolwork? Drugs like ritalin and prozac screw with your mind, and are just as bad as marijuana, cocaine, or methamphetimines. I saw an ad the other day for a drug for "Social-Anxiety Disorder". I wanted to cry.
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Old 27th Mar 2000, 11:03 PM   #14
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

That's what I mean. 'Better' is relative.

On the issue of drugs. I do agree with you that children should not be drugged. I think it's ridiculous.

I don't agree with you throwing all drugs into one huge category and labeling it "EXTREMELY BAD". Which is sorta what you did. If you want to do that, you should include alcohol as well, which has the potential to be far more dangerous and deadly than marijuana.

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Old 28th Mar 2000, 01:16 AM   #15
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

I'll just toss in my two cents...

Chand: I'm sorry if it sounded like I was saying Half-Life is a bad game. I myself love HL and still consider it one of the best FPS of all time. What I was trying to say is that HL probably wouldn't be as popular today as it still is if it wasn't for CS.

As for the whole children/drug issue, I believe a lot of Americans need to wake up and start taking responsibility for their own actions. A lot of people make their living by leeching off of everyone else. That whole lawsuit with McDonalds really pissed me off. If you're stupid enough to set a cup of coffee in your lap and then tear off at 60mph, then you deserve to get burned. The fact that she actually WON a whopping $2 million just added insult to injury.

I hate to bring up the whole Columbine shooting again, but it makes a good point. Two kids walk into a school and slaughter their classmates. Who do you blame? The two student? Their parents for not noticing the warning signs? No! You blame the video game industry for warping their fragile, innocent, robotic little minds. I've been playing violent games and watching violent movies for as long as I can remember, and anyone who knows me knows that i'm the nicest, most gentle person you will every meet.

The thing I find disturbing isn't the fact that those two students where into Goth/Industrial music, or the fact that they played violent video games (btw, who here doesn't have fond memories of Doom?). The thing I find disturbing is that two children could get ahold of that kind of weaponry, and the fact that no one, not even their parents or friends, noticed what was going on until it was too late. I've said it before and i'll say it again, violent movies and games aren't the CAUSE of violence in society, they're just a reflection of it.

-Keiichi

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Old 28th Mar 2000, 04:40 AM   #16
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

Corin, you're my hero. Hold me.

And on the topic of McDonald's coffee:

If its hot and I spill it on myself, I sue because they did not warn me.

If it is cold and I spit it out in reflux, I sue because they stained my car.

If somebody needs to be told that the STEAMING, WARM-TO-THE-TOUCH ****ING CUP OF COFFEE THEY JUST POURED OUT OF A DECANTER ON A GODDAM HOTPLATE IS HOT, I fear for society in general. I can't believe the courts actually let people get away with that.

Yiah, I'm suing Maytag cause I put my dog in the washing machine and it came out dead; they never told me not to use it on living things.

Which brings us back to the age-old saying: If you're stupid enough to drink Javex, you deserve to die.
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Old 28th Mar 2000, 04:40 AM   #17
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

Corin, you're my hero. Hold me.

And on the topic of McDonald's coffee:

If its hot and I spill it on myself, I sue because they did not warn me.

If it is cold and I spit it out in reflux, I sue because they stained my car.

If somebody needs to be told that the STEAMING, WARM-TO-THE-TOUCH ****ING CUP OF COFFEE THEY JUST POURED OUT OF A DECANTER ON A GODDAM HOTPLATE IS HOT, I fear for society in general. I can't believe the courts actually let people get away with that.

Yiah, I'm suing Maytag cause I put my dog in the washing machine and it came out dead; they never told me not to use it on living things.

Which brings us back to the age-old saying: If you're stupid enough to drink Javex, you deserve to die.
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Old 28th Mar 2000, 04:19 PM   #18
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

I'm really impressed with how intelligent these conversations are about a fairly touchy topic. Granted, most of us a biased- because like you said, we've played 'violent' video games all our lives. I was the same way- played them since Wolfenstein.. but guess what, my parents musta taught me right because I don't have the slightest inclination to go kill those in high school I didn't agree with.

But there are a lot of people who have no idea about violent video games.. FPS games.. what they see is a game where you get to use realistic weaponry and shoot people until they die in order to get points to win a game to go to the next game and do the same damn thing over again.

Let's compare this to golf.. raise your hand if you think it's pretty damn idiotic to hit a small ball around a big basically wasted park with a small club to get it into a small hole with few strokes as possible? Yet you talk to a golf lover and they'll tell you all kinds of details that make the game so great to them. How much tactical skill is involved, how you have to think about every move, how it's actually a pretty good workout if you walk the course.. point is, it's all perspective.. same with a lot of terrorists who have an 'agenda.' They believe through and through or, lol- "balls to bones" that the cause they believe in is the true and responsible way.. yet, to us they are terrorists.

I don't sympathize with that extreme of a case, but it's all about keeping an open mind- which is what my parents taught me. Which is also why we love getting feedback from you guys. That's one of the things I look for in team members is that they can have an open mind to critisicm in their work, as long as the one pointing the finger has a little tact.

It's just easier to blame video games because in most people's minds, it's no better than satanic music and voodoo dolls. They don't know about games like RS, CS, Inf, etc- that teach you tactical gameplay. They more or less put you in the shoes of a dangerous job with multiple ways to solve it, and eventually show you how it should be done. Team work. Thinking man's game. Tactical. Those are the words I use to describe this genre.

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Old 28th Mar 2000, 04:25 PM   #19
Warren
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

Oh, anyone remember the case where the thief was trying to sneak into this old lady's house and I think it was, he fell through the glass roof or something and broke his leg.. he sued her under some rediculous pretense- and won..

warren looks for his large trout

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Old 28th Mar 2000, 05:53 PM   #20
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Re: Realistic weapons in FPS's

Good points everyone! Warren: yeah, same thing happened around here in Moorpark, some guy was trying to break into a school or something, he fell through a skylight, and then sued the school for not having the building safety-zoned or some crap.

Oh, and I think the trout is in your other pants. (Avoids many, many other tasteless jokes that could have fit here) [img]/infopop/emoticons\icon_wink.gif[/img]

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