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Old 30th Mar 2001, 06:17 AM   #1
The_Fur
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Silent weapons without supressor

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ex-TopSecret "Silent Cartridges" of USSR & Russia.

(c) 2000 by Max R. Popenker
During the Cold War, both sides of the "Iron Curtain" were deeply involved in many kinds of secret operations. Some of that kind did (an do) require silent removal from existence of some unwanted persons. We know, that every secret service dit that job, and some keep doing now. One of suc services was KGB.

Most of the "silenced weapons" are just silenced, not completely noiseless. Usual noise level of standart rifle cartridge is 160-165 dB. Usual way to decrease that lewel to 130-135 dB is to use sub-sonic bullets (with muzzle velocities lesser than speed of sound, ca. 300 meters per second or 900 fps) and install a "silencer" - a special muzzle device, designed to reduce sound of shoot. But as I said - that weapon complexes (gun+silencer+subsonic ammo) were not completely silent - just silenter than usual guns.

But Russian designers developed absolutely silent cartridges and weapons for them! And now and here You can see, how this were done.

There are two main sources of sound when you fire any firearm. A "Boom" from extending hot burning gases and sound of bullet, travelling on supersonic velocities. The latter problem is solved by using reduced powder charges and heavier bullets to reduce bullet speed. To remove a gas "Boom" Russian engineers developed "closed circuit" cartridges.



1 - metallic cartridge case
2 - powder charge
3 - piston & piston rod (initial position)
4 - bullet (same as 7.62mm M43)
5 - burning powder gases
6 - piston & piston rod (extended)



1 - metallic cartridge case
2 - powder charge
3 - piston (initial position)
4 - bullet (steel cylinder)
5 - burning powder gases
6 - piston (fired position)
7 - copper belt (to follow barrel rifling grooves)


Both cartridges shown were used in special purpose handguns, and the only noises heard while shooting were "click" from striker pinning primer, "clack" from moving slide (only for guns that used SP-4 loads, such as PSS special purpose handguns) and "ooh" from person killed. All hot powder gases were securely locked up in steel case by moving piston. This piston also pushed the bullet from cartridge. Of course, such loads cannot be powerful, but they are strong enough to pierce standart steel helmet at some 20 meters (60 feets) and to kill person who wear that helmet. Good enough for almost any killer!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But sometimes 20 meters is not enough. And when shooting distance grows up to 100 meters and above, you have to switch back to proven combination of standart subsonic cartridge and silencer. So, for silent operations at the distances of up to 400 meters (440 yards), Soviet engineers developed different loads. These loads - SP-5, SP-6 and, recently, PAB-9 are sub-sonic 9mm cartridges and used in VSS special purpose sniper rifle and AS special purpose assault rifle. Both weapons hawe integrated silencer. Loads itself are based on M43 case (7.62x39mm), re-necked to accept heavy 9 mm bullet. SP-5 was designed as "sniper" load and has Full Metal Jacketed bullet with small steel core and lead behind it. SP-6 was designed as "assault" load with Semi-Jacketed bullet with pointed, hardened steel core exposed at the nose of the bullet. This cartridge, when fired from VSS or AS, is capable of piercing 8mm of steel at 100 meters (110 yards). At 400 meters SP-6 is still capable to pierce 2mm steel plate. Worlds' most common cartridges that used in silenced guns are 9mm NATO and .45ACP. When compared to them, SP-5 series loads gave tvice as much muzzle energy and at least 3 times longer effective range.

Both SP-5 and SP-6 bullets weights approx. 16 gramms (ca. 235 grains). Those loads adopted by spec-op units of Soviet Union Internal Affair Ministry forces and by Soviet Army Spetznaz in 1980s and still in service with different Russian special operations forces.

PAB-9 is recently developed and more cheap version of SP-6. It also has heavier bullet - 17.3 gramms (ca. 255 grains) with hardened steel core




[/quote]

From world.guns.ru

Seems like a nice idea, a perfectly silent AKSU with drum mag . But then again the AKSU uses the gas to cycle to the next round right? so that wouldn't be possible i guess, you'd have to manually recock te rifle after every shot.
So basically you turn it into a perfectly silent bolt actionrifle with a 75 round mag

For longer range you'd need the last series of bullets, unfortunately they are in 9mmx39 so you'd need either an upgraded AKSU or something like a Bison SMG.

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[This message was edited by The_Fur on Mar 30, 2001 at 07:27.]
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Old 30th Mar 2001, 06:43 AM   #2
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Very interesting but unless I am mistaken(and I am NOT a gun expert), in order to "silence"(suppress is a better word) a weapon you need to either use subsonic ammo or a suppressor, both of which lower the muzzle velocity of the round being fired thus reducing it's effectiveness(ie. "stopping power"). If I want a suppressed weapon, I will use the MP5..otherwise, I want stopping power! Besides, doing that to the AKMSU would,in my opinion, unbalance the weapons in Inf.

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Old 30th Mar 2001, 06:47 AM   #3
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please read the text
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Old 30th Mar 2001, 10:02 AM   #4
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Wow. That would be really freaky with something like the AKMSU. Can you get 'silent' .50 BMG rounds...hehe
Then I'll be happy
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Old 30th Mar 2001, 11:37 AM   #5
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A "telescoping captured piston" version of the .50 BMG would not be as powerful as the regular one. The burning of gases in a conventional cartridge pushes the bullet, whereas these special rounds have a very small powder charge "punching" the bullet. No push over time, just an initial kick. AFAIK, these are specialized for close-range assasinations.

However, this system is not new. The USN SEALS in Vietnam used a "silent shotgun shell" based off the same idea, except the piston was part of the case and telescoped like a radio antenna. Problem? When you need a shotgun, you probably don't need subtlety!
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Old 30th Mar 2001, 02:58 PM   #6
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Thats pretty cool, but I'm not sure if it has a place in Infiltration.

<img src="http://roguescript.hypermart.net/sig2.jpg" style="border: 1px solid black">

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Old 31st Mar 2001, 05:53 AM   #7
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An MP5 SD sounds very silent to me.

But it goes to show you that the Russians are truely Amazing
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Old 31st Mar 2001, 08:54 AM   #8
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The US even experimented with silent shotgun shells in Vietnam. Said to have produced 'acceptable results', yet was never put into production.

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Old 31st Mar 2001, 09:09 AM   #9
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Fur, I DID read the text. I find it quite interesting, but I don't think it would 'fit' in with Infiltration. Now, if you hade a game with covert assassinations...mmmm.

Correction: I missed that last part..sorry Fur..about the rounds made for longer distances. My bad. Read most of the post, then got lazy and just 'skimmed' the last bit.

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Old 31st Mar 2001, 12:50 PM   #10
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but I don't think it would 'fit' in with Infiltrationp[/quote]

well we have the mp5 with supressor right? so why does that fit in more then just a different ammo-type?

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Old 31st Mar 2001, 12:58 PM   #11
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It fits because the MP5 is used extensively by the U.S.(and other countries, I assume). The ammunition you are speaking of is relatively unknown and apparently isn't too widespread. The Infiltration team is 'mainly' using weapons and ammo currently in widespread use.

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Old 31st Mar 2001, 01:32 PM   #12
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well the mp5 with supressor is hardly a front line weapon.

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Old 31st Mar 2001, 01:39 PM   #13
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Maybe not, but it IS used by many special forces units as THE close quarters combat weapon. Granted, the Desert Eagle isn't used by many(if at all) forces..but it looks SO damn cool(IMHO)! This argument is probably a moot point anyway, the ammo you are talking about is not in widespread use and that, in and of itself, will probably keep it out of Infiltration. Nothing against you, Fur, but I have seen suggestions for weapons that were met with the same reasons so can't see this as being any different. I still think a silenced weapon with a 75 round mag. would unbalance things a little, although it would be cool to hose down an entire team without them knowing where it was coming from.


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Old 31st Mar 2001, 03:47 PM   #14
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The thing is you can't hose down anything with it, because from what i know most weapons use the gasses from the explosion that propells the bullet to cycle the mechanism and eject the shell.

So basically you'd have to manually cycle after every shot or use a weapon that cycles on for instance the trigger pull.

correct me if i'm wrong.

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