Killing a man's feet

[BrownCow]

Just out of curiousity, in the long run is the inf team planning on doing anything so people can't "shoot your feet to death"?

Know what i'm talking about? Like when someone shoots your hands or feet, and you die.. You don't die from your hands being shot.. Unless of course they are shot by the whole drum of the ak, you'd pass out from pain at least, or just bleed to death, you'd have no hands..

But in any case, it is really lame, and all games have it, not just inf.(getting beat in a fighting game because you were tripped too many times). It would just be neat if you couldn't be "finished off" with some cheap foot/hand shot.. Even arms and legs sometimes.. I know the legs got some blood in em, but 2 shots in the leg shouldn't kill you.. If you get shot up in the legs you will just be in a slower prone stance... and if you get shot in the arms you just aim really really bad...


Hell, tupac took 6 in the chest and he lived....


Anyone who is gunna just flame, keep it to yourself, i don't care what you have to say. This is directed at the inf team.

[The_Fur]

I played OFP a few mins ago and I liked the ability to shoot people in the legs to immobilise them, those damn americans don't run so fast with a couple 5.45mm rounds in their legs

[BrownCow]

HEY! We can run good, we have good boots!

[LifesBane[4C]]

I think this may be possible, as I have seen a "Crotch Shot" mutator, so I know that different damage zones can be done besides the head.

But...
People could die from being shot in the feet, or hands or legs.
Bullets, like those in the M16, are designed to ricochet around once they enter the body. Rarely does a shot go from front to back. Many times, you would be shot in the stomach, and the exit wound could be in the back of the chest.

[The_Fur]

Uhm, no...

The 5.56NATO doesn't ricochet, it fragments, the bullet breaks up into tiny pieces that shred the target up on the inside, but the =effect depends on how think the area where you were hit is, For instance in your arm there isn't enough depth for the bullet to fragment, so it would leave a nice 5.56mm hole there, but in your fat ass it would tear you up

[RogueLeader]

Yes, a realistic damage model is planned. But even with that too many hits to the leg would probably put you in shock.

[CoffeyCan]

The femoral artery running through your upper leg is to my knowledge the largest artery in your body. If its ruptured you have a very good chance of dying from blood loss very quickly. One of the Rangers killed in Somalia bled to death from this when they were alamo'ed for the night. Its not an instant kill, but its sure not getting shot in the foot.
CC

[LifesBane[4C]]

Who's the bastage that told me they ricochet?

[LordKhaine]

Originally posted by CoffeyCan
The femoral artery running through your upper leg is to my knowledge the largest artery in your body. If its ruptured you have a very good chance of dying from blood loss very quickly. One of the Rangers killed in Somalia bled to death from this when they were alamo'ed for the night. Its not an instant kill, but its sure not getting shot in the foot.
CC

3rd biggest at a guess actually, you have the aorta, and the artery in the Liver, those 2 are bigger. Just remember that too many hit locations can have a bad performance hit.

[Dr.Dase]

Tupac sure as hell didn't get up and whipped up a Glock and started charging around gunning. A shot to the foot will most probably put you out of combat effectiveness, because you would probably not be able to walk, and the shattered bones (there's a LOT of bones to shatter in your feet) would hurt like hell, and you would probably not be capable of coherent thought or action.

Most bullet wounds don't kill instantly, but death comes later due to shock and bleeding. Even if you survive, you would be downed, incapacitaded, knocked out etc. and thus incapable of combat.

[DredDamo]

If SoF can do it with the Q3 engine, I figure INF can do it with the UT one

[Lolo Konijn]

Just for information:
SoF has actually an upgraded Q2 engine (so I've heard)

So if Q2 (action quake has 3 regions head/body/legs) can do it...

[Mason]

First of all, how can you tell if someone has been shot in the foot? ..by viewing others being shot after you die? I don't think it happens enough to warrant an immediate change or 'fix'. Most people aim for 'center mass' or the head, if the shot hits the lower extremities it is probably a mistake. In any event, if enough bamage was done to the foot, you wouldn't really be running anywhere and would be preoccupied with stopping the bloodloss..the 'round' would be over by the time you finish dressing your wound. The same factors apply for the hand. Is someone out there purposely shooting people in the hands and feet and then laughing and taunting them? I just don't see it as a huge issue.


LK, the femoral artery might not be the biggest(i thought it was), but I DO know that if it is severed, you will bleed out rapidly and it's next to impossible to stop the bleeding by yourself due to how deep it is in the leg and all the musculature surrounding it.

[billlee]

Originally posted by The_Fur
...those damn Americans don't run so fast with a couple 5.45mm rounds in their legs

AKMSU: "The cure for the 'Running Dogs of Capitalism'"

Originally posted by BrownCow
Just out of curiousity, in the long run is the inf team planning on doing anything so people can't "shoot your feet to death"?

There is no feet. The player/bot target model is composed of two cylinders each with a vertical axis on top of one another. The upper one is the more-vulnerable Head and the larger lower one is the Body. At some stage in the future, the prone model will change to consist of the same two cylinders oriented with their central axis parallel to the ground. That is all, there is no feet, there is no legs, there is no chest, thorax, buttocks, groin, arms or hands: there is only the Body cylinder model. Its a characteristic of the design decisions made by the INF team and is a reasonable decision (IMHO) based on performance considerations for the range of machines that will be running INF. As time goes by and more detailed models are possible, both with future engines and CPU/video card speed improvements, then I'm sure the INF team will make changes to their model to make use of these improvements.

Thirty years ago showing the actual damage caused in combat by bullets and shell fragments would have been considered obscene. As a result, so many war movies depict quick, sanitised deaths of the characters for this reason, as well as being unable to simulate it even if they had wanted to. The advent of cheap computer graphics and improved special effects, as well as changing attitudes to viewing 'gore' has meant that you are starting to see more accurate depictions of damage to the human body in movies for entertainment. Consider Saving Private Ryan which attempts to show the brutal nature of an assault in its first thirty minutes. Real battles are injuries are messy and brutal and not anything you're likely to see an Arnold Schwartznegger movie.

So let's look at what happens if you get shot in the arm or leg.

If you are shot in the arm/leg, then you might be lucky and still able to fight on after more than one 'flesh' wound. You might also be unlucky and have a bullet hit the bone in your upper arm and almost take it off when the bullet disintegrates, your humerus disintegrate under the impact, your nerves, tendons, veins, arteries, muscle and skin are ripped off the back of the arm by bullet or bone fragments and you are left with an arm hanging by the remaining skin and muscle. Strictly speaking you aren't dead, but you will almost certainly be out of the fight from shock or pain.

http://www.palestinercs.org/bullet_i...pes_&_care.htm

Destabilization causes retardation- the5.45mm bullet of AK 47, the latest and the most effective rifle what is particular about this bullet is the air filled space in its nose. On hitting the target, the heavy –lead atimony core is pushed forwards; the bullet becomes very instable and starts rotating inside the wound track. In a thigh hit this causes a maximum cavitation close to the femur, the main nerves and vessels. Similar to it, is 5.56-m bullet of M16 rifle.
Fragmentation causes retardation- hitting bone, most bullets become deformed or broken into fragments, finding the main cavitation on the outlet side of the fracture. Also, bone fragments are accelerated into the tissue as secondary projectiles, adding to the cavitation. Energy shock waves may also travel the bone, into structure close to the bone, and remote organs may be damaged.

How do the tissues tolerate cavitation?
Every tissue has its particular features that also affect the wound track:
Skin is elastic and absorbs the cavitation well. It’s stretched and returns to normal without much necrosis.
The subcutaneous fatty tissue is elastic and has poor blood supply cavitation causes extensive necrosis due to small vessel destruction.
Muscle tissue is ever less elastic and will not absorb the cavitation, muscle cells are directly crushed by the pressure wave.
Also minor vessels are torn causing secondary hypoxia and muscle cell death.
Bone is not elastic at all “except children”. Compound fractures are common even if the projectile does not hit the bone directly. And the energy wave may travel along the bone and cause extensive necrosis in the muscle bellies and compartments close to the bone.

So it all sounds pretty serious if you are unlucky to be hit in the bone in the arm or leg. How often are you likely to be injured in the arm or leg in a battle? Doing some research on the Internet yields the following information.

http://www.bosnet.org/archive/bosnet.../msg00183.html. Note the quoted 'normal' percentage of wounded with injuries to extremities. Note that some of these would have multiple injuries to extremities and body/head.

Injuries to extremities, which has averaged 60-70% in contemporary conflicts amounts to 73% in Sarajevo.

http://salata.mef.hr/CMJ/3802/3802-8.htm contains statistics on the injured treated in a Croatian hospital 1991-1995. Note that these statistics on injuries to extremities are almost certainly biased since many victims of fatal trunk, neck and head injuries would not make it to the hospital to be included as part of these statistics.

The prevalence of the war wounds of the extremities have been reported to range between 71-73%. We encountered 88.3% of such wounds, with the domination of injuries caused by the explosive devices. There was about 61.1% of the wounds of the lower extremities, and 27.2% of the upper extremities. The wounds were mostly complex with the associated injuries of bones, joints, tendons, blood vessel and nerves, and in 73.4% of the cases they were classified as type III injuries(Adequate soft-tissue coverage of a fractured bone despite extensive soft-tissue laceration, or high-energy trauma irrespective of the size of the wound, or extensive soft tissue loss with periosteal stripping and bone exposure: usually associated with massive contamination, or open fracture associated with arterial injury requiring repair.)

Trauma in the Afghan guerrilla war: effects of lack of access to care.
...
The
ratio of critical-area wounds (trunk, head and neck)/extremity wounds was low (0.07) compared with most other wars (about 0.50), indicating that the most seriously injured patients died before treatment was obtained.

Of course you could be lucky: (Note that the AKMSU and AK47 terminal ballistics are different.)
http://rkba.org/research/suter/trask.rebuttal

AK47 wounds more closely approximate handgun injuries with non-expanding bullets.
...
Reports from Vietnam confirmed the often minimal wounds caused by AK-47 bullets: "Uncomplicated perforating soft-tissue wounds were the most common bullet wounds of the extremities; They showed small entry and exit wounds and a clean soft tissue track with little or no devitalization of tissue. They usually healed if left alone."

So, the bottom line seems to be that about 50% of wounded people are wounded in the arms or legs, but that these are much more survivable than wounds to the body or head if immediate medical aid is not available. This figure of 50% may be of use to the INF team in designing future versions.

Bill Lee
PS: Largest arteries: Aorta, then Pulmonary, although the liver, spleen and skin are reservoirs for about 20% of our body's blood. The femoral artery carries 300-900ml of blood per minute (http://www.ecr.org/T/ECR97/sciprg/abs/9700314o.htm). As you can imagine, you could lose a lot of blood from a damaged femoral artery very quickly.

[LordKhaine]

Originally posted by Mason
LK, the femoral artery might not be the biggest(i thought it was), but I DO know that if it is severed, you will bleed out rapidly and it's next to impossible to stop the bleeding by yourself due to how deep it is in the leg and all the musculature surrounding it.

It may be the longest, but the aorta is a lot wider and more vital, and the liver is basicly a huge store of blood. And as you rightly mentioned, a bullet thro the femoral artery is indeed brown trouser time . A hit to any major artery such as these 3 will take you out of action within a very short space of time. You wouldnt be able to do much more than call for help and drag yourself a few metres to some cover.

The trouble is to accurately pictate the the human body you would need thousands of hit locations, which clearly isnt possible. So you need to make some sacrifices somewhere. Damage from legs should be much less, and in reality it should force you to either limp along, or more likely, crawl along. Trouble is, as Shakken mentioned in another post, slowing people down by that much causes major gameplay problems in TDM. Its a hard call to make.

[The_Fur]

Well i am looking foreward to the team trying, as said before... it's in OFP and i'm loving it.

[Tommy Atkins]

None too sure on this, but I seem to remember hearing that the impact of a bullet sets up a shockwave through the body's fluid systems (blood lymph and err, something else) which can trigger heart attacks- not sure how something to do with pressure differentials- look, it was a long time ago, OK? In addition, this shockwave can rupture small, vulnerable and yet very important blood vessels. Example- the ones that keep your CNS happy.

NB- this is not the same as "going into shock" through loss of fluid- that's got something to do with blood pressure going loopy. Damn, I wish I'd payed more attention in class .

Can anyone confirm or deny (no, not the standard "you're full of sht Tommy answer ) this?

PS- LK, eeeewwww, you've been doing some serious gorehounding. Glad I didn't have to...

[LordKhaine]

I don't speak from experience or anything, but I did Biology at college, and its not hard to guess

[Dr.Dase]

You actually don't need all that many hit locations, since you usually have no idea EXACTLY where you hit anyway. You might know you hit the leg, but not if you struck the bone or the meat only. This could be done with a simple (or complicated perhaps ) variable, like 25% chance of bones hit, then another ratio for the chance of breaking the bone, ie, a 9mm round att 200 metres might not break the bone, but a 7.62mm NATO would crush it. Same goes for arms, head and torso. You only need about, say 9 hit locations= 2 lower legs, 2 upper legs (thighs), lower torso, upper torso, head and 2 arms. Then if hit in upper torso, a similar variable to the leg one can be used, with chances to hit bone or vital organs according so size and liability to damage from shockwave effects.

[LordKhaine]

I would have thought a head hit will almost always take the enemy out of action, thats unless the bullet was stoped by a helmet