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Old 15th May 2009, 06:56 PM   #101
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Gee, and here we've been told that the majority of Americans are liberally minded. Seems it may not be so on all accounts: http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/Mo...irst-Time.aspx.

51% pro-life versus 42% pro-choice. Is this what those who voted for Obama would call a landslide? Yeah, that's a facetious and snide question on my part. But this poll does seem to reflect a slight change from recent years.

To be honest, all the Republican, re: conservative, bashing we are seeing today shows a lack of tolerance on the part of those who represent a party that stands for tolerance. Rather ironic, isn't it that the Democratic Party is now the party of hate and witch hunts?
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Old 15th May 2009, 07:03 PM   #102
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To be honest, all the Republican, re: conservative, bashing we are seeing today shows a lack of tolerance on the part of those who represent a party that stands for tolerance. Rather ironic, isn't it that the Democratic Party is now the party of hate and witch hunts?
Not really. Since any party in power does it, and the people that support that party always act like jackasses for the most part. If anything it's ordinary and expected.
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Old 15th May 2009, 07:32 PM   #103
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Not really. Since any party in power does it, and the people that support that party always act like jackasses for the most part. If anything it's ordinary and expected.
When is the last time a sitting Administration and Congressional majority went after the previous Administration's jugular? All I have to say is that if the Democrats keep this up, they will most likely get their when someone else steps into power. This is a very dangerous precedent to set. If the Democratic Party continues its intended genocide of the Republican Party, there will surely be a backlash of epic proportions.

Not that the Republican Party is all innocent here, but this full-tilt attack on the Bush Administration in its entirety needs to stop. If the Demos want to hold Bush and Cheney responsible for what occurred under there watch, then fine. But like I said, if it appears in any way that this is a partisan witch hunt, it may hurt the Dems in the long run.
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Old 15th May 2009, 07:41 PM   #104
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When is the last time a sitting Administration and Congressional majority went after the previous Administration's jugular?
Is this a serious question?
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Old 15th May 2009, 07:44 PM   #105
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When is the last time a sitting Administration and Congressional majority went after the previous Administration's jugular?
Wow.
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Old 15th May 2009, 08:04 PM   #106
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When is the last time a sitting Administration and Congressional majority went after the previous Administration's jugular? All I have to say is that if the Democrats keep this up, they will most likely get their when someone else steps into power. This is a very dangerous precedent to set. If the Democratic Party continues its intended genocide of the Republican Party, there will surely be a backlash of epic proportions.

Not that the Republican Party is all innocent here, but this full-tilt attack on the Bush Administration in its entirety needs to stop. If the Demos want to hold Bush and Cheney responsible for what occurred under there watch, then fine. But like I said, if it appears in any way that this is a partisan witch hunt, it may hurt the Dems in the long run.
A) Lol.

B) I certainly would hope that when the highest levels of power directly violate or authorize the violation of US law that they're prosecuted to the fullest extent allowable.


And yes, if Pelosi was in on it, she goes right up there with the rest of them. There is a reason those sorts of activities do not happen on US soil, and there is a reason they were kept hidden from the American public as long as possible: Because they are wrong.
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Old 15th May 2009, 09:14 PM   #107
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Is this a serious question?
Want to provide information? I did not say it never happened. I asked, "when was the last time it happened?" Big difference.

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A) Lol.
Ass.

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B) I certainly would hope that when the highest levels of power directly violate or authorize the violation of US law that they're prosecuted to the fullest extent allowable.


And yes, if Pelosi was in on it, she goes right up there with the rest of them. There is a reason those sorts of activities do not happen on US soil, and there is a reason they were kept hidden from the American public as long as possible: Because they are wrong.
Then prosecute anyone and everyone involved and quit making it out that only members of a certain political party are guilty of this crap.

One thing some of you forget is that these guys are not some simpleton civilians plucked off the street in random fashion. They are known terrorists and criminals. Do they deserve human treatment? Yes. But if you can squeeze some information out of them by going a little further than holding their hands, so be it. For a lot of reasons, the US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. For that alone, why not go ahead and waterboard? Oh, but you will argue that little if any information can be obtained through these techniques. You would be missing the big picture if you think these techniques are fruitless. You see, in the intelligence world, you use multiple sources to verify. And these dudes when p-whipped are good sources for verification. What, did you think we were going to use them as sole sources of info? What a frackin' joke.

The only reason we need to be careful how we handle these folks is so that our enemies cannot use this against us. We don't need to act more civilized, for where has THAT gotten us? Did our enemies give a **** during Clinton's "feel good" terms in office? Yeah, sure, 'tis why they bombed the WTC the first time and planned the eventual destruction of the towers.
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Old 15th May 2009, 09:20 PM   #108
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Old 15th May 2009, 10:36 PM   #109
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Most of the people in this thread would rather innocent people die than a known terrorist get waterboarded?

If people are being sentenced for national security, I guess we'll have to put every undercover federal agent in the world under arrest and prosecute them, then we will also have to arrest every member of Congress and prosecute them. Good grief.
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Old 15th May 2009, 11:16 PM   #110
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Most of the people in this thread would rather innocent people die than a known terrorist get waterboarded?

If people are being sentenced for national security, I guess we'll have to put every undercover federal agent in the world under arrest and prosecute them, then we will also have to arrest every member of Congress and prosecute them. Good grief.
Brizz, if you believe that waterboarding was directly responsible for keeping this country from being attacked by terrorists...



...could I interest you in a rock that stops asteroids from hitting our planet?
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Old 15th May 2009, 11:23 PM   #111
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Waterboarding is torture, what a joke . If it's ok for our navy seals and for a dozen reporters, then bust it out x2 on terrorists. I can't believe it's even an issue...

Pelosi should be waterboarded, then we'll see what she knew and how well it works

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Old 15th May 2009, 11:26 PM   #112
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Brizz, if you believe that waterboarding was directly responsible for keeping this country from being attacked by terrorists...

...could I interest you in a rock that stops asteroids from hitting our planet?
I don't know if they were or not, and neither do you. The current administration was happy to tell everyone what was happening but conveniently left out how effective those methods were. That certainly makes me suspicious, but it doesn't prove anything.

If you think this was anything more than a political ploy, then I've got some waterfront property in Montana you might be interested in.
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Old 15th May 2009, 11:36 PM   #113
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I don't know if they were or not, and neither do you. The current administration was happy to tell everyone what was happening but conveniently left out how effective those methods were. That certainly makes me suspicious, but it doesn't prove anything.

If you think this was anything more than a political ploy, then I've got some waterfront property in Montana you might be interested in.
You think maybe the point is that they decided waterboarding was a bad idea, effective or not?

Look, I'm just as worried as the next person is about a terrorist attack happening here, but even if we waterboarded everyone we thought might know where or when the next attack was going to happen, and we stopped it, are we any better off geopolitically because of it? Do you think we'd admit that? "Hell yeah, we waterboarded the guy who not only told us how to stop 25 guys who were going to fly 8 different planes into different buildings in Washington D.C. within 15 minutes of each other, he also gave us a GPS tracker showing Osama bin Laden's exact location, proof that North Korea has nuclear weapons, and the secret recipe to Bush's Baked Beans! WOO, FREE BUSH'S BAKED BEANS!"

Obviously I'm overdramatizing, but my point is I'd rather find a way to keep a guy in prison LEGALLY (none of this enemy combatant bullsh*t) than torture him if I thought it would be the most effective way of getting info out of him.
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Old 16th May 2009, 12:08 AM   #114
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Anybody who thinks water-boarding isn't torture needs to volunteer to be water-boarded 83 times
or until they admit the fact that it is indeed torture... which-ever comes first.

If we jailed some Japanese after WWII for "water-boarding" our soldiers (it was, after all, in
the interest of Japanese National Security), then we have no right to do it ourselves.

It's not about protecting the boogy-man terrorist from the torture. It's not about whether
it worked or not. It's about protecting our people from similar (or worst) treatment, it's about
our moral authority. It's about values, and the willingness to sacrifice and/or fight to uphold
them.

To you religious types... WWJD?

In the words of Shepard Smith; "We Are America, We Do Not F**king Torture!"

I think that in the heat of 9/11, people went crazy and did some unconscionable things.
We need to get past that, forgive them their errs and see that those things never happen again.
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Old 16th May 2009, 12:19 AM   #115
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You think maybe the point is that they decided waterboarding was a bad idea, effective or not?
No, I don't think they care about that at all. I think it's political posturing, based on the fact that none of the people making accusations was innocent from the knowledge that these things were happening. How could they be? They all approved funding for Gitmo until it wasn't politically viable for them to do so anymore.

Look, I'm not a fan of torture, but I realize that there are things that go on behind closed doors that I don't want to know about that keep innocent Americans alive. I honestly don't care about a known terrorist being waterboarded if it prevents (or helps to prevent) ANY attack (terroristic or not) on American soil. If he didn't want to risk being waterboarded, he shouldn't have become a known terrorist. Sorry if that somehow offends you.

Saying that what we were doing had no effect is pointless. They will never tell us how effective their techniques were because, if they were effective AT ALL, it will make them look like fools for exposing it. Yes, Jacks, this is for you since you moved your post below mine.

Anyway, if you really honestly think this is about morality or "being America", I truly feel sorry for your utopian view of our country.
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Old 16th May 2009, 12:22 AM   #116
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Whether or not you think waterboarding is heinous or crosses the line between interrogation and torture isn't really the issue here.

First and foremost is the fact that torture doesn't work. Someone will tell you whatever they can in order to get you to stop. Or just not tell you anything. Very rarely does the information gained from torture lead to actionable/useful intel. Mostly because, once you take someone off the battlefield and away from their network, they don't know what the hell is going on anymore.
If they were very high up, they've been replaced and plans have changed. If they were low down, they won't have much to say that is helpful or that you don't already know.

The notion that anything we did to our detainees prevented additional acts of terrorism is nonsense. It is already plainly evident that real "terrorists" have all the patience in the world and excellent planning ability.
For instance, US knew about Bin Laden and his network long before the first bombing of the Trade Center in 93'. That plan, with the bombs in the parking garage, it took years to conceive and carry out. When that failed, they took the next 8 damn years plotting their most magnificent attempt yet. They meticulously worked their agents into our country, WE TRAINED THEM, and when it was time they did their work.

Capturing a few guys at a time during the middle of a conflict and hoping to extract information about imminent attacks (happening within the same year or so) is ludicrous. Yet everyone seems to think that's how it works because they love to watch JACK BAUER do it every night on cable TV.
There are no Jack Bauer situations, that doesn't happen. Waterboarding some guys we picked up over the course of a couple years following 9/11 didn't prevent a damn thing. Terrorists don't operate on a schedule that would be so convinent as for us to grab one of them and foil all their master plans in a matter of months.

As if this isn't enough of a reason not to use those tactics, the fact is that they represent acts which the US would frown upon other nations for using. We have signed documents stating this and agreeing not to engage in them ourselves. Yet now we have, and we did so on the whim of panic, hoping to appease a nation which was all pissed off because no one had laid a finger on them since the 40's.

This makes us hypocritical every time we attempt to point the finger at another sovereign nation for something we disapprove of. We cannot waterboard and continue to tell others how they should conduct their state at the same time.
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Old 16th May 2009, 12:32 AM   #117
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Anybody who thinks water-boarding isn't torture needs to volunteer to be water-boarded 83 times
or until they admit the fact that it is indeed torture... which-ever comes first.
ohhh, ok I see. So it's ok to perform what you consider torture on "neo-cons", but not terrorists. Wow... the party of tolerance and love. How cute...


Quote:
If we jailed some Japanese after WWII for "water-boarding" our soldiers (it was, after all, in
the interest of Japanese National Security), then we have no right to do it ourselves.
I'm sorry, but to poor water over someone's face is a little different than shoving a hose down someone's throat and then jumping on their stomach.



Another nice distraction from what Obama's fiscal retardation. TWD's assertion still holds.
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Old 16th May 2009, 12:54 AM   #118
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ohhh, ok I see. So it's ok to perform what you consider torture on "neo-cons", but not terrorists. Wow... the party of tolerance and love. How cute....
Who said anything about "Neo-Cons"? I said "Anybody who thinks water-boarding isn't torture needs to volunteer..."
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Old 16th May 2009, 01:00 AM   #119
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Who said anything about "Neo-Cons"? I said "Anybody who thinks water-boarding isn't torture needs to volunteer..."
ok then. I don't think it is. So you condone, what you consider to be torture, to be done to me, just to prove me wrong? But, yea, it's too harsh for terrorists, but fine for me.
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Old 16th May 2009, 01:09 AM   #120
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If you volunteer, then yes, absolutely.
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