VCTF-HangingGardens[Pics][PC][PS3]

[The_Head]

Wow that looks fantastic.
So glad I clicked on this thread now! Will go check it out.

[_N_]

Originally Posted by xViperAKx

This is definitely a keeper, once pathing has been optimized, weighted and such. I really like the breakable glass, lets you know that it's believable. I also recall the switches and control panels looking like something out of the Beatles' Yellow Submarine. It's really cool to look at, and just as fun to play. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for the feedback! Yeah, those dynamics were quite a challenge to get working online (went through about 5 unique strategies before finally finding a solution that worked consitently client-side) but I think it was worth it for the unique gameplay strategies one can use with them (plus, it can just by so much fun to smash stuff!

Originally Posted by xViperAKx

Um, things I noticed about AI pathing: the Stealthbender gets hitched up on the garden rock very easily, set the path nodes that are centrally located in the main pathways to be "Primary Vehicle Paths" it should improve their movement greatly.

Hmm, actually, I set bPreferredVehiclePath=true for all the pathnodes on the bottom roadway areas. I'm not sure why the bots like to get them stuck on the concrete and stuff every now and then (I also can't fathom why they love driving them off the edge in the middle area there)... *Sigh* I suppose trying to understand the mind of a bot is like trying to understand madness itself .

Originally Posted by M.A.D.X.W

I liked how you used reverb volumes as well, very noticeable in the underneath area.
The bad thing about the under part, is that if you go down there with the flag theres no way back up, without hammer jumping up through the glass, and risk death or am i missing something?
I also really liked the breakable glass, cos as well as adding to the authenticity, its also gameplay affecting, and you can like shooot out the glass from under bots feat, which is cool.

Very nice map, its visually stunning and very fun too!

Thanks! We worked really hard on gameplay testing with numerous beta-testers to create a map that was quick to grasp, but when you look closer, has a great deal of depth and special places and routes to give you something new to try every time you play . And you're right: this is a VCTF map through-and-through (the breaking glass floors would be pointless if your enemy could just translocate back up to higher ground ). To avoid spammy vehicle combat in the middle, try taking vehicles up the stairs at the back of the middle station, or through the back of the fountain as different routes for getting into and out of the enemy base!

About the underside, yep! There's actually a way out! If you follow the structure it'll take you all the way to a jumppad that will put you well into the back of the enemy base (pretty close to the flag). It's ideal as a stealthy entrance point, but, you're right, it can also make a good flag escape route if you have jump boots and shoot out the glass above you in the middle there. Try it out!

Originally Posted by Numb51

oh, my gucking god dude. That is the best looking map i've seen yet. I've been learning max JUST for the purpose of making architecture like this. It's nice and clean, without alot of detail, and it still looks awesome.

Edit: I just played it, and wow man, good job. I wish there were some sort of tutorial on how to make architecture like this, I've been searching for days.

Andrew showed me his modelling techniques, but to be honest, he's just lightyears ahead of me in technique and skill level that I could barely follow his actions as he worked. Maybe I could get him to explain what modelling techniques he used to create such fantastic results .

Originally Posted by Cowlike

I agree about the energy sound, it's loud as to create a sort of overdrive effect when you're close enough. Still enjoyed the map a lot, really fun in addition of looking beautiful.

Hmm, that's really strange because none of our other testers had that issue, but a few people online here and there report it... Perhaps I'll tone down those sounds if it's a common problem, and release it in a future update (along with any other issues that crop up over the next couple of weeks).

Originally Posted by xViperAKx

if you decrease the minimum radii of the sounds near the flag, that would allow the user to know the source of the sound, just another ambient tip.

Ah yes, but for the flag room, we wanted to create the sense of the sound bouncing off the walls and "filling" the room. Special Thanks go to Dave Chan for helping us with good "sound" advice (pun quite intended ).

Originally Posted by _Lynx

Incredible architecture. That should be an MSUC entry.

Ha ha, although we had to pull some really late nights near the end, we just managed to get it in on time. Heh, I can tell you after that deadline passed, I slept for 12 hours straight to catch up .

[ACZ]

Hey everyone - thanks for all the great feedback on this map. A lot of time went into this project, and its comments like these that really make such effort worthwhile. Thank you!

A couple of people have been noting that the ambient audio is a bit loud; this is apparently a sound-card brand issue (the ambient audio is actually a little too quiet for my own laptop). We'll look into some adjustments for version 1.2, but we want to let things settle down before we crack this project open again!

It reminds me of Mass Effect actually.
http://masseffect.bioware.com/_commo...7_1280x760.jpg

And you can tell the influence is huge.

I am far more inspired by Mass Effect than Mirrors Edge (though the latter does basically focus on lighting, so I can understand the references here). That said, my main inspiration for this map was likely the same classic science fiction that inspired much of Mass Effect itself. I would also like to think that the architecture here is far looser and more organic than anything used in the Citadel.

Without that lighting application, it wouldn't ever have looked that good.

That was definitely the idea . I have access to a world class lighting tool, and have spent a lot of time publishing pureLIGHT content into Unreal. Can you can you blame me for making a very lighting-centric map?

Man I sooo wish we'd get lightmass and ambient occlusion by now...

Lightmass is quite interesting (I saw a demo of this at GDC) but I have to say I cannot see it being useful unless you have $50,000+ worth of CPU's to render with. (that said, I'd take Lightmass to Beast any day of the week). Where pureLIGHT is less integrated than something like Lightmass, I have to say it is FAR more usable to individual / small scale developers (I processed and baked the lighting for HangingGardens on a duel core laptop) - this does not necessarily speak to the average Unreal 3 licensee, but you can see how it would definitely apply to smaller studios or even individual mappers / modders. (we are also pricing pureLIGHT in line with this size of developer; I cannot speak to the final pricing at this time, but we're looking at somewhere less than $1000 with a potential student and indie license as well).

We have used pureLIGHT in house for over two years now, and are just now working through the process to get it out into the world as a product for the games industry. We just closed a major deal to this regard, and the details should be posted on the pureLIGHT site sometime in the next couple of weeks. In the meantime though, you can send any inquiries related to pureLIGHT through the contact page of the pureLIGHT website.

Edit: I just played it, and wow man, good job. I wish there were some sort of tutorial on how to make architecture like this, I've been searching for days.

Thanks. I'm not really sure how to communicate my "technique" with max for a tutorial - a lot of splines, patches, poly modeling. Really though, this architecture would be meaningless without the lighting - would you, and or anyone else, be be interested if I tried to show a "making of" video for HangingGardens (including modeling and lighting) for the pureLIGHT website? We have been bouncing around ideas for content to host up there.

Thanks again!

[Galivan]

Honestly amazing. I love the lighting is really good. And the architecture of the map leaves you with your mouth open. Good work!

[Numb51]

Originally Posted by ACZ

Thanks. I'm not really sure how to communicate my "technique" with max for a tutorial - a lot of splines, patches, poly modeling. Really though, this architecture would be meaningless without the lighting - would you, and or anyone else, be be interested if I tried to show a "making of" video for HangingGardens (including modeling and lighting) for the pureLIGHT website? We have been bouncing around ideas for content to host up there.

Thanks again!

Well, eventually in a couple of years everyone will be using pureLight, or some other kind of light engine, so even elegant/non-complex architecture will look amazing. I'd say if "The Making of VCTF-HangingGardens" wouldn't be too much of a burden, then it'd be great to learn from. However, this community is very talented, and I don't know if there are many newbie modelers out there like me. It's just very impressive to me because that's a similar art style that I think would be amazing for a competition map, and it's the sole purpose of me wanting to expand my knowledge of 3ds max.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll do great in MSUC because I don't think I've seen a single stock asset besides gameplay items. Both you and _N_ did a great job with the breaking glass and the forcefield buttons, and I believe it's implemented so well that even competitive gamers would welcome this map.

[Waffnuffly]

I'm sorta new to Max and would love to see a tutorial about how you did the modeling.

[ACZ]

Originally Posted by Numb51

Well, eventually in a couple of years everyone will be using pureLight, or some other kind of light engine, so even elegant/non-complex architecture will look amazing. I'd say if "The Making of VCTF-HangingGardens" wouldn't be too much of a burden, then it'd be great to learn from. However, this community is very talented, and I don't know if there are many newbie modelers out there like me. It's just very impressive to me because that's a similar art style that I think would be amazing for a competition map, and it's the sole purpose of me wanting to expand my knowledge of 3ds max.

I certainly hope everyone will be using pureLIGHT!

The best piece of advice I can offer, in regards to learning things like Max, is simply practice. Everyone was a newbie once, and the only difference between the newbies and the experts are the countless hours spent slaving away in some toolset or another.

I'll see what I can do in regards to a general "making of" video or tutorial - but until then, if you have any specific questions regarding this map, feel free to send me an e-mail or PM.

Thanks again!

A

[JohnDoe641]

Damn, this map looks ****ing incredible.

Those screen shots almost look like something I'd render in Vue. D:

[JohnDoe641]

Alright, I played around a bit in the map and it's quite fun but there's just two things that I found. If you stand in the way of respawning vertical glass, you get stuck in it until you break it. Shouldn't it wait until you move like a respawning car should?

Also, grenades don't seem to break the glass when they explode.

That's it.

[Ssswing`]

absolutly amazing!

[Toninux]

Wow! Amazing!
Those visuals should be reused for a total conversion mod...

[Interbellum]

Me wants DM version...

[aka_sova]

I liked you map so much, that i made a clip about it on youtube. You can find it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-ZPZFRtG8

Hope you like it

[Kantham]

Originally Posted by ACZ

Lightmass is quite interesting (I saw a demo of this at GDC) but I have to say I cannot see it being useful unless you have $50,000+ worth of CPU's to render with. (that said, I'd take Lightmass to Beast any day of the week). Where pureLIGHT is less integrated than something like Lightmass, I have to say it is FAR more usable to individual / small scale developers (I processed and baked the lighting for HangingGardens on a duel core laptop) - this does not necessarily speak to the average Unreal 3 licensee, but you can see how it would definitely apply to smaller studios or even individual mappers / modders. (we are also pricing pureLIGHT in line with this size of developer; I cannot speak to the final pricing at this time, but we're looking at somewhere less than $1000 with a potential student and indie license as well).

We have used pureLIGHT in house for over two years now, and are just now working through the process to get it out into the world as a product for the games industry. We just closed a major deal to this regard, and the details should be posted on the pureLIGHT site sometime in the next couple of weeks. In the meantime though, you can send any inquiries related to pureLIGHT through the contact page of the pureLIGHT website.

I am no extreme savy when it comes to hardware requirement with new lighting techniques demo's I've just heard about a few months ago, but I never figured lightmass would require 50K in hardware? D: I thought that new multi-lightning rendering technique helped to that. Looks like I thought wrong.

Good luck with your project. I kind of envy it as I am a fanatic of clean and white-ish maps (Ask everyone here D: ). Being a somewhat novice-experienced modeler myself, I think I could pull up something really interesting with such lighting system. I'd be curious to see it implemented for something else, like much darker surfaces and so on, or yet even better, Ambient Occlusion. But it definitively work on white.

How long was the rendering for Hanging Gardens on that dual core CPU?

[Numb51]

Do people use splines to make curved walls? The only tutorials I see using spline are to make some cylinder type of object.

I make curved walls via the bend modifier and a box, but it seems that its pretty limited on what I can do.

I'm just a total noob at modeling in Max, and I don't really know any community sites with good tutorials on game meshing.

[_N_]

Originally Posted by aka_sova

I liked you map so much, that i made a clip about it on youtube. You can find it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-ZPZFRtG8

Hope you like it

Holy smokes! Very nice video! I like how you showed off how the glass can be particularly useful for flag carriers, and total ROFL at the team-kill on that bot which fell through the glass there ! If I had a dime for every time I "accidentally" did that myself... Any chance of seeing an HD version? (I didn't see the option there anywhere...).

Thanks again! very nice!

[ACZ]

I am no extreme savy when it comes to hardware requirement with new lighting techniques demo's I've just heard about a few months ago, but I never figured lightmass would require 50K in hardware? D: I thought that new multi-lightning rendering technique helped to that. Looks like I thought wrong.

Good luck with your project. I kind of envy it as I am a fanatic of clean and white-ish maps (Ask everyone here D: ). Being a somewhat novice-experienced modeler myself, I think I could pull up something really interesting with such lighting system. I'd be curious to see it implemented for something else, like much darker surfaces and so on, or yet even better, Ambient Occlusion. But it definitively work on white.

How long was the rendering for Hanging Gardens on that dual core CPU?

Lightmass (and Beast for that matter) follow the "click and pray" model... meaning you set your lights, press the button, and hope that the result works out. The demo at GDC was impressive, but they had a LOT of fast quadcores working on the scene at once (looked like somewhere in the 30 core range, for a very small scene). That amount of processing power is very achievable in a large studio setting, but can you imagine setting up lighting where each lighting change takes 4-8 hours to see on your local hardware? (I've heard some comments from Beast users as well where a small change could result in a 20+ hour bake, just to see if the change even worked).

pureLIGHT is iterative, and can work on sub-selections and inviduals meshes So, for this scene (with all the expensive object light sources) a single pass is ~ 15 minutes on my laptop, but any change I wanted to preview would take about 1 or 2 minutes on its own. (during this time, you can actually see the bake happen, so if something is wrong you usually know in 30 seconds or less). This quick preview process lets me get the lighting perfect, at which point I setup a bake overnight. I cheated a bit by letting the final bake use a few of the quadcores at my office, but as _N_ can attest to the first stage lighting he saw was fairly resolved and that was a single night on just my laptop. Because of the iterative process, you can start and stop a bake several times; this scene could have easily been done over 3 nights on just this laptop, with usable results after the first session. (the ability to bake individual meshes is also a big deal, as I had finished the bar early on and basically didn't need to touch it for the rest of the project. I also had to change some of the flagbase areas, and could bake thouse without needing to rebake the struts, floor, etc).

We will be putting up a workflow video on the pureLIGHT site in the next week or so.

As for darker surfaces, I find that the lighting tends to get lost - this works well for games (therefore needing less in terms of quality indirect illumination), but personally that's why I end up on the lighter end of the spectrum. That said, I have seen some impressive dark projects with pureLIGHT, ranging from a a storming WW2 harbor to a night-time refinery (with over 1200 small light sources), and both projects turned out really well.

We have used pureLIGHT (with only background light) to create some impressive baked in ambient occlusion for our simulation projects. Its a bit of overkill, but it works pretty good (and could be used for an interesting environment style, I suppose). The Unreal Ambient Occlusion post process effect is something entirely different but also pretty spiffy; I personally love how they used it in Gears 2. I do think that this post process based Ambient Occlusion would detract from an environment like HangingGardens though. The effect tends to make corners and such excessively dark, which looks great with small details and heavy textures but is very obviously "wrong" when viewed from a clean lighting perspective. (look up at your ceiling with the light on - the lighting where the wall meets the ceiling is smooth and consistent, it doesn't all of a sudden fade to blackness over the last 3 inches). Really though, both are very different effects; it all comes down to what sort of visuals you are trying to create.

We are still finalizing the details regarding the gaming version of pureLIGHT, but if you (or anyone else) are interested in using it on a project, feel free to send a note via the pureLIGHT website. The integration with UT3 is a bit rough (compared to the support we added to Unreal 3 popper), but we might be able to works something out. Note that pureLIGHT is external to Unreal, so it would only effectively work on a scene built in an application like Max; don't expect to light stock assets or BSP with it. (note that hybrid scenes are fairly easy; HangingGardens uses pureLIGHT for the structure, and Unreal's own lighting for the cliff, rocks, and foliage).

Do people use splines to make curved walls? The only tutorials I see using spline are to make some cylinder type of object.

Almost all of the curves in HangingGardens started as splines, which were then extruded into poly objects. The bend modifier or similar would be really inappropriate for such shapes. I personally do not know of any good introduction tutorials for 3d Max - last time I looked for such was probably over 8 years ago now. I do highly recommend going down to your local bookstore (or some place like Amazon) and spending the $60 to buy a nice thick book on 3D Max. This book will only be te beginning, but it might be enough to get you past some of the initial hurdles. If you are considering this industry for a career, that $60 may be some of the best money you ever spend.

Hope that answers some questions!

A

[aka_sova]

Originally Posted by _N_

Holy smokes! Very nice video! I like how you showed off how the glass can be particularly useful for flag carriers, and total ROFL at the team-kill on that bot which fell through the glass there ! If I had a dime for every time I "accidentally" did that myself... Any chance of seeing an HD version? (I didn't see the option there anywhere...).
Thanks again! very nice!

Thanks There is only HQ option, there are 2 reasons for it - my original resolution was 800*600, as my computer isn't too strong and if it was bigger, than you would watch ~20 fps video . Second reason is that with HD it takes too much place and it takes too long to upload it, and high risk of being interrupted If you check my previous videos, you'll see, that quality there is much worse, i found out how to make normal HQ videos only recently...anyway, it's only overview and it's purpose is to attract people to try this map, where they can see and try everything by themselves

[aka_sova]

Can you tell me please, where i can get boots? Cuz i saw bots used it, but where did they take it?

[Darkdrium]

Look in the trees.