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View Poll Results: Is it acceptable to break most mods to ensure a non-cheating multiplay enviorment?
Yes 25 67.57%
No 12 32.43%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 5th Mar 2001, 01:21 AM   #1
usaar33
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Some of you may be aware of the recent release of a new aimbot that can beat even CSHP4a. Due to the way this bot works, it cannot be dealt with the same way CSHP has worked in the past. Ezteams can deal with its aimbot code, yet not its shieldbelt timer. A whole class of cheats exists that neither protection can catch using unrealscript.

The only way to truly defeat this cheat's timing compatibilties, as well as HUD cheats and other non-aiming related cheats is to force every client to download a DLL. A DLL cannot be downloaded through the normal UT netcode and consequently would need to be downloaded seperately from a web site. Without downloading it, you could not play on servers running this protection. At initial release, this dll will simply verify a true console. It will destroy all console based cheats.
For the record, Sin will ensure that this DLL will be ported to all other platforms, so Linux and Mac users need not worry.
Unfortunately, one day cheats may bypass this protection. How much time and if it will is unknown. Honestly, based on the apparent skill of cheat writers (the ones who RELEASE their hacks), this type of hack is a distant possibility.
But if one ever is released, the DLL would scan each client's current game and check for ANY FOREIGN OBJECTS. This is not just rogue actors. At the worse (not very likely), NO CLIENT-SIDE MOD OF ANY KIND WOULD CONTINUE TO WORK. A list follows of mods immediately broken which may or may not work on the current CSHP:
-decalstay
-nosmoke
-oldskool amp'd
-OSX background changer
-Simple items
-Spectating fix
-utamp
-UTwinamp
-Probably the most important (again assuming the worse, not likely to occur however): ANY MOD WHICH HAS ITS OWN UBROWSER TAB. It would only be caught if the browser is opened, for the record. This means hudreds of mods could get nuked. Some may be preserved, I do not honestly know. This includes so many mods (chaos, feba, dominator, Tac ops, RA, etc., etc.). The authors would probably be forced to upgrade so CSHP can verify. (I really do not have the specifics). Sin has told me he will go as far as breaking EVERYTHING EXCEPT FILES FOUND IN UT GOTY, to preserve a non-cheating enviorment. Again, I must stress this is a worse-case scenario. THIS PROBABLY AND HOPEFULLY WILL NEVER OCCUR.
With a security level this high, loading a mod's configuration window, selecting a custom player class in the player select might also count as a cheat (while in a multiplayer game that is). Clients may be effectively forced to keep a vanilla UT.
Again at the current time, mods will not be hurt. Keep that it mind. Yet one day a cheat MAY be released, which will force this to happen.
If the question is not apparent yet, I'll word it in one sentence. In the case of a powerful cheat being released, can mods be sacrificed to preserve multiplay?

Remember though what would happen if mods were not broken (and a cheat was that powerful)
You would forfeit the ability to play in a non-cheating environment. all servers you play on, youd never know if the other guy was cheating. youd never be able to trust ngstats. if you were good, people would accuse you of cheating."


Last edited by usaar33; 5th Mar 2001 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 01:41 AM   #2
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Quoting the whole message, because usaar's gone and edited the original:
Quote:
Originally posted by usaar33
Some of you may be aware of the recent release of a new aimbot that can beat even CSHP4a. Due to the way this bot works, it cannot be dealt with the same way CSHP has worked in the past. Ezteams can deal with its aimbot code, yet not its shieldbelt timer. A whole class of cheats exists that neither protection can catch using unrealscript.

The only way to truly defeat this cheat's timing compatibilties, as well as HUD cheats and other non-aiming related cheats is to force every client to download a DLL. A DLL cannot be downloaded through the normal UT netcode and consequently would need to be downloaded seperately from a web site. Without downloading it, you could not play on servers running this protection. The DLL (written in C++) would scan each client's current game and check for ANY FOREIGN OBJECTS. This is not just rogue actors. NO CLIENT-SIDE MOD OF ANY KIND WOULD CONTINUE TO WORK. A list follows of mods immediately broken which may or may not work on the current CSHP:
-decalstay
-nosmoke
-oldskool amp'd
-OSX background changer
-Simple items
-Spectating fix
-utamp
-UTwinamp
-Probably the most important: ANY MOD WHICH HAS ITS OWN UBROWSER TAB. It would only be caught if the browser is opened, for the record. This means hudreds of mods could get nuked. Some may be preserved, I do not honestly know. This includes so many mods (chaos, feba, dominator, Tac ops, RA, etc., etc.). The authors would probably be forced to upgrade so CSHP can verify. (I really do not have the specifics). Sin has told me he will go as far as breaking EVERYTHING EXCEPT FILES FOUND IN UT GOTY.
Furhtermore, loading a mod's configuration window, selecting a custom player class in the player select might also count as a cheat (while in a multiplayer game that is). Clients may be effectively forced to keep a vanilla UT.
Note that an extreme that great will probably not happen immediately. (will initially only However, eventually some individual may end up placing a cheat in a config screen, in which this would be forced to occur.

If the question is not apparent yet, I'll word it in one sentence. Is it mods or multiplayer?

Again, most likely, mods will not be hurt. Keep that it mind. Yet one day a cheat may be released, which will force this to happen.

BTW, no matter what users will eventually forced to download something to play on servers. That part is sealed.
I'm not a coder, but I can say a few things about this.
1) usaar33 is out to get both Dr Sin and CSHP. He continually harrasses Sin in #UnrealScript, for a reason unknown to us.
2) I'm 99% sure that CSHP won't break "Most Mods" as usaar33 has said. I could be wrong, but "most" is quite extreme, and its my understanding only client side mods or parts of mods will be affected.
3) Ezteams is usaar33's own mod. PLUG PLUG PLUG! It stops aimbots based on sudden turns. So theoretically, if a player makes a few really good shots, he could be detected as a cheater...its almost as bad as the lamers who accuse them. Also, someone could easily code an aimbot which just has a delayed turn...
4) Mods and CSHP are rarely used together now -- so as long as a server doesn't have CSHP + mods, any mods on it will work just fine. Also, mods will work clientside just fine...
5) Users download a lot to play UT. Bonus Pack, Maps, Mods, (yes, the beloved mods which you refer to...have to be downloaded!!), etc..

I'll wait for Mongo or Sin to comment on the rest, as its beyond my area.

My vote: Cheat Free Multiplayer.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 01:51 AM   #3
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Yes, Stallion that is why I changed my post.
Quote:
I'm not a coder, but I can say a few things about this.
1) usaar33 is out to get both Dr Sin and CSHP. He continually harrasses Sin in #UnrealScript, for a reason unknown to us.
I wouldn't say I'm out to get him.
Quote:
2) I'm 99% sure that CSHP won't break "Most Mods" as usaar33 has said. I could be wrong, but "most" is quite extreme, and its my understanding only client side mods or parts of mods will be affected.
Correct, it probably never will.
Quote:
3) Ezteams is usaar33's own mod. PLUG PLUG PLUG! It stops aimbots based on sudden turns. So theoretically, if a player makes a few really good shots, he could be detected as a cheater...its almost as bad as the lamers who accuse them. Also, someone could easily code an aimbot which just has a delayed turn...
It's Darkbyte's. and no, Stallion that is not how it works. It is near the point of no false detection.
Quote:
4) Mods and CSHP are rarely used together now -- so as long as a server doesn't have CSHP + mods, any mods on it will work just fine. Also, mods will work clientside just fine...
Again, at current release this is true.
Quote:
5) Users download a lot to play UT. Bonus Pack, Maps, Mods, (yes, the beloved mods which you refer to...have to be downloaded!!), etc..
Nowhere did I say I opposed this.

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Old 5th Mar 2001, 04:27 AM   #4
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Although I applaud the effort Usaar, I won't download or install a .dll from anybody exepted trusted and certified entities (even if it is from Sin). Especially one that can cause chaos within the community. Its bad enough the CSHP misinterprets honest players as cheaters (yes, it due to personalized setups per server), but to have one that labels me or another as a cheater because I'm running a or installed a mod...no.

This .dll is an attempt to change the game and the way it supports mod makers and multiplayer games. I don't think Epic will think to kindly about having something that could potentially limit the mod community and probably hurt UT more than it will help. And anticheats should be supporting mods, not the other way around.

It's bad enough UT servers don't support mods as they should. Now you (generally speaking) want to create a .dll that will limit or seal the death warrant for mods.

You stated we may need to keep a "Vanilla" version to ensure we aren't unjustly labeled as cheaters due to mods or other "Foreign objects". If I wanted that, I would buy a PS2 version of UT.

Again, I applaud the effort, but this .dll will cause more harm than good. It's a massive withhunt waiting to happen. We are smart and know how to handle this, but we aren't the whole community. Cheaters are bad, but being unjustly labeled as a cheater is worse. Seek another less intrusive method.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 05:38 AM   #5
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Unless work was done in advance to ensure that mods could be updated easily and universally, I lean towards keeping compatability. My concern is this: when I connect to a server with CSHP now, it autodownloads the mutator to me. Would I then be subjected to autodownloads that broke my mods without my consent? How does that worK?

I have to say, that I'm a little suspicious now, usaar33. Why not be more forthcoming about your problem with DrSin? I'm afraid this appears to color your intentions. Help me out here.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 05:59 AM   #6
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Ugh ... this is really gettin out of hands.

On free-for-all servers I'd say: Requiring clients to install a dll is too much. Also breaking all client side mods is too much. As long as this aimbot isn't widely spread, this would be over-done.

Competitive play and leagues, now that's a different story. Here cheating is a serious issue and every single cheaters must be found and kicked. From league players you can expect that they install a DLL and you can also expect that they have a "clean" version of their UT.ini and user.ini, with no client side mods or even any mods ... just pure vanilla UT. This doesn't mean they can't play mods any more. They would only have to have two versions of their INIs; one for normal play and one for league matches.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 06:55 AM   #7
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Unhappy I'm indifferent...

I don't use, nor am interested in any client side mods, so that doesn't really affect me.

I do use custom built filters, ubrowser tabs, and loss of those would bother me.

I like the idea of not having to worry about cheaters, but I don't have a big prob w/ it now. I think I run into them some times, but it usually doesn't stop me from winning...

I do know if no measure were taken, it would be a big prob, but now it's more sparingly then not so...
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 08:46 AM   #8
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These aimbots are prolly more widespread than most of us think.

Quote:
It stops aimbots based on sudden turns
IF this is true which I can't really make out from usaar's reply than a lot of ppl using the microsoft or any other optical mouse could be on trouble, since these sometimes go crazy and spin round all over the place. And from what I hear lots of ppl use optical mice.

AS for league play, I intentionally don't download any mods any more because of cshp the only one I have installed is the Eavy one I need for the league, my HD space is limited and I don't wanna install another 500 megs or so I think there is a way round this by having a special ut.ini like

Quote:
Make another folder under your UT folder called "System2" and copy all the files from the "system" folder to it.
Now open your "UNREALTOURNAMENT.ini" file in the 'system2' folder.
Find the [Core.System] section and edit the line "Paths=../System/*.u" so it now reads "Paths=../System2/*.u". Close it and save changes.


System2 is the back up folder u don't perform the patch on.
Then create a shortcut to the unrealtournament.exe in system2 if you want so you can boot each version quickly
I really can't be bothered to go through all this just so i can play rocket arena a few times a month.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 01:23 PM   #9
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Unhappy Just my 0.02 cents

This rant really isn't correct in many of it's assumptions. Any DLL (and it's linux/mac counterparts) would simply offer up 2 additional abilities not available to Uscripts.

#1) it would offer the ability to perform a CRC type check on ANY package within the UT Directory structure. This includes .U's, .UTXs (to weed out skin cheats), etc.

#2) it would offer the ability to retrieve a listing of all packages currently loaded.

Neither of these 2 abilities in their own would break a mod any more than the current version of CSHP would.

What it does do, is allow for things like OldSkool to work within the protection system. The reason CSHP has to assume anything out of the ordinary is a hack is because currently there is no way to tell on it's own. Someone running an aimbot in the package OldSkool looks no different to uscript than the actual OldSkool mod.

I would no longer have to assume ACC is a hack (ACC is the admin console) because I could simply return the CRC for ACC and if it's correct, allow it.

Now I hate to break it to everyone, this IS where CSHP is going. If you want to stop cheaters, there is no other choice.

Sin has told me he will go as far as breaking EVERYTHING EXCEPT FILES FOUND IN UT GOTY, to preserve a non-cheating enviorment

This statement is 100% correct. But people need to understand something. You start with as big as circle as you can and pull in. If it ever gets to that point, the community is already screwed.

Quote:
Prophetus said:

I won't download or install a .dll from anybody exepted trusted and certified entities (even if it is from Sin).
Then in about a month, you will have no choice but to play on unprotected servers with bots and cheaters.

That's your choice to make.

However, like anything I do in terms of CSHP, Epic will have full access to the source and I'm sure they will be happy to verify it's ok to use.

Quote:
Hal said:
Unless work was done in advance to ensure that mods could be updated easily and universally, I lean towards keeping compatability. My concern is this: when I connect to a server with CSHP now, it autodownloads the mutator to me. Would I then be subjected to autodownloads that broke my mods without my consent? How does that worK?
This type of protection would not be auto-downloaded. My intentions was to create a system that could just be sent to the client. We are now at the very edge of what that type of system can support. If I'm to stop cheaters any more, the client will have to manually download something.

Quote:
Cleaner said:
On free-for-all servers I'd say: Requiring clients to install a dll is too much. Also breaking all client side mods is too much. As long as this aimbot isn't widely spread, this would be over-done.
Then aimbots and cheats win. There is no way to stop them without the ability to CRC a package. At some point the user will have to download something.

Also, DB's aimbot detection code isn't based on sudden turns. It's more intelligent than that. But it's not foolproof. This is the reason I never attempted mathematical detection in CSHP. It won't work in the end any better and is far more open to false detection.


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Old 5th Mar 2001, 02:09 PM   #10
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for me it's pretty simple. i have a favorites list of about two dozen servers and i play every day for at least an hour, have been for more than a year now.

aimbots I've seen? zero on the favorites list. saw one elsewhere.

this is at least in part due to cshp, I'm sure. however, to "break mods" for FFA games, no thanks. I personally don't care enough about pub games to go that far. one can always go the route of swineonline and start passwording your servers. An aimbot *could* get in then, sure, but christ the chances are small. that seems to be the easiest fix for the problem.

however, i would completely endorse this level of protection for clan games, where there is actually *something* at stake. the download though... could it forcibly make the client run only vanilla UT files while connected to the server? that seems like it would be the ultimate fix, so we could install whatever we wanted but at server XYZ it acts like we only have regular UT and the rest of th files "don't exist" while we're on that server. if the code for this sort of thing were small enough it could be made to download at every connection to ensure that it itself isn't cracked. again, on FFA downloads are an issue, but 56k'ers are few and far between in the clan scene.

just some half-assed ideas and thoughts.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 02:10 PM   #11
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I have no problem installing a dll so that servers can tell that I'm not cheating. That part is easy. I don't even know what a dll is, but I have no problem with putting something on my system so I can join a cheatfree server.

But if I have RA installed, then servers will think I am cheating? That part is hard.

Last night I joined a random server and it made me download all kinds of mods; Carry the flag, mapvote, and who knows what else. If this new system is in place, and I jump on a random server that puts mods like this in my system, then I jump on a CSHP5 (or whatever it will be called) server, will my dll tell the server I am cheating? How can I avoid that? Do I have to quickly hit F10 everytime I join a server and I see it is downloading a mod at me?

Most of this stuff is way above my head. Like miles and miles above my head. But I'm willing to work with Dr. Sin and do what I have to do to fight the aimbotters. It is just incredibly sad if the cost of this battle is that it will hurt the mod community.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 03:25 PM   #12
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Arrow I'll download the protection...

My only real worry it being accused of cheating for stupid packages like my custom ubrowser. Like I was saying before, I don't use any client side mods. If you are going post cheat info publicly etc... maybe what cheat they were using should be posted too....
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 04:46 PM   #13
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In order to let everyone properly discuss this issue, here is the definition of what a DLL is:
Quote:
Short for Dynamic Link Library, a library of executable functions or data that can be used by a Windows application . Typically, a DLL provides one or more particular functions and a program accesses the functions by creating either a static or dynamic link to the DLL. A static link remains constant during program execution while a dynamic link is created by the program as needed. DLLs can also contain just data. DLL files usually end with the extension .dll,.exe., drv, or .fon.

A DLL can be used by several applications at the same time. Some DLLs are provided with the Windows operating system and available for any Windows application. Other DLLs are written for a particular application and are loaded with the application.
Essentially, the primary reason that Proph won't install a .dll from a source he doesn't trust is that, much like a .exe or .com file, you cannot guarentee that it doesn't contain malicious code, as the source code to the binary .dll is unavailable to the end user for auditing.

Generally, the way around this is for the source offering the downloadable to sign with a pgp key, so that users can ensure that the downloaded binary is exactly as the original author created (ie, No trojans added). From this point, however, it becomes a matter of how well do you trust the original author.

So, now you have some idea of what people are arguing about.



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Old 5th Mar 2001, 08:18 PM   #14
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Thanks for responding, Dr.Sin.

I think you are saying that:

* I will have to download a .dll file from somewhere central like Fileplanet or something.

* It will probably break most mod compatability.

* Mutators that are server-side (which is most of them) will not be affected.

I guess what I don't understand is this:

* Will mod makers be able to easily update their mods, so that they are compatable ?



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Old 5th Mar 2001, 08:24 PM   #15
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That's precisely why I won't download and install the .dll. Yes, it may fight against cheaters, but it can contain some code that may do other things as well. Not that Dark, Usaar or Sin would do such a thing...but I just don't know them well. I have other reasons as well.

IMHO, this .dll will create a massive witchhunt and hurt the community. UT will become an elitist game, where newbies will be branded as cheaters simply because they had a mod or "Foreign" object in their UT and don't know how to fix it. They'll have to defend themselve to the point of exhaustion and decide UT (or U2 and UW) is not a worth the effort. Even vetran players will be subject to these accusations.

And DrSin, your assumption that all servers without your protection will be havens for cheaters is a fatalistic attitude. I play on several servers without CSHP and haven't experienced any cheaters. Funny, the cheaters I did see were on servers with CSHP.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 08:29 PM   #16
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I just wanted to throw my support behind Dr.Sin.

I'd rather have a cheat free environment than 1001 different ways to play UT.

Yes, that's my bias since all I play is standard CTF. Which, combined with DM, is the majority of the UT playing world (afaik).


"IMHO, this .dll will create a massive witchhunt and hurt the community. UT will become an elitist game, where newbies will be branded as cheaters simply because they had a mod or "Foreign" object in their UT and don't know how to fix it. They'll have to defend themselve to the point of exhaustion and decide UT (or U2 and UW) is not a worth the effort. Even vetran players will be subject to these accusations.

Thing is Proph, you're basing this on the assumption that it's going to label cheaters. As you already mentioned, that's due to idiot admins not following Dr.Sin's HIGHLY recommended setup instructions.

All it will do (likely) is keep cheaters off servers. If that turns anything into a witch hunt, I don't see how. All it does it keep servers clean. If you don't like it, you don't have to play on servers with it. Complete freedom of choice. I see nothing wrong with it.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 10:33 PM   #17
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* I will have to download a .dll file from somewhere central like Fileplanet or something. [/i][/quote]

It will be a UMOD just like most Unreal packages. And yes, it should only be downloaded from my personal site, or an authroized download site (like FilePlanet).

What you don't want to do is download it from anywhere.

* It will probably break most mod compatability.

No.. just the opposite. It will actually enhance compatibility because I can verify that ACC.ACC is really the admin console, not a cheat.

* Mutators that are server-side (which is most of them) will not be affected.

This is always correct.

* Will mod makers be able to easily update their mods, so that they are compatable ?

some mods will be harder to upgrade. For example Strike Force (which isn't CSHP compatibile right now) would have a harder time, but most mods would not.

And once everything is set, it's easy to work with say the SF team to fix stuff.

IMHO, this .dll will create a massive witchhunt and hurt the community. UT will become an elitist game, where newbies will be branded as cheaters simply because they had a mod or "Foreign" object in their UT and don't know how to fix it. They'll have to defend themselve to the point of exhaustion and decide UT (or U2 and UW) is not a worth the effort. Even vetran players will be subject to these accusations.

dll will not create a massive witch hunt. I don't know where USAAR33 got that idea. A DLL actually make detecting "harmless" mods much easier. Keep in mind I was only 1/2 watching the conversation in #Uscript that lead to this poll. CSHP right now detects foreign objects and just deactivates them. This works for 99.9% of the client-side mods. With a DLL, that extra 0.1% could be accounted for.

And DrSin, your assumption that all servers without your protection will be havens for cheaters is a fatalistic attitude. I play on several servers without CSHP and haven't experienced any cheaters. Funny, the cheaters I did see were on servers with CSHP.

Or you haven't realized it. People, there are FAR.. FAR worse things than an aimbot out there. I play almost exclusively on non-CSHP servers since the only CSHP servers nearby are insta-gib. I run in to a cheater at least 3 times a night. Some have aimbots.. some have the mysterious ability to track people through walls. It happens.

But consider this. If cheats are stamped out on CSHP servers.. where will they go?

Look there will always be a choice. I can only say that for the 1000 or so server admins who rely on CSHP, it going to go in this direction.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 10:37 PM   #18
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thank you

At this time, 75% of people care more about cheat-free multiplayer than mods. Strangely enough, its the minority speaking out the most :P

Quote:
Thanks for responding, Dr.Sin.

I think you are saying that:

* I will have to download a .dll file from somewhere central like Fileplanet or something.

* It will probably break most mod compatability.

* Mutators that are server-side (which is most of them) will not be affected.

I guess what I don't understand is this:

* Will mod makers be able to easily update their mods, so that they are compatable ?
The first and third statements are true. The second is not. Unless the need warrents, CSHP will not break mods.

Quote:
I have to say, that I'm a little suspicious now, usaar33. Why not be more forthcoming about your problem with DrSin? I'm afraid this appears to color your intentions. Help me out here.
I have nothing against Dr. Sin personally and I respect him and his work. I, however, do not like the way CSHP is turning. I also didn't like CSHP2's meathod. CSHP3 in simple was probably the best there is. But yes, I am biased against this new meathod.
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Also, DB's aimbot detection code isn't based on sudden turns. It's more intelligent than that. But it's not foolproof. This is the reason I never attempted mathematical detection in CSHP. It won't work in the end any better and is far more open to false detection.
Acutally, false detection is not an issue. In testing, we've only made it occur running through teleporters hundreds of times... And even that has pretty much been fixed. The reason I support ezteams meathod is because it IS mod friendly. If it says your a bot, your a bot. that simple. You are even allowed to have it installed. All that matters is use.
The only valid argument against its meathod is its LACK OF DETECTION OF OTHER CHEATS. Aimbots aren't the only cheats. But they appear to be the most common.
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This statement is 100% correct. But people need to understand something. You start with as big as circle as you can and pull in. If it ever gets to that point, the community is already screwed.
Unfortunately, it may come in time.
Protection has gotton more secure (though CSHP started out ultra-secure then loosened and is now tightening again):
The following is to show what levels needed to be at over time, not how CSHP has been:
At first, the user's console simply needed to be checked if it is a funbot or not. No mod breaks.
Yet, some people began renaming the bot and putting in new packages. Forces use of default console. Breaks all console mods.
Then the 1337 h4x0rs got smart and placed their bots inside Epic packages. Yet this could be stopped by the uscript equivilent of checking the existance of some variables only these bots possessed.
Yet, someone released an EXE that would make these vars random chars. All meathods of uscript checking are lossed. (except GUID, but I'd estimate that'd be figured out how to get around in a day or two). This forces checking of the package itself via file checks. (size?)

And that is where it is now. Yet everything evolves. In time, new ideas of putting bots may be found. Eventually, mod makers may be forced to register with Sin's database. this makes mod making require even more time. After all, someone has to check each mod for holes... The CRC checks may even be bypassed. Then what?
My point is that I believe we can only let security go so far. It hasn't ruined mods yet, and hopefully won't. Yet, based on what is happening now (look at amount of new CSHP versions), the cheat makers are picking up pace expodentially. The funny thing is that 99% of players don't have them. I've only seen an aimbot in use on a server at once. The other players were able to force him off... All these new things (including downloading DLL's, which happens to break UT version compatibility...), are to stop a small minority, at the expense of many others. Is it worth it?
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 10:42 PM   #19
alien8
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And to you, DrSin, I say thank you.
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Old 5th Mar 2001, 10:43 PM   #20
usaar33
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oh and Sin, one thing. The DLL is a perfect solution, as long as it is well known that it must be downloaded.
In other words, make sure that the news server for UT is updated with that news.
Or else what happens to the many newbies buying UT GOTY right now?
I've also seen people STILL not knowing what CSHP is. Its this lack of communication that creates a problem...
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