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Old 13th May 2001, 05:01 PM   #1
Sebu_NZ
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Well I'm sure all the Americans will, and most of the other folks.

What are your thoughts on this?

1) Re-Trail, it doesn't matter if the 3000 documents were his purchase from McDonalds, there has to be a Re-Trail.

I mean some Americans were scream that it might be the law that you had to wear a sit belt (Oh good god I have lost my liberty!), yet if you oppose this you are leaving out the most fundamental part of your constitution and so-called free country that every citizen should have a fair trial. Without out that, your nothing more than USSR.

2) The days of J. Hoover aren't over sunshine.
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Old 13th May 2001, 05:24 PM   #2
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Every trial up to this point is nullified. If there was evidence that could have possibly in any way contributed in the slightest to McVeigh, then his conviction is no longer valid. It doesn't matter what neo-Nazi Ashcroft says about it having to have signifigant reason to overturn his conviction. When evidence, any evidence, is not turned over to the defense, then it is a mis-trial. To now say that he is guilty until proven innocent is proof that the government is every bit as evil as McVeigh said it was. I also find it sick that McVeigh is considered so evil when the fascist murderers who slaughtered the people at Waco for particing their constitutional rights were never convicted and even promoted even though every outside source says that the FBI report is a load of crap. McVeigh's only mistake was taking out the puppets and not the puppeteers.
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Old 13th May 2001, 06:30 PM   #3
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Wait a sec

You're comparing wearing the seatbelt to the execution on a man responsible for over one hundred innocent deaths? It not a freedom thing, it's the fact that this a<b></b>sshole murdered people and has still managed to avoid death through those fu<b></b>cking attorneys. It's the delay of the inevitable, and it's pointless, and many people want revenge for what he did to their loved ones. You have a valid point, but you are only looking at it from one angle. This guy should be killed asap, that's the bottom line.
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Old 13th May 2001, 07:11 PM   #4
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Weather he is guilty or not is irrelative. The man, and all American citizens deserve a fair and equal trail.

If some Serbian bomber had been convicted and then it was later found that the police withheld (misplaced my ****ing ass) evidence I'm sure you would be screaming injustice, If he was in America that wouldn't happen.

Weather you like it or not the man under the laws of the land has and needs to have a fair a equal trail.
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Old 13th May 2001, 07:30 PM   #5
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Innocent? Members of an entity that slaughter thousands of people for believing they have rights are hardly innocent.
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Old 13th May 2001, 08:21 PM   #6
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1: I agree that everyone needs a fair trial... whoever is responsible for not turning evidence over the defense should be fired; I'm sick of that kind of BS (even if he is definately guilty, going about the trial in a sloppy manner is just f*cked up, and may just delay justice further).

2: Were the little kids part of that entity too, Rogue? Maybe over 100 innocent people didn't die that day, but innocent people did die. McVeigh is a coward, and a pathetic excuse for a human being. I just wish we could kill him by blowing him up with a bomb, instead of by lethal injection.
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Old 13th May 2001, 08:35 PM   #7
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McVeigh's only mistake was taking out the puppets and not the puppeteers.
Only forums and barrooms can you get away with such an assinine statement
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Old 13th May 2001, 08:51 PM   #8
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Innocent? Members of an entity that slaughter thousands of people for believing they have rights are hardly innocent.
Yes, we must all resist against the brutal masses of preschooler, and working class citizens that may hinder your nice ten hour sleep, in a cozy white middle class suburb.
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Old 13th May 2001, 10:47 PM   #9
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McVeigh is a patriot and a soldier. He fought against what he believed was a corrupt government (and he was right); he had the balls to stand up and say "F*ck you, you're not pushing me around anymore". He stood up for what he believed in. For that I respect and admire him.

But McVeigh made some bad decisions. I understand and sympathize with his plight, although bombing a building full of civilians was NOT a good idea. However, that was his decision and now he has to live and die with the consequences. I certainly think there's more to this whole story than we know, and the revealing of thousands of pages of evidence only reinforces that. Should McVeigh be sentenced to death? Yes, probably. But certainly not before he's had a fair trial.
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Old 13th May 2001, 10:54 PM   #10
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Exclamation

MOderators lock this thread before any more insanity creeps in....
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Old 13th May 2001, 11:03 PM   #11
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It is more important that due process is followed to the letter of the law then for the punishment of any criminal.

I would rather that every i be dotted and every t crossed and McVeigh get out on a technicality then for us to execute him with doubt.


Oliver Wendell Holmes said it best "It is better that 100 guilty men go free then to punish one innocent man."

If we don't hold law enforcement to the letter of the law then we justify everything McVeigh stands for.

Quote:
McVeigh is a patriot and a soldier. He fought against what he believed was a corrupt government (and he was right);
I don't believe he was right, I don't believe that the American government is corrupt. I do believe there are corrupt factions within our government (and I believe the ATF is one of them). But they must be weeded out within the law. It is not time to turn to violent revolution...yet

I also don't believe that his actions where even remotely honorable. He is indeed a coward, and not a patriot or soldier. Had he walked in to the ATF office fully armed and opened fire, then maybe we could consider him a "soldier" but bombing a building just to strike fear into people's hearts or "send a message" is not the actions of a soldier, but of a terrorist.

When a soldier bombs a building it's because destruction of the building would serve a tactical or strategic purpose. A terrorist bombs a building just to kill innocents and frighten people. Bombing the federal building in OKC gained his cause no tactical advantage (in fact it was a very weak attempt to gain support for his cause...it failed).
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Old 13th May 2001, 11:47 PM   #12
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Be sure to shut off your talk radio ......There are some whackoes out there!!!!!!!!!!!!


going nuts myself...
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Old 14th May 2001, 12:05 AM   #13
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Lock it, no way dude

The fact remains that he must have a retrail.

Personal I think he is a scum bag, but the whole idea of him not having a proper case almost destroys what you people love and fighted for.
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Old 14th May 2001, 07:26 AM   #14
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The FBI and BATF murdered children, too. But they are promoted?
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Old 14th May 2001, 07:43 AM   #15
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A patriot and a soldier?! Gryphon, while I respect everyone's right to their opinion, this is lunacy! Terrorists believe themselves to be patriot and soldiers, yet they kill people indiscriminately, just to get their point across. OK, he stuck by his convictions, whooptefriggin' do. You want to be a patriot, you want to be a soldier, then go to the root of the problem, try to get at the people who matter..not the innocents. The ONLY mistake in how this whole thing was handled was that someone should've capped his ass when they first apprehended him.."Oops, my finger slipped!".

The government is corrupt...really? I hadn't thought of that. News flash: most governments around the world are corrupt to some degree, it's unavoidable (apparently) once you get people into power. I believe areas of the U.S. govt. are corrupt, but to say the ENTIRE thing is corrupt is just making a gross generalization.

I would tend to beleive that people in the confederacy thought of themselves as patriots and soldiers as well, it doesn't mean that they were correct in their beliefs.

I do agree that if any evidence was not brought forth, than he does deserve another trial. Good luck finding a jury, however.
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Old 14th May 2001, 09:31 AM   #16
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The FBI and BATF murdered children, too. But they are promoted?
non-sequitur



The crimes of the FBI and BATF are a separate issue, so just because there is a case of injustice that means we should throw justice out the window in all cases?



I agree that people in the FBI and BATF (and more to the point the people pulling their strings...namely Reno and Clinton) should be thrown in jail for their crimes (actually Clinton should be shot for treason, but that's for some other issues). That still doesn't change the fact that McVeigh was part of the murder of many innocent people, and he should be punished for that.
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Old 14th May 2001, 05:41 PM   #17
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I do not believe they are a seperate issue. Had our government truly believed in justice and the rule of law those men would be punished and civilians would not have had to die for justice to be done. When the government begins slaughtering its citizens it should be prepated for the citizens to retaliate. When the government begins militarzing cops with programs like the FBI and BATF, then it should expect that people will be forced to resort to terrorism to stop them. This is the clearest example I have ever seen of the government consolidating power. And once again it is proof that our media is under the control of the state. When the media reports about the bombing we see nothing but official government images, showing only the hurt people. How many government images show the burnt bodies of women and children at Waco? The journalists who were there, who might have revealed the government's murders with their independent footage, were beaten and had their footage destroyed. The Waco report is a load of crap, every independent study done concluded the government started the attack on Waco. The government knows what it did and it knows that if it got out they would have hell to pay. The government also seemed to take a hint from Roosevelts stratagy in letting the Japanese attack so we could join the war. The government knew there would be a terrorist attack on the federal building and failed to act on it. This is just another excuse for the government to seize more power. And they did. Now killing a government employee results in a heftier punishment. That defines the people in the government as above the rest of society. And now the FBI "misplaced" files. You don't just missplace 3100 documents. I suppose someone just decided to hide them where no one would find them for safe keeping? Yeah, right. The defense attorneys asked for those documents repeatedly and no one gave a damn. The FBI found the files over a month ago and they only now are briging them to the light of day. This is obviously timed very deliberatly and with a very specific reason...
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Old 14th May 2001, 05:50 PM   #18
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Just so no one misinterprets me, I am not saying McVeigh is a great person. But I am saying the crimes of the government are far worse. I find it a sickening paradox that the government that commited a crime much worse than McVeigh's, a crime which led to McVeigh's crime, is now allowed to execute him. What cannot, in my opinion, be disputed, is that the FBI and BATF murdered innocent people at Waco. The only study that supports the idea that the government was not at fault was the one done by the government.

Never let the fox guard the hen house.

The people responsible for those crimes have in some cases been promoted, in others granted a law office in Harlem. Obviously, in that case, our government did not bring justice upon the criminals. And when our government does not do justice, it is up to the people to. McVeigh's attack was off target. Had he done his other plan, to assasinate those responsible, I am proud to say I would think he was a great man. Those men he was going to target were criminals and McVeigh was the people's last hope for justice. But he went after people who wern't responsible, which everyone acknowledges is no hero's way of doing things. But when we get back to the question of whether he should be given a new trial: definitly. When we let the government, which is worse than McVeigh, execute him for crimes, there is far too much hypocrisy in that. Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.
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Old 14th May 2001, 06:08 PM   #19
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question RL

if you hate america so much...

when your 18 and don't have to stick it out with the folks, where are you going to immatrage to??
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Old 14th May 2001, 07:02 PM   #20
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One note about Waco: the compound was was under seige for HOW long? At any time the women and children could've come out and surrendered, so could the men for that matter, but they didn't. They were warned repeatedly, but doggedly stuck to their guns(I must admire them a bit for that). At the very least, they should have released the children. You can't tell me they had absolutely no idea that force might be used. I'm betting they figured that there would be no violence precisely because they had women and children in their midst. Was Waco mishandled by the Govt.? Yeah, it probably was, but at the same time, Koresh had to see that coming.

Conspiracy theories abound these days, there is one out there for almost everything. Is the Government corrupt? In some ways, yeah. But to merely point to it and deny the responsibilities of Mcveigh, Koresh, and others in the tragedies that have occured is to deny obvious facts. Government bashing seems to be the national pastime these days, not baseball.

I have yet to see any definitive, irrefutable proof of the Governments hand in any of these events. Some of you say that is because the Govt. has suppressed the evidence...convenient isn't it? The Government can't win, if they deny anything, they are lying. If they say there is no evidence, they are lying. It's the perfect catch 22, especially from a conspiracy theorist standpoint.

If you know of proof of these conspiracies, please let me know where the websites are, I would like to read them, and if I think I am wrong in my stance, I will be the first to admit it. Please, let me know where I can find these 'facts'..I am open minded enough to admit when I am wrong.

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, does this apply to the 'government' as well, or just the accused criminals(actually, the government could be considered an 'accused criminal', so it should be presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt...works both ways doesn't it?)
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