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Old 1st Feb 2001, 06:54 PM   #1
grendalsbane
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The great commie versus Patriot depate

Rouge Leader, the more you talk on this subject I see a picture of you in my head, the shifty type who tends to blame all those around him for his short commings in life, it's always the dirty politicians or the corrupt bussiness men that have you down. You live in the greatest land ever. We are more free than any society ever, much to the loathing of the left who seeks to control us. I know on some plane you belive that we can have this workers utopia, but the basic primise is flawed. When you share everything and everone is treated the same, life STAGNATES. There is no incentive to better yourself, people simply don't do things for the common good, unless the common good is their good. You site provincial France is an example. Since the period you quote France has been through huge termoil because of the failings of that and other systems. If it was such a perfect system why is it gone, and why has every system that started with the philosophy degenerated to chaos. While a wonderful theory history has taught us that it always leads to oppresion in the guise of the common good. As for the quotes that it is pure democracy I agree whole heartedly, we do not live in a democracy, we live in a capatalist REPUBLIC!!!! Democracy is just a nice word that discribes traits within our government.
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Old 1st Feb 2001, 09:00 PM   #2
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In defense of Capitalism

From Suggestions forum " Capitilism works for one reason it thrives on every humans pinchant for greed."

I am sorry but that is incorrect.

Capitalism is greed? Being greedy is recieving or having something that is not deserved or not needed. There is no magical scale in Capitalism to measure what is deserved or what is needed. This is because every individual would be free to earn as much as they so desire. This scale exists only in systems such as Socialism where the policy is roughly "to each according to need". The greed scale exists in such an economy because "need" is the basis of the system itself and thus, is the only time greed can be used in a non-abitrary manner. With that in mind, someone who links greed and Capitalism illustrates their lack of understanding in both concepts.

Furthermore, don't even dare say that the US is Capitalist. Such thoughts are absurd and unfounded. Although, to some degree, it would be correct to say the US was founded on capitalistic structures.

You are correct in saying the US is a Republic. By no means interpretation was this country ever a Democracy. In fact, the word Democracy is not found in the Dec. of Independence nor the Constitution. The modern consensus that Democracy is a representative government is incorrect. The first Democracy was Greek, and to illustrate the political power held by the masses at that time, Socrates was "voted" to be killed for asking too many questions.

Those who think "deregulation" and non-progressive taxes lead to a greater centralization of wealth need a history lesson. Around the newly properous times of the '20s the top 1% of the income earners came home with 14% of the total income, TODAY the top 1% earn 33% of the income.

If anyone wishes to see why big business prefers regulation, please see these two LONG articles. Government and Big Business and Power Elites

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Old 1st Feb 2001, 09:58 PM   #3
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Ok, in response to this rediculous notion that communism is democratic. If you do not allow people to profit from and trade with their ideas and/or labor then they are SLAVES.

This particular topic has come up several times here, and frankly this forum has had some of the most thought provoking discussions on communism vs capatlism (and also among the most polite too, a testament to the folk in this forum) but I'm tired and I refuse to argue it anymore.

Go out an read "The Road to Surfdom" By Fredrick Heyak. If you still believe communism and/or socialism are a good idea after that then you are either a fool or a dangerous person with possible tendencies toward megalomania.

And please, don't give me this song and dance about how Soviet communism and or Chinese communism are not pure communism or they didn't do communism right or any of that horse droppings.

Soviet and Chinese style oppression of their own people are ALWAYS the end result of abandoning freemarket capitalism in favor of governmental monopolies (aka communism/socialism).

EDIT: Hey grendalsbane, out of respect for the forum moderators, do you thing could you go lock the other thread that started this. Since you started it I think the forum software will only let you or a moderator lock it, thanks
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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 02:20 AM   #4
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now where is this debate, i cant seem to find it.
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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 04:15 AM   #5
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Where's mojo when the commies need him?

Anyway, i'll add my thoughts to this little debate.

Any government, will eventually turn to a world of s<u></u>hit. It's enevitable, once someone disagrees with something, they will twist all the weak minded ones around them into pawns and encite revolution, thats one possibilty, but its human nature, we dont like being told what to do or how to live.

Just look at a teenager, they've gorwn up, and think they're old enough to control their own lives so they revolt against the authority, in this case, the parents. Think of a country as a child, growing ever so slowly, and the government as the parents.

No governemnt will ever work for a very long time. Its not possible.

<img src=http://www.geocities.com/bischlong/jaunty2.jpg><span style="width:100%;font-family:arial;text-align:left;color:red;font-size:12pt;height:12pt;filter: glow(strength=8,color=black)">Free f<u></u>ucking speach!</span><span style="font-size:12pt;width:100%;height:12pt;text-align:left;filter:wave(freq=1,strength=2,phase=4,lightstrength=55)"><span style="width:100%;font-family:arial;text-align:left;color:red;font-size:12pt;height:12pt;filter: glow(strength=15,color=lightblue)">
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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 04:31 AM   #6
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Western Fools

I am part Russian, we were capitalist "fatcats" force from our home country at the time of the October Revolution (or November, what ever you normally call it, for those who don’t know, Russia before 19.. ummm..17 (I think) had the old system of date, thus it was some 30 days off the West (my Grandfather had two birthdays, one Russian, and one "normally"), hence its two names),

But do I despise what happened? No, the common Russian was being mistreated, exploited. Russia was far behind the rest of Europe, in terms of both, living conditions (although similar conditions to neighboring China), and its Industry. The blame cannot be put on Revolutionary Political Terrorist (Bosavieks) but Russia’s incompetent Czar (Nic. II) and lets not forgot Rasputin, without him, Bloody Sunday (The Russian version: The Peasants were protesting, Rasputin, was to blame for the firing on the crowd, which sparked the beasts within the Peasants) would not of happened, perhaps no Revolution, but that’s not likely, if a large group of humans want change it is inevitable.

I don't like Leninism or Stalinism, but these "Communist states" are but "socialist dictatorships", and then called "Communist states" to decrease the appeal and image of Communism, you people must realize that no-matter what you believe you grew up in a country that was wildly Anti-Communism (except those who grew up in communist states, or Soviet back countries, or far-left wing countries), they (West) will do any to harm its image. The People’s Republic of China, The Soviet Union, all were fu.cked by ****-sucking dictators.

The Idea Of Communism is great, but will be very hard to have a pure communist state with a large country because:

1) Many people who want control/power

2) The country will need great administration work, there inlays your problem, These people work very hard and they believe they deserve more, why not, they aren’t just working the land, they work their asses off. Thus creates a feeling of different classes, Admin and Workers,

Basics people, Communism = Classless society, now its has gone wrong.

A Jewish Kibbutz is an almost prefect example of Communism, all laborers work, the income is given to kibbutz and then equally handed out. In the kibbutz the farmers work together, buy everything together, share equipment with each other. They even elect a director. This is a true, Democratic Communist State (farm = state in this case).

Now pure a true Democratic State, would be one in which people are selected randomly to present the people, voters even vote randomly. Now granted a Pure Democratic State, is likely to ever happen, I want you Western Democrat’s to realize this.

I am not a Communist, but I respect it. What I don’t respect is Stalinism, Leninism, Maoism, Titoism. these are just bastardized versions of a good theory, Communism.

If you believe that mankind is full of greed then I think you have lost faith in humanity. Look no further than a Jewish Kibbutz.

A Plan economy is too confining, I believe that ever economy should be free market, because this allows for competition, which leads to price reduction, the availability for all potential customers, and innovations, the latter being the most important, but price and availability are still very important.

To say that socialist is bad, shows your personally, why should we not help our fellow human beings? You can talk about Tax-payers that, Tax-payers this, but they got fu.cked by society and we should help them in some form of another. My personally view is education, not payoffs, but that’s another discussion altogether.


That about 50 cents wroth, not a mere 2 cents!
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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 04:35 AM   #7
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I like Russia. The language is so ****in cool too.

<small>Well that's all I have to say on this topic</small>
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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 08:00 AM   #8
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ok, Communism that you see in the world, even fourm Communist countries. are NOT Communist!


"if this is marxism, then I am not a marxist"
-karl marx


Communist China is more of a dictatorship/socialist than Communism.


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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 08:03 AM   #9
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I've brought this up before, but Communism will work, but only in one very specific situation.

A small (less then say, 10,000 people) agrarian theocracy.

You have to believe that your devotion to the state is tied to your devotion to God.

Jewish Kibbutz is one example, Amish communities are another.

For the rest of the secular, industrialized, crowded world, free market capitalism is the best way to assure the greatest number of people succeed.

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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 08:23 AM   #10
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Ideas are not owned by single people. That is the greed that grendelsbane is talking about. The one thing you should always realize if you have a good idea is that if you didn't come up with it, someone else would. It is exactly that attitude, that "I came up with it so its mine", thats stops human progress.

"Capitilism works for one reason it thrives on every humans pinchant for greed"
We both have the benifit of living in the United States. But take a look worldwide and you will find out that capitalism DOESN'T work. Over 50% of the world's population doesn't make enough money to eat the minimum ammount of food to live on.

A woman in Vietnam working in a Nike sweatshop makes 20¢ an hour in American currency, working 6 days a week for 10 hours a day (thats about $50 a month). That 20¢ is $1.40 less than than the $1.60 required for food daily. Michael Jordan gets paye $20 million a year to advertise for Nike. If that woman lives to be 400000 years old, she will make as much money in her life as Michael Jordan makes in 1 year. Lets take a look at who is more important: that woman, who provides you your shoes that keep your feet warm and protected so you can live a more happy life, or Michael Jordan, who has done nothing but entertain people. That woman is giving you the basics to live, yet under your idea of a fair and just economic system she is starved to death so some billionaire executive can get a few extra cents. But Zund, your right, he had a good idea with the whole sweatshop thing, and he deserves to benefit from their suffering- your democracy at work.

Lets look at some other great ideas that got people rich. John D. Rockefeller had a good idea- illegally form trusts, force railroads to give him rebates, and coorperate espionage. What a genius. How about Bill Gates. He's a smart one, who else could come up with the idea of forcing other companies out of business to get their products and claim them as your own. Amazing, I wish I could come up with such great, if not criminal, ideas.

"workers utopia"? Communism is all about reality. Capitalism is the utopian idea. Capitalism makes the conjecture that all human nature is good and no one will take advantage of the system and squeeze money out of the poor. There are no checks and balances to the capitalist economic system. Anyone who wants everything can take it. Its all about selfishness. Whoever is willing to take the money will get it. Communism is all about accepting the fact that people by nature are greedy, and stopping it. You said it yourself, communism is about greed. As long as there is greed there will be people who squeeze the money and the life out of innocent people. But like you said, it makes capitalism work- for the top 1% of the world who controls most of the world's wealth. You appear to be confusing Communism with Utopian Socialism, too very different ideas. I can see you really don't know communist or socialist theories well, and I would suggest you don't criticize what you don't understand.

As for your patriotism, I can see clearly your type of person, a true patriot, for better or for worse. I can have nothing but admiration for someone who really feels the nationalism of their country, something that is rare today. However, I also see you are one easily affected by propoganda, the faithful servant of a government no matter what it does. A patriot should not be someone who serves a nation, but someone who serves the ideals of that nation. You clearly are a strong supporter of the ideals of peace, liberty, freedom, etc., that the United States stands for. But are you aware of the changes in our government since its inception? Our government is now one of the most powerful in the western worlds. The U.S. is one of the most frequent human rights violators of the first world nations. As we speak, we have liberals trying to take away our right to defend ourselves with guns, and conservatives trying to strip our freedom of religion. Is that freedom? Ask yourself, why did our government want to stop the spread of communism so badly? Why did the government illegally have communists leaders in America beaten and killed in during the Red Scares? Perhaps it is because the people in our government are the very ones that own stock in companies like Nike- they are the source of the problem, and a communist revolution would get rid of their grip on the laborers. So as a patriot, do you serve them, or justice? Just because you happen to have the luck to be a citizen in a wealthy nation gives you the right to live at the expense of half the world? If you had the bad luck to be born in Vietnam and started working in a sweathshop at 4 years old, I bet you would love capitalism then.

Capitalism is nothing more than an economic front for a plutocracy, exactly what we have in America. How many congressmen do you think are middle class or poor? Andrew Jackson is the one and only one president we have ever had that wasn't upper class. Funny how he turned out to be one of our best- he disposed of the corrupt wealthy national bank, and was the only president to pay off our national debt. I guess the capitalist idea that the wealthy are better people doesn't work.

Also worthy of note is that you seem to misunderstand the communist period of French history. France was at peace during the communist period. Everyone had work, and the people were happy. Once the economy was back on its feet, the people abandoned the communist workshops, and surprise!, hell broke loose again. Funny how history seems to constantly vindicate Marx's ideas.

And I also think you should look up the word Republic. A Republic is by definition a democracy, which uses representatives. Saying we arn't a democracy but a republic is like saying "we don't have a government, we have a federal government".

Sebu, I agree with you, people like Stalin are monsters, but they arn't communist. That is a huge misconception. People like Stalin and Lenin liked to use the name communist to try to trick the people into thinking they were for the workers, but in no way was the Soviet, Chinese, Cuban, or any other so called "communist" government of today a communist government.

As for the idea centralized economies always fail- lets look at the soviet union. As I said before, not communist, but a centralized economy will do. Under the soviet system, the economy, while not that strong (Russia never had a strong economy), was not failing. Now that they have reverted to capitalism, they are in serious debt and have a terrible economy. THere are lot of U.S. propoganda about the soviet economy too. For example, in the "famine" in the 60's and 70's when supposedly there was mass hunger in the soviet union, the average person in the soviet union still had 6x more food than the average person in the United States.

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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 10:54 AM   #11
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Your theory has holes not unlike mine

This rant is running great. The problem is finding the time to respond to everything you said.

I will start with your reference to NIKE at it's "sweat shops" ohh the horror. Most of these companies were invited to these contries by there governments. In vietnam the state controlled workers government. What is ham-stringing those governments from developing from the 3rd to 2nd world is there politics. I FEEL NO PITY FOR THEM, they work there at wages that are much higher than the wages that existed before those businesses showed up. It is the free market at work. Money that would not have been in those countries is now there.

While this seems barbaric in the age of the modern media the world is getting better as a whole, just not fast enough for some people. Remember that spot "sweat shop spot" is on the news to sale advertising time to NIKE.

I am not a blind patriot. I actively work within my countries system to bring about change. The Constitution, Dec of IND, and federalist papers are the foundation of most of my political idealism. I dread the day they try to git rid of the 2nd Amend because it will be a bugle call to all true patriots. I think though we can prevent all this by educating others on the ideals of our country.

The one danger you should watch is ingesting the large amounts of revisionist history that you are excepting at face value. What document proves the amount of food the average Russian had in the 60s and 70s? Who authored it, propbably some Marx loving Harvard Half-wit who has never had a job outside of a university. Russia sucked and it's people suffered, I don't remember many Americans defecting to Russia or people jumping the fence to get into west Berlin, if they had we would not have shot at them from our side.

If the French abandoned these ideals wouldn't anyone else. No marxist society has lasted and the only way to make them last is to implement CONTROL, BOOM FREEDOM is gone. The American system is imperfect, but it is more perfect than any other one. If this is not true we would not be the only true thriving super power left. The key to America is not equality like many think, it is opportunity, any one who has the desire to, can thrive in this society and thats what many can't stand, when you fail here it is because you didn't apply yourself 90% of the time.
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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 11:06 AM   #12
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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 12:10 PM   #13
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Zundy:
I think you mean a country whose citizens place full trust in their government, the laws and those people running the government. Also a country in which government is never corrupt.

Then you have a starting point for a ultra socialist/communist country.

I think that even in a theocracy the citizens will still not be ready for such a state of economy were they not able to trust in their government.

A communist country needs all its citizens focused on the "big picture" - the betterment of both self within certain moral strictures and for the good of all others around regardless. Sorta like the Star Trek universe (- I may be wrong here since I aint that much of a trekkie.)
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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 12:23 PM   #14
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is the free market at work [/quote]
Exactly my point. And before anyone says it: Vietnam is not communist, just more dictators using the name. And the fact that the government invited Nike there is irrelevant. The ideal of Capitalism is that someone who works hard should become wealthy. While this sometimes work, the Nike sweatshops are a good example of the 50% of the world where it doesn't. Does Michael Jorden do more work than the people in those sweatshops? According to the salleries, Jordan does over 34722x more work. But of course he does relativly little. The workers in Vietnam labor most of their waking day to bring you your shoes in conditions that arn't fit to support human life. Michael Jordan gets taped doing a few slam dunks a couple times a year to advertise the shoes.

I hardly consider the documented ammount of food rationed in the Soviet Union to be revisionist. As annoying as revisionists can be, they usually don't resort to falsifing information. I'm afraid I don't remember what the source was for that information, so its not very good evidence, but I thought I should mention it anyway. The book I read it from attacked revisionists accounts of history though, so I doubt it was one itself.

The communist government in France was never never meant to be permanent and never totally adopted communism, but it shows that true democratic communism works. If the economy was in ruin, and the communist system revived it, I see that as pretty strong evidence in support of communism. You say "no marxists society", but France is the only Marxist society in world history, so I don't know what other government you are referring to.

I would have serious reservations about touting America as the land of opportunity. Opportunity requires equality. If a middle class man (or woman) can't participate in government, how can this be a land of opportunity?

And America is not a superpower because of its economic and politcal system, it is a world power because of Eisenhower's and Roosevelt's ingenious political maneuverings. Most historians consider America a world power coming out of the 1st World War. Eisenhower, and FDR later, both entered the World War rather late. Consequently, America was mostly unharmed while the rest of te undustrialized world was ravaged.

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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 12:40 PM   #15
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Zundy:
I think you mean a country whose citizens place full trust in their government, the laws and those people running the government. Also a country in which government is never corrupt. [/quote]
Wrong, I mean a theocracy (a theocracy is a government run by the church)

The only way communism works is in small agricutlural communities where everyone knows everyone else (and is related to most everyone else) and where their government is seen as an agent of God himself and who's leaders use the bible (or tora or koran or writings of budah or whatever) to rule the people.

People will not willfuly submit to absolute authority unless they think they will go to hell for it.

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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 12:55 PM   #16
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But communism does not call for absolute authority, it calls for democratic elections. And communism requires a completely seperate church and state.

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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 02:21 PM   #17
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But if the government owns everything (and by definition that's what communism is), then they own you.

So the end result of communism is ALWAYS totalitarianism.

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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 02:23 PM   #18
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The government owns nothing. Collectivism, the property aspect of communism, is the belief that everything belongs to everyone. If the government owns the property, then the property is owned by a single entity, and its right back to capitalism, only its the government being the capitalist. That is fascism. Fascism and communism are idealogical enemies because of that.

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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 02:56 PM   #19
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"But take a look worldwide and you will find out that capitalism DOESN'T work."

What country is Captialist? If I take a look worldwide, I see nothing but governments who THINK regulation is the solution. The way things look now, it appears they are wrong.

Communism or communes, as described by Rogue Leader, could easiliy exist in a Capitalist nation. In a Capitalist nation, deviod of all political power except in enforcing contracts and securing rights, the citizens could easily form communes without hesitation. This is because there would be no power PREVENTING them to do so. A group of Citizens, by their own free will, choose to mold their property together and work for each others sake.

I don't know how many times I must say this but big business does not necessarily support laissez-faire. In laissez-faire the government has no say in the economy, thus, big business can't lobby for supply restrictions, price fixes, or regulation which primarily hurts those who can't afford to be hurt.

"...50% of the world's population doesn't make enough money to eat the minimum amount of food to live on."

If that were true, then why is the world population at 6 billion and still growing?

As to why Micheal Jordon makes so much more money than a Vietnamise woman, supply and demand. How many people are as popular and had as much skill than Mr. Jordon? Now, how many people can sit in a factory and make shoes?

If the US were to force corporations to quit doing business with these countries there would be even greater poverty. Why? Even less people would be employed, and earning. I would have to research this more but, I have heard 20 bucks buys a lot more in some of those "sweat shop" countries.

"That woman is giving you the basics to live..."

Shoes are needed for survival?

"yet under your idea of a fair and just economic system she is starved to death so some billionaire executive can get a few extra cents"

Again, you fail to grasp what is Capitalism. IT IS NOT ment to be "fair". For it to BE fair would require some authority to use force to achieve a "fair" deal.

"force railroads to give him rebates"

How did he do this?

"I would suggest you don't criticize what you don't understand"

Likewise.

"Wealthy nation"

Translation: The least intervening.

Plutocracy? I guess you haven't read the two articles I have posted. If anything, interventionist governments are more compatible with plutocracy.

Now that Russia has converted to Capitalism? *Bangs head against wall* Russia is slowly attempting to buy up media outlets. That is Captitalist?

How will a Marxist nation deal with those citizens who wish to work for their own self-interest?

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Old 2nd Feb 2001, 03:20 PM   #20
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One more thing

"That is fascism. Fascism and communism are idealogical enemies because of that."

Capitalism is not fascism, fascism requires a interventionist authority which a Capitalist nation lacks.

Actually, Hitler(National Socialist) borrowed some fascist ideas from Mussolini concerning political economy.

It is true that fascists truely despise those with differing opinions, although ironically fascism borrows many ideologies from various sources.

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