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Old 25th Jan 2001, 02:37 AM   #1
HappymaN
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Friendly Fire Online...

How is friendly fire going to be handled in 2.85? I think it should be included with the following setup:

The damage should be set to 75%, and the person who fired the rounds (or threw the grenade) should be thrown out of the round immediately. This should be alright as long as there are no immature idiots out there destined to ruin it for everyone. Hmmmmmmm.... Suicide bomber, interesting...


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Old 25th Jan 2001, 03:02 AM   #2
billlee
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Turn FriendlyFire Punishment up to 100%

Version 2.82 allows you to penalise a player for shooting team members. If you turn it up to 100%, then any PK behaviour is self limiting as no damage is done to the target and all the damage rebounds to the PK. Try turning it to 100% and you'll see how annoying the bots can be, when they wander into your line of fire or you can't get them to move (and *need* to shoot one to get it to move).
See:
Options>Infiltation Settings>Settings>FriendlyFire Punishment

I presume that version 2.85 will have a similar setting for online play.

Bill Lee
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 03:19 AM   #3
The_Fur
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I oppose such anti-tk measures as kill-shooters, miror damage and freeze-shooters, they completely **** up the realism of the game and ruin the immersion for me. I would rather have a tk-forgive system. In which the TK'd person can forgive the TK in case of an accident.

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 05:14 AM   #4
billlee
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PK/TK Deterrence

I think that you should have the choice of whether there should be deterrence of anti-social behaviour in games.

If you want anti-TK/anti-PK behaviour to be allowed, then you should have that choice. Just as others should be allowed to have draconian penalties for the same. Its up to you and the people you play with.

The problems is that 'realism' is a flexible concept with - one that you must trade off against playability and other factors.

Let's consider a real hostage-rescue taking place in a friendly country. If you kill or wound team members, you might have two countries' police forces investigating why, say, three bullets from your M9 were found in the back of one of your team members. Even if you were not jailed for this, it is unlikely you would ever be on such a team again. And would you trust another team member with such as history anyway? In Real Life™, killing or injuring team members has huge penalty.

In other Real Life™ situations, killing or injuring team members might not be such a problem. Consider a modern version of the Belgian Congo with mercenaries, or mercenaries in ex-Yugoslavia - some of them were totally out of control with a law-of-the-jungle command structure. If you want to 'frag' your team leader in the heat of battle, then as long as you weren't caught, then you may get away with it.

In game 'reality', after a mission everyone 'gets up' and probably starts a new games mission. Any traitorous behaviour may be forgiven - or might not be - but regardless of this there are people left to tell tales. In Real Life™, the dead are telling no tales and only forensic science and witnesses can provide the accusatory finger. Guilt is not so easily forgiven and the consequences to the Real Life™ team member are usually infinitely worse.

Can you imagine playing a game of INF where if you were found to have shot a team member, you were never allowed to play INF with those players again? Pretty much that is the normal Real Life™ consequences of PK/TK behaviour.

So - which reality do you want for TK/PK behaviour:
1) No 'penalty' during the game, but after the game you might be forever banned from playing (Real Life™),
or,
2) PK/TK behaviour is punished immediately with mirror damage, freezes, etc,
or,
3) All behaviour is allowed, no server-enforced consequences, no long term penalty except for having others refusing to play you based on your previous behaviour.
All of these are possible, and I wouldn't expect that everyone would agree on the same reality of game play. After all, it is just a game.

I have been practicing with FriendlyFire Punishment set to 100%, on the basis that a some time when INF goes online you are going to have human team members running into your line of fire. They may not be amused that you have have decided that your math calculations go something like if you drop a grenade in the window:
2 enemy - 1 team member = 2 good kills,
or,
2 enemy - 1 team member = 1 kill ahead,
instead of
2 enemy - 1 team member = 1 team member out of the game.

If you set the number of lives to a maximum of one (like the TacOps mod), it is extremely frustrating to be killed early in a round and have to sit around twiddling your thumbs until the next round.

Most of us consider that in order to achieve its ob jectives the math of (2 enemy - 1 team member = 1 kill ahead) is usually the operational one during a game. With mirror damage, you can sacrifice yourself if this is what is needed instead of making the choice for another team member.

Bill Lee
p.s. Sorry for the long posting - I think its an important topic.
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 05:22 AM   #5
HappymaN
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An important topic indeed.
By the way, what does P/K and T/K stand for?

And while I'm asking questions, why the hell does this forum say there are 11 HappymaN's logged in? Something to do with my proxy? If you ask me, that's just Happy overkill.

Happy Out

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[This message was edited by HappymaN on Jan 25, 2001 at 06:25.]

[This message was edited by HappymaN on Jan 25, 2001 at 06:26.]
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 06:54 AM   #6
JaFO
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T/K = Team killed by 'friendly' fire ?
P/K = Player killed by 'friendly' fire ?
// ------------------------------------------
IMHO the real problem isn't the accidental 'friendly fire'-incident, but those sad excuses for a human being who shoot or kill their own teammembers on purpose.

Mirrordamage and things like that might look like a good countermeasure, BUT it will not teach these guys anything.

Considering the fact that unless tells you what the punishment is for 'friendly fire' it is extremely annoying having to learn this after the fact.

Imagine :
you join midgame and you shoot, what you think is an "enemy" but then you die/loose health.
What do you think happened ?
- Did an (unseen) enemy shoot you ?

and IF you know 'friendly fire' is on :
- Were you hit by friendly fire ? (if people don't read the manual do you even think they would bother with looking at the 'friendly fire'-percentage in the serverlist ????)

only if you somehow know that the server uses 'mirror'-damage :
- Did you just shoot someone on your team ?

A teamkiller wouldn't begin to think about this last possibility, instead they would assume that they've been shot by a 'fellow' teamkiller and try to shoot them.

- Hindsight is always 20/20 -
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 07:07 AM   #7
billlee
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PK = Player Killer, TK = Team (member) Killer

I was using PK for player killer, i.e. someone who explicitly kills their human online team members for some reason or for no reason at all. Naturally, this can piss off other players who often retaliate, ban known PKs from their games, or gang up on the PK until they leave or change their behaviour. Of course, in Deathmatches (DM) there are no PKs since there are no teams.

TKs are PKs who also kill bots on their own team (and honestly who amongst us have not wanted to kill bots for their stupidity?)

With both PK/TK, it is more than just a team member accidently getting in the line of fire or obtaining a multi-kill at the cost of a team member. I think most of us have done it at least once, but with PK/TKs it is a habitual thing.

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 08:58 AM   #8
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Maybe we need 'Koala' bots?

> You join midgame and you shoot what you think is an "enemy" but then you die/lose health.
> What do you think happened?
> - Did an (unseen) enemy shoot you?
Does it matter? You are doing things you shouldn't be doing, or in a place that is unhealthy to be. Either way it's time to take cover and evaluate. What are you doing shooting at a target that you aren't *sure* is an enemy anyway?

I know that at the moment that all we have to shoot are bots, and that if you hesitate, then they certainly won't since they know who is friend or enemy automatically. Once online, you will see many changes in the way INF is played. Some will not like the changes. Some will. But it will change the way you play if there are penalties for twitch kills and being wrong. This will slow down play - but this is also being more realistic. Most military operations are not free fire zones and have definite rules of engagement.

> and IF you know 'friendly fire' is on:
> - Were you hit by friendly fire ?
> (if people don't read the manual do you even think they would bother
> with looking at the 'friendly fire'-percentage in the serverlist ????)
Ummm, I guess that's their problem if they don't believe that there are consequences of being wrong.

> only if you somehow know that the server uses 'mirror'-damage:
> - Did you just shoot someone on your team?
As anyone who has been in the military/police will tell you, they have been trained to identify their target before they open fire. You must be sure of what your target is before you start shooting in Real Life™. This is also one of the ten commandments of shooting. And its there for a good reason. Even if you think this doesn't apply for the military in wartime, it does: can you imagine shooting at a man sitting on the crestline of a hill with your M16-A2 and finding out that it is a enemy tank commander in a hull-down tank. Or worse still, finding out it is your battalion's Intelligence officer on a recce mission (and lost!).
Another of the ten commandments is to watch your line of fire: both between you and the target and after the target. Treat your bot team members well - you'll be amazed how much more stupid they seem when they continually run into your line of fire, die, and then you have to clean up the mess they left. A bit like letting a Doom player into an INF game really...;-)
Spectacular RL™ mistake: New York Police shot a man reaching for his wallet - 41 shots, 19 hits.

> A teamkiller wouldn't begin to think about this last possibility,
> instead they would assume that they've been shot by a 'fellow' teamkiller
> and try to shoot them.
This is supposed to be one of the differences between your average FPS (First Person Shooter) and INF. Most of the FPSs rely to a large part on twitch reflexes to aim and shoot. Some of us are too old to beat the 'young-uns' at this - or believe that this is unrealistic. Even the wild west really had most of it's shootouts decided by a shotgun/rifle - not by quick-drawn revolvers in the town's main street. The basic theme of Doom was to run as fast as you could and shoot anything that moved. Most FPSs still assume that basic model. As for the TK joining a mirror-damage game, think "Evolution In Action."

Bill Lee
P.S. a 'Koala' bot - from the term Koala referring to Australia's National Servicemen. They were conscripted Australian soldiers who were called Koalas since they, like Koalas at the time, could not be sent overseas, nor shot at. In this case, a Koala bot is one that you can't shoot and should treat with care and love. Civilian-bot anyone? Refugee-bot?
P.P.S. Imagine: "The Blue team are UN observers. Please do not shoot them. They will not shoot, they are here to make sure everyone observes the 'Peace'." (Hint: think South Lebanon 1982, or Srebrenica 1995).
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 09:49 AM   #9
DEAN
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You can shoot but can you run...?

For those of you who hav'nt played "SWAT 3" before, shooting one of your team leads to AI aggresion that took be by surprise the first time it happened.

No matter where you are or how fast you run your buddies hunt you down 'BIG TIME' until ye be dead.

If only they were as profficient when killing the bad guys....


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Old 25th Jan 2001, 10:22 AM   #10
JaFO
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Give me some 'Koala'-bots please

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...
Ummm, I guess that's their problem if they don't believe that there are consequences of being wrong.[/quote]
yes, it IS their fault.
But it isn't the most newbie-friendly way, which is something that has to be considered too.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
P.P.S. Imagine: "The Blue team are UN observers. Please do not shoot them. They will not shoot, they are here to make sure everyone observes the 'Peace'." (Hint: think South Lebanon 1982, or Srebrenica 1995).
[/quote]
There is a difference : it sort of worked in Lebanon, but it failed (completely) in Srebrenica.
Would make a great idea for a map though :
just have a bunch of civilian- or UN-bots running around in there, with 'friendly-fire' penalties for shooting them.

- Hindsight is always 20/20 -
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 10:59 AM   #11
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actually t/k was to some extent a valid tactic in earlier versions. me and a friend did a lot of lan play playing assault. with 2.75 against bots. with only one life. pretty quickly figured out hey, if you tk the guy it doesn't count against his life. so when one of us was down to nill since we used a no health mutator we'd just drop all our ammo and weapons and tk the other guy. when he respawns and catches up you give him the weapons back.

have you ever been playing the bots and you open up on one of them but his teamamte behind him gets the killing bullet in. then you assume he's dead and he takes you by surprise later on.

just pointing out that in lan games and so on when you can trust everybody it's not a problem. you'd mostly just run in to acidental shootings. and if it becomes a problem you can just beat the person up since he's right there. same thing probably goes with clan play to some extent.


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Old 25th Jan 2001, 11:35 AM   #12
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I'm with Styx, I say they have a system which allows a player who takes friendly-fire, to forgive his teammate. A player should get 2 strikes or something. If he hits a teammate, that teammate is presented an option:

"Would you like to forgive X for their friendly-fire on you? (answering NO will result in a strike against that player. 2 Strikes, and they are removed from the game.)"

If you select YES, then all is forgiven. However, if you answer NO, then that player gets a strike against them. 2 strikes, and they are automatically booted from the server.

This (of course) could be adjusted to be first-strike-and-you're-booted, or maybe 3 strikes, but it should be the same for INF as a whole, so the team should decide on how many chances they are going to allow someone, and that would be it for all of INF.


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Old 25th Jan 2001, 11:40 AM   #13
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The solution:

TK-forgive system coupled with a temporary ban.

When somebody TK's you you get an option to forgive him by a simple click of the mouse or something. When the get's 3 unforgiven TK's by the end of the round he's out of there, banned by IP for instance for 15 minutes. This will eliminate those anoying people who hang around one server all the time and make any serious gameplay impossible. They might pis of to another server but they can't do too much damage there either, this way they are but a mere nuisance.

Crosshairs are for wimps

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 12:46 PM   #14
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FF is tough to police

Friendly fire is part of real fire fights. I think the mirror punishment damage is too unrealistic to be used (so I turn it off). In an ideal game setting, everyone is playing properly and all FF incidents are accidental.

I agree that traitors are a problem online in pickup games. I stopped playing UT CTF games on servers with friendly fire damage turned on as they were just full of traitors. I could tell by checking the console to see who they had killed --usually the traitors just killed teammates; they didn't even try to kill some enemies once in a while to make it look like they were just poor players. But if an automatic system was in place, say 2-3 team kills in a row means they get kicked off, then they'll just learn how to count and throw in the odd enemy kill every now and again.

It is hard to have a realistic system that works online. The only consolation about INF vs. CTF is that INF is a mod you have to download so only people with some intention of playing properly will get it. If they just want to goof around and be a traitor they'll probably stick to the built-in CTF game.
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 12:59 PM   #15
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Forgive and Die? I don't think so

Ok...let's pretend that the forgive system has been implemented.

I am in a heavy fire-fight. A team mate leads too much or something, and clips me.
All of a sudden, in the middle of my MP5s 3-round burst, I am presented with a menu asking me if I want to forgive my team mate who just accidently shot me...while I am deciding his fate, the enemy I was engaging is filling me full of 7.62x39 rounds. My incompetent team mate survives the game, I valiantly gave my virtual life so he could continue on.

No way. Mirror damage is about the only compromise I can see that will work the best to alert a team mate to a true accident, ie it probably won't kill them, and it will help deter TKers because it will kill them and hopefully frustrate them enough to leave the game.

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 01:11 PM   #16
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Kamicosmos, I don't think you would be presented with the forgive option unless the guy KILLED YOU.

Not if He clips you.

Personally.
I want FF on,
No Mirror damage.

Besides, If you get killed by your own teamate, you just respawn in the begining of the map.

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 01:26 PM   #17
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I don't like TKs but I think realism should be the deciding factor.

In real life you can shoot and kill your buddies, there are concequences but they aren't instant.

I think if you get someone doing to much TKing then he should be kicked, that's it. Mirror damage is unrelistic, forgiveness is unrealistic, one might even argue that instantly taking the TKer out of the game is a bit unrealistic so maybe he should have to die first or he gets kicked at the end of the round.

Eventualy we'll all figure out who is doing all the TKing and server admins will just start banning them.

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 01:27 PM   #18
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how bout an option that insted of banning that the tker you can kick them off your team. then if you frag them you get points, since he's not on your team. with his score permanatly stuck at 0 so he can't win. that would be the most realistic way to handle it. since in realife you ran around shooting your own team they'd mostlikely turn against you. it would also prevent those idiots who rush head long ahead of the whole team and get blasted in the back and then win and bitch about getting tked.


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Old 25th Jan 2001, 03:14 PM   #19
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Maybe the team could also implement something like Counter-Strike.

In CS, when somebody ever shoots a teammate, there is a message saying that somebody attacked a teammate. Of course that somebody is replaced by the name of the TKer. I always pay attention to that to see if people are accidentaly shooting teammates or if people are being @$$ holes and are deliberatly trying to TK.

Just an idea
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 03:20 PM   #20
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no that just leads to retaliation.

the forgive TK system is the best. All you have to do is forgive or not, this can be with a simple extra button. When a TK get's 3 unforgiven TK's he get's kicked and temp banned. Problem solved, even ig he comes back he can only screw up 1 round every 15 minutes.

We get to keep the realism and the TK gets... banned. what can be better then that?

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