Subdividing faces for textures and complex brushes

ether · 14th Mar 2000, 04:32 PM

Is there a way to subdivide a brush face so i can apply differnent textures in different parts of the face, or do i have to build the object out of multiple brushes?

While on this subject, are there any performance or size advantages to creating complex objects and then intersecting them with a large cube brush to create a single complex brush. I know it makes moving more convenient, but does it buy me anything else?

------------------
--ether
http://www.remixradio.com/ut/

Wanderer · 15th Mar 2000, 02:34 AM

Ether:
1) Short of adding a brush plush with that wall, not gonna happen.

2) Ari's already said it [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif[/img]

3) Basically cuts are the number of polys that are made on a given surface. Switch the 3D View's Mode=>Zone/Portal (I like this compared to the other one) and select a surface. Ever poly (which are slightly different shaded shapes on a surface) on that surface is a cut. Intersecting picks up on these though.

Aphex:
The reason for the "odd" cuts is because at all times the Unreal engine does it's best to occlude unseen polys. These additional cuts are the result of that. That's why you often don't see combination inside/outside maps, because on the inside fewer outdoor polys are seen and the BSP will cut the outside polys (like through windows for instance) and it will do that to any surface. It then proceeds to do the same for the outdoor looking inside.

Strange but they're always clever ways to work around such things.

Aphex · 15th Mar 2000, 02:55 AM

Q1: You can add a sheet on top of the face (>= 1 grid unit above) to put another texture on it.

Q2: <me listens interestedly [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/wink.gif[/img]>

Aridale N. Belmont · 15th Mar 2000, 10:57 AM

The best advantage I can see to making complex brushs into one brush is
1. It will have fewer faces as one brush cause the single builder brush only sticks to the outside of the brush in question. So it doesnt include in the new brush any of the faces hidden from view in the smaller brushes of the complex one.
2. Convience. Convience. Convience. Its much easier to make something once then make it into a single textured brush and then use it over and over again if its needed.

Thats the best reasons I can come up with off the top of my head for the second question. As for the first you can use sheets but its a lil easier on the editor(you) if you build like a 64x64x8 cube or whatever size you need just make the smallest size the part that will actually be in the surface. Then aubtract it from the actual surface you want it to appear in and it will segment the wall in the shape of the thing you put there and it will be solid unlike sheet decorations. You CAN make it easier on the engine by making the brushes semisolid so they dont cut into the BSP tree. Fewer cuts = faster display of areas. Hope this helps

Ari

ether · 15th Mar 2000, 11:35 AM

Ah, the heart of the matter, cuts and BSP trees. Any good reference for understanding how still all works?

Or for the simple answer, is a cut only when brushes overlap to create cuts dynamically? I.e. if you carve a hole into a block, you really have the block plus a negative block. Is that a cut? And if so, if you intersect this structure to build a single brush, would you then have something without any cuts?

Aphex · 15th Mar 2000, 11:51 AM

You'll always have a BSP cut for a subtraction as far as I can see. You can have semisolid/non-solid additions that don't cause BSP cuts. But UnrealEd insists on putting loads of cuts in strange places (ie flat brushes with nothing touching/intersecting/subtracted from) on my map, causing it to slow down nicely [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/frown.gif[/img]

Wanderer · 16th Mar 2000, 02:31 AM

I'll see what I can do. Give me a couple days to get it and run through it. Generally map reviewing isn't a high priority with me.

Aphex · 16th Mar 2000, 03:51 AM

Hmm Wanderer, my map is at http://www.belldom.demon.co.uk/files...arriorBeta.zip
It's indoor & outdoor and is quite slow due to loads of outside cuts [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/frown.gif[/img]
Any chance you can take a look and work out one of these clever ideas? [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/wink.gif[/img]

Aphex · 16th Mar 2000, 03:44 PM

Sure thing - cheers!
Any ideas will be a help [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/wink.gif[/img]

Aphex · 17th Mar 2000, 03:22 AM

BTW Wanderer, my map is an almost exact mirror, but I noticed that being around the red base is 5-10 fps *faster* than the blue base!!!!
(I built the blue base, then duplicated it across to the red side).
WTF has happened here? Has the duplication reduced some complexity or something?

Wanderer · 17th Mar 2000, 05:51 PM

Not sure, but I'm gonna bend some of the typical zoning rules and rezone a little around here and see what happens.

Aphex · 21st Mar 2000, 04:12 AM

Hmmm - I had a look last night - I see what you did, but I thought you shouldn't throw in huge portals, and they are *huge* portals!
What was the idea behind them? Partition off courtyard/wall-top complexity?
Seemed about the same speed on my system though [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/frown.gif[/img]

I have managed to speed it up somewhat by removing the water from the skybox.

Thanks for looking at it!

Wanderer · 21st Mar 2000, 01:55 PM

Yeah, like I said, I was gonna bend some of the rules. Guess it didn't work (sometimes that's actually cured BSP holes). Well, nothing comes to mind that can be done really.

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14th Mar 2000, 04:32 PM	#1
ether Registered User Join Date: Feb. 1st, 2000 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 39	Is there a way to subdivide a brush face so i can apply differnent textures in different parts of the face, or do i have to build the object out of multiple brushes? While on this subject, are there any performance or size advantages to creating complex objects and then intersecting them with a large cube brush to create a single complex brush. I know it makes moving more convenient, but does it buy me anything else? ------------------ --ether http://www.remixradio.com/ut/

15th Mar 2000, 02:34 AM	#2
Wanderer Registered User Join Date: Jul. 7th, 2000 Posts: 1,334	Ether: 1) Short of adding a brush plush with that wall, not gonna happen. 2) Ari's already said it [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif[/img] 3) Basically cuts are the number of polys that are made on a given surface. Switch the 3D View's Mode=>Zone/Portal (I like this compared to the other one) and select a surface. Ever poly (which are slightly different shaded shapes on a surface) on that surface is a cut. Intersecting picks up on these though. Aphex: The reason for the "odd" cuts is because at all times the Unreal engine does it's best to occlude unseen polys. These additional cuts are the result of that. That's why you often don't see combination inside/outside maps, because on the inside fewer outdoor polys are seen and the BSP will cut the outside polys (like through windows for instance) and it will do that to any surface. It then proceeds to do the same for the outdoor looking inside. Strange but they're always clever ways to work around such things.

15th Mar 2000, 02:55 AM	#3
Aphex Registered User Join Date: Jan. 31st, 2000 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 563	Q1: You can add a sheet on top of the face (>= 1 grid unit above) to put another texture on it. Q2: <me listens interestedly [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/wink.gif[/img]>

15th Mar 2000, 10:57 AM	#4
Aridale N. Belmont Registered User Join Date: Nov. 9th, 1999 Posts: 87	The best advantage I can see to making complex brushs into one brush is 1. It will have fewer faces as one brush cause the single builder brush only sticks to the outside of the brush in question. So it doesnt include in the new brush any of the faces hidden from view in the smaller brushes of the complex one. 2. Convience. Convience. Convience. Its much easier to make something once then make it into a single textured brush and then use it over and over again if its needed. Thats the best reasons I can come up with off the top of my head for the second question. As for the first you can use sheets but its a lil easier on the editor(you) if you build like a 64x64x8 cube or whatever size you need just make the smallest size the part that will actually be in the surface. Then aubtract it from the actual surface you want it to appear in and it will segment the wall in the shape of the thing you put there and it will be solid unlike sheet decorations. You CAN make it easier on the engine by making the brushes semisolid so they dont cut into the BSP tree. Fewer cuts = faster display of areas. Hope this helps Ari

15th Mar 2000, 11:35 AM	#5
ether Registered User Join Date: Feb. 1st, 2000 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 39	Ah, the heart of the matter, cuts and BSP trees. Any good reference for understanding how still all works? Or for the simple answer, is a cut only when brushes overlap to create cuts dynamically? I.e. if you carve a hole into a block, you really have the block plus a negative block. Is that a cut? And if so, if you intersect this structure to build a single brush, would you then have something without any cuts?

15th Mar 2000, 11:51 AM	#6
Aphex Registered User Join Date: Jan. 31st, 2000 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 563	You'll always have a BSP cut for a subtraction as far as I can see. You can have semisolid/non-solid additions that don't cause BSP cuts. But UnrealEd insists on putting loads of cuts in strange places (ie flat brushes with nothing touching/intersecting/subtracted from) on my map, causing it to slow down nicely [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/frown.gif[/img]

16th Mar 2000, 02:31 AM	#7
Wanderer Registered User Join Date: Jul. 7th, 2000 Posts: 1,334	I'll see what I can do. Give me a couple days to get it and run through it. Generally map reviewing isn't a high priority with me.

16th Mar 2000, 03:51 AM	#8
Aphex Registered User Join Date: Jan. 31st, 2000 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 563	Hmm Wanderer, my map is at http://www.belldom.demon.co.uk/files...arriorBeta.zip It's indoor & outdoor and is quite slow due to loads of outside cuts [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/frown.gif[/img] Any chance you can take a look and work out one of these clever ideas? [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/wink.gif[/img]

16th Mar 2000, 03:44 PM	#9
Aphex Registered User Join Date: Jan. 31st, 2000 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 563	Sure thing - cheers! Any ideas will be a help [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/wink.gif[/img]

17th Mar 2000, 03:22 AM	#10
Aphex Registered User Join Date: Jan. 31st, 2000 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 563	BTW Wanderer, my map is an almost exact mirror, but I noticed that being around the red base is 5-10 fps faster than the blue base!!!! (I built the blue base, then duplicated it across to the red side). WTF has happened here? Has the duplication reduced some complexity or something?

17th Mar 2000, 05:51 PM	#11
Wanderer Registered User Join Date: Jul. 7th, 2000 Posts: 1,334	Not sure, but I'm gonna bend some of the typical zoning rules and rezone a little around here and see what happens.

21st Mar 2000, 04:12 AM	#12
Aphex Registered User Join Date: Jan. 31st, 2000 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 563	Hmmm - I had a look last night - I see what you did, but I thought you shouldn't throw in huge portals, and they are huge portals! What was the idea behind them? Partition off courtyard/wall-top complexity? Seemed about the same speed on my system though [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/frown.gif[/img] I have managed to speed it up somewhat by removing the water from the skybox. Thanks for looking at it!

21st Mar 2000, 01:55 PM	#13
Wanderer Registered User Join Date: Jul. 7th, 2000 Posts: 1,334	Yeah, like I said, I was gonna bend some of the rules. Guess it didn't work (sometimes that's actually cured BSP holes). Well, nothing comes to mind that can be done really.