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Old 24th Jan 2001, 02:19 PM   #1
Neglous8
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Weapons at the ready.

I think the "from the hip" body position should be changed. So it is more like the picture below. instead of having your rifle at a ackward position as it is now, when your not looking through the sites.

When your not looking through the sites it should look more like this. When seen from a 3rd person point of view.
]]
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Old 24th Jan 2001, 03:18 PM   #2
Wolf Being
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I agree with you entirely. The way it is now in not realistic. In fact it's so unrealistic, not even Hollywood does it that way anymore.

Get rid of the stupid hip-position.
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Old 24th Jan 2001, 03:42 PM   #3
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I think it should look like that in not only 3rd person but first person too. The only complication would be that they would have to add an animation to change its position when firing from the hip.

And actually, when you think about it people don't really fire "from the hip" No one holds a gun to their hip and fires. If you were to fire a gun without aiming you usually bring it closer to the chest still.

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Old 24th Jan 2001, 03:51 PM   #4
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i think that is more the position you get from aiming all the way down. especially the way the gun drops off your screen. I've thought something though they shuold do is allow you to hold it acrost your body when running and crawling. it's a more natural position, you can't fire but you can move faster.


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Old 24th Jan 2001, 04:31 PM   #5
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I HAVE HAD THIS IDEA SINCE 2.80!

like my new name?
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Old 24th Jan 2001, 05:55 PM   #6
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keep the hip... you CAN fire machine guns from the hip.. as amatter of fact i saw many people fire the BAR from the hip in ww2 footage.
When you run for cover and yiou want to pop a few rounds in the enemies direction you don't go into "aim" mode, you fire from the hip.

Keep the hip, low ready is in allready anyway, have you not noticed that when you move your gun low and out of the way your view can stay quite well centered?

in short.. keep the hip.

Crosshairs are for wimps

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 03:14 AM   #7
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Hip firing is used in extremely close quarters, like between buildings as an extreme measure in extreme situations. You are not axpecting to hit anything, and rightfully so, because you probably won't. In any other situation, even to squeeze off a few rounds in a general direction you will raise your weapon. That's the way it is. Even on the run you don't fire from the hip. I'm not saying it's impossible to fire fro the hip, I'm not saying it is *never, ever* done, I'm just saying it's not normal or SOP and it's considered dangerous because of the lack of control you have.

It's
just
not
realistic.

To me it's on the same level as akimbo weapons. I've seen videos of people firing akimbo, but that doesn't make it realistic. In the military, it one rifle per person and fired from the shoulder. Lowering the weapon like we all do may come close, but then we're adapting our playing style to make the game realistic where we agree it isn't. That's like turning the crosshairs off and saying TO has no crosshairs too. The only argument for keeping the hipshot as opposed to shoulder-fired is "We don't have time to code that and we don't care if it's not 100% realistic because of that." It's a valid argument but a deliberate incorporation of something *unrealistic* that should be treated as such.
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 04:14 AM   #8
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its the only way

I spent alot of time with my weapon in the infantry... not only would i be a moron... id prolly kill my battle buddy carrying a weapon like that... the guys in the pic at the top are keeping they're weapons in that position ON purpose for very good reason... thats just how it's done

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 04:30 AM   #9
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Credit

Ease up, Wolf. You said, "The only argument for keeping the hipshot as opposed to shoulder-fired is 'We don't have time to code that and we don't care if it's not 100% realistic because of that.'"

Well, maybe the development team members DON'T have time, and why would you assume they don't care? I don't mean to flame, but my goodness, you are getting an incredibly realistic and barrel-o-monkeys fun mod FOR FREE. Created for you, with loving care, without pay, by hard working people who have jobs, families and real-life responsibilities. Which would you prefer, jumping into online play within a few weeks with the animations as they are, or waiting 'till next Fall for what would, really, be a minor change? After all, you can simulate the "ready" position right now by slightly lowering your weapon.

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 05:45 AM   #10
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More weapons or technical perfection?

I don't think that anyone disagrees that the unaimed posture is not absolutely correct. But I think we can probably agree that there are other things to be done before that needs to be changed.

The number of suggestions for new weapons vastly outnumbers the requests for technical perfection in posture and stance. Where would you prefer the INF development team to spend their time?

Would you prefer a posture that required a delay (and animation) of a weapon held at the low port position swinging around to that of a firing position (from the hip) before firing commenced?

I've had another idea (of which I'm sure has already been discussed earlier):
Should the aimed stance automatically change to unaimed stance if you run or jump?

Bill Lee
P.S. A big thanks to the INF design team, and independant mapmakers for providing me with hours of enjoyment. The concept of the aiming point not being a fixed pixel on the screen is really excellent.
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 06:16 AM   #11
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No offense intended at all. I greatly appreciate the work that goes into INF and I have full understanding that it is not 'perfect', nor will it ever be. I still think it's worth trying and worth trying to get as close as possible.

However, my impression is that a lot of work is being put into implementing new weapons (which is a good thing), while other, much more basic parts of the game are still very far from realistic. You are right on, Bill Lee, woth your remarks, only that I personally think that since INF tries to distiguish itself with it's realism, first and foremost realism in the weapon handling and aiming department ("No Crosshairs"), priority should be on making the weapons in INF *right now* handled realistically rather than putting some AUG or lord knows what other "Every-other-mod-has-it-so-why-don't-we"-weapon in too. I know I'm a little bit alone with my views, but I don't dig eye-candy. INF claims to be realistic, and I'd rather there were only four different weapons, but that I feel like I'm actually handling them, rather than a dozen and the M16 is practically unusable compared to the MP5 because the reticule-implementation sucks. I also don't care if the third-person view remains the way it is. I would just like the first-person view and handling to reflect reality.

Besides, I never put a deadline in any of my posts on this subject or the 'reticules'-thread. I never even said it needed to be changed "now" or "with the over-next release", because I figure the INF team has enough other things on their mind. I don't care if it's implemented a year from now, I just think that it must be implemented someday, because otherwise we lose the distiguishing feature of this mod, namely the realistic weapons handling and aiming. Right now it isn't realistic and I'm just writing it off to the fact that it's still in development. I have no problem with that and I am making no reproaches. I'm just stating that eventually that's something that will need to be changed if you want the mod to be decently 'realistic'.

Since many still seem to think that firing from the hip is 'realistic' I make my point a little more forcefully than if we were just pointing it out, but I am still only pointing it out, because there's not really any discussion on wether firing from the hip is realistic or not, it's only a matter of knowing that it isn't, as several posts from other people who have military experience have shown. Same goes for the reticules, actually.

Again, maximum respect to the INF team for trying and for doing what they do. I myself would never find the time and I am grateful they do. But this still is the suggestion forum, right?
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 08:33 AM   #12
Neglous8
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I to have seen the BAR shooting from the hip as the soldier runs acrossed the street. Him firing his weapon like that, he was just trying to get rounds down range. Wasn't trying to hit anything. Plus if I remember correctly the BAR weighed in about 20-25 pounds. It is doubtful the serviceman could shoulder a weapon of that size and weight as he ran acrossed the street. My point is you can't hit anything from the hip. In INF if that were to happen, me personally I would call to my team member with the SAW to give me covering fire. Making it look like the fourth of July at the end of the street.

If I was alone, I would choose to stay where I was and not make myself a easier target by running out in the open. Knowing I wouldn't have back up to rely on. Or retreat by fire to get a better position on the attacking force.

Once Smoke gernades are made, then you will have a better chance of getting accrosed the street. )
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 10:22 AM   #13
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IIRC I read somewhere, that the only weapons that were shot from the hip, were LMGs(guess I even read about it in a Swiss army book about close combat - though it was old..)

Any other weapon is practically useless, when fired from the hip. Think a better position would be just below the shoulder or so, but I do not really care, since I nearly always aim. I 'simulate' a weapon at the ready by looking a bit down, which gives a better view, but you have to raise the gun before fireing.
I trust the team, guess they'll fix it if they think it's worth it.

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 11:08 AM   #14
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ok, we allready have the "low ready" position, and people do fire from the hip, not to hit anything but as a "back-off" sign to the enemy.
Firing from the hip CAN be done accurately t close-med range (up to about 25-50m max) if you train yourself to, if you don't you can't hit anything... same with INF, it's impossible to hit anything a good distance away from the hip, tho up close and personal it'll do just fine, just like IRL.

So waht exactly is the problem.

we have low-ready, hip firing is massively inaccurate, no problem here IMO.

Crosshairs are for wimps

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 11:36 AM   #15
Wolf Being
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It's not done in the military. Not that it doesn't *happen*, under stress when under fire, in a particular, extreme situation or whatever, but it's certainly not Standard Operating Procedure. You always aim your shots from the shoulder. As I have said before, it's like akimbo weapons: It can be done, may happen IRL, even in the military, but it is very unusual and it certainly isn't SOP. Shooting from the hip should be dropped for the same reasons everyone flamed people for suggesting akimbo weapons. Both are in the very same 'hollywoodesque' chapter.

But nevermind, I think I've made my point, we'll see if the team will do something about it someday or not. I'll keep playing INF even if they keep shooting from the hip, just as I play games with crosshairs and akimbo weapons.
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 12:36 PM   #16
Lord_Bunker
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it's not as bad as all the stupid mods that drop the crosshairs and the don't have the gun centered or anything like inf. you don't know what your hitting, one of the main reasons i didn't like serpentine as much as inf.


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Old 25th Jan 2001, 12:43 PM   #17
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maybe wrong but hte hip seems better

I may be wrong, but in that pic, the guns are sort of pointing at an angle, therfore if they fired straight away it would fire no in front but more at an angle. From the hip it is pointing straight ahead, (I think)and so when they fire from that position it would go roughly straigh ahead.

If they replace the hip with that pos. from the pic, they would not be able to fire straight at all.
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 01:18 PM   #18
Wolf Being
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ACK!

You don't fire like that! You carry it so you can raise it rapidly, because you *always* fire from the shoulder. In INF, you would carry it muzzle depressed (instead of 'at your hip' like now), and when you fire, it would rise. You would have to change the sighting system to something realistic to simulate 'both eyes open' close range versus 'aimed precision' longer range shooting. Something like transparent reticules, for example.

In short:
No more shooting from the hip. Always from the shoulder. Sighting that reflects reality.

I've started to dream of this discussion...
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Old 25th Jan 2001, 02:22 PM   #19
Cunubelin
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Depending on the weapon?

I've had a mental fight with myself over this issue. With only two working braincells left it wasn't much of a hassle.
My conclusion is this;
I aggree with Wolf Being on this with a little question added.
Q; How do you hold an LMG during patrol?

So perhaps the low ready for heavier weapons should be more hip? (pun intended)

In the end; Drop the hipshooting and add a 'true' low ready position instead.
Come to think of it, there IS a third way; Keep hipshooting AND add a 'true' low ready position.
That, however means MORE animations and even lower FPS...


Oh, well.
C.

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Old 25th Jan 2001, 02:39 PM   #20
JKJK
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U can't raise instantly

SOrry but I don't see the point then, except that it is more relistic. U can't raise the weapon to the sholder instantly, sot htey will have to add some sort of time delay before U could fire or something, then why not use full aim? it would take as long.

From the hip it would be instant fire.
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