HOLP 3 - Talent Call.

[Atypic]

Hey All,

What is HOLP?
Brainchild of famous mapper hourences, the HOLP(Hardcore Old-skool Low Polygon) map pack was released just in time for Christmas 2007 with the aim to bring high quality gameplay maps minus the High level of graphical detail. This was to encourage people to play UT3 online with out having to worry about lag issues or getting caught on graphical clutter. It was so well received that it was decided to do a second pack which was released in September 2008. The same minimalistic mantra was applied with some amazing results proving that some lower polygon maps could indeed rival high poly maps in terms of visual quality.

Enter HOLP 3
Production on the 3rd pack has started. If you would like to join the team and release a map in this pack please PM barballs with the following:

• Introduce yourself - self explanatory
• Example(s) of past work - screenshot, map, textures
• Availability - how much time do you have to spend on this a week

HOLP 1


HOLP 2


HOLP Mapping Goals

• Focus on great gameplay
• Hardcore oldskool (think UT1) levels with minimum clutter, maximum gameplay, and somewhat decent visuals.
• Great perfomance.
• Wide range of themes and colors.
• No or limited bloom, depth of field, motion blur, normal maps, and so on.

[barballs]

You were quick with that copy!

What he said

[Hazel.H]

Hi, who are you? Was the holp team consulted first? I certainly didn't hear anything about this.

[barballs]

He copied my post Epic games. Hence the reason for post 2 in this thread.

It is pity you decided not to add a map with HOLP 3. If you would be able to fit one in that would be great If not we'll catch you for HOLP 4.

[Sjosz]

Oh wow Barballs is alive?
It seems that communication before announcements has drastically improved... oh wait, it hasn't.

[Hazel.H]

Originally Posted by barballs

He copied my post Epic games. Hence the reason for post 2 in this thread.

It is pity you decided not to add a map with HOLP 3. If you would be able to fit one in that would be great If not we'll catch you for HOLP 4.

Yes it is a shame isn't it. In case you hadn't realised, the rest of the team have had enough with you, our self appointed leader, but nobody seems to want to kick up a fuss about it and I don't blame them. They say there's no "I" in "Team" but there's a "Me" if you screw it up a bit, and you did a royal job of screwing us over. That's the main reason I don't want to do anything more for HOLP.

Come onto IRC if you want to talk.

There's already stuff underway for HOLP3 and we're managing ourselves now, Beyondunreal have kindly hosted a forum for us.

Excuse the rant.

[Rask]

Wait, who are people being angry for here? Barballs, Atypic or who? :S

OT: Map testing done exclusively "in house"?

I'd really consider joining, but I've got no previous work to show except a single CTF level (beta as of now) for UT3. What if I'd create a HOLP style level and finalise it alone, then send you guys to see "if it can make it"?

Considering previous HOLPs, it seems UT1/UT2 remakes are okay?

Or is 3 so far underway that its not worth trying to get on anymore?

Thanks for taking the time anyway to continue doing HOLPs, quality stuff.

(I'm wondering if there will ever be a Warfare HOLP map... )

[Hazel.H]

Originally Posted by Rask

OT: Map testing done exclusively "in house"?

I'd really consider joining, but I've got no previous work to show except a single CTF level (beta as of now) for UT3. What if I'd create a HOLP style level and finalise it alone, then send you guys to see "if it can make it"?

Considering previous HOLPs, it seems UT1/UT2 remakes are okay?

Or is 3 so far underway that its not worth trying to get on anymore?

Thanks for taking the time anyway to continue doing HOLPs, quality stuff.

(I'm wondering if there will ever be a Warfare HOLP map... )

We tend to keep map testing between ourselves and trusted friends. Come and visit our channel if you like - #holp on irc.quakenet.org, or PM / email one of us with a link to any levels you've done or works in progress

[barballs]

Originally Posted by Sjosz

Oh wow Barballs is alive?
It seems that communication before announcements has drastically improved... oh wait, it hasn't.

If you checked the project site you would see that I was indeed alive. You also clearly stated you did not have time to work on this. So more mappers were clearly needed from that point of view (link for your convenience)

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

Yes it is a shame isn't it. In case you hadn't realised, the rest of the team have had enough with you, our self appointed leader, but nobody seems to want to kick up a fuss about it and I don't blame them. They say there's no "I" in "Team" but there's a "Me" if you screw it up a bit, and you did a royal job of screwing us over. That's the main reason I don't want to do anything more for HOLP.

Really? Who ever said anything about appointed leader? So be cause I set up a project site to make things easier and offered to host the site that make me the leader? I think not. I never claimed ownership. It is a poor look out if someone can't say "I'd like us to do something different". As for "Screwing you over", how exactly did that happen? And When the site was 400 Euros in debt I panicked asking publicly for help first (admittedly a bad judgment call on my part) where were you and the others to offer support?

This goes both ways and I'll thank you for keeping this post on topic. I will try catch you on IRC but as you know why I am over here in the first place that is not going to be easy. A message on the HOLP management site that was set up would be helpful.

[Cr4zyB4st4rd]

You say you aren't the self elected leader but this thread just goes against that. You clearly just asked publicly without asking anyone from the previous team for new mappers.

[Rask]

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

We tend to keep map testing between ourselves and trusted friends. Come and visit our channel if you like - #holp on irc.quakenet.org, or PM / email one of us with a link to any levels you've done or works in progress

Sure thing. I'll visit sometime soon.

[Hazel.H]

Originally Posted by barballs

And When the site was 400 Euros in debt I panicked asking publicly for help first (admittedly a bad judgment call on my part) where were you and the others to offer support?

Why would I offer support to someone I believe to be dishonest, and don't trust? I still very much doubt whether the claim was genine or not. And posting stuff about kids going hungry? Come on, that's the oldest one in the book.

Effectively you just came and took over, whether you realise it or not, always making decisions alone without consulting the rest of the team. These decisions don't reflect our wishes at all, but you make it seem like you're speaking for all of us by posting it on a public forum.

The first any of us hear about any "decisions" you make is on a public forum. Seems it's become a one-man map pack.

To name but a few reasons I'm angry...
- Asking for donations from the community (without talking to anyone else about it first). To me this looks like a blatant abuse of community trust and generosity.
- Making promises you can't keep (holp3 exclusive previews), which then falls to us to manage and get things out on time
- According to your post on epic forums, we're going to release this in two months.... what the hell?
- Disappearing off the face of the planet, only popping up to post something on the forums and never communicate with the team members. I understand that you have difficult commitments at the moment, however.
- Pushing deadlines forward so your own maps could make the pack, then not making any concessions for other members with deadlines.
- Do I really need to go into the whole UCMP thing and why you were no longer welcome there?

[evilmrfrank]

Ya it would be nice if we were actually kept in the loop of things once in a while. And I completely agree that it appears you've decided to make yourself leader.

[barballs]

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

Why would I offer support to someone I believe to be dishonest, and don't trust? I still very much doubt whether the claim was genine or not. And posting stuff about kids going hungry? Come on, that's the oldest one in the book.

Wow, that's cold. You, who met me in person, saw me actually leave my dream job to take care of that situation? Speechless. I maybe phrased that wrong. The bill maxed out the credit card I have thus not allowing me to get the weeks groceries. I posted evidence of my claim on this forum somewhere to show the extent of the hosting (doubling my 100GB limit if I recall)

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

Effectively you just came and took over, whether you realise it or not, always making decisions alone without consulting the rest of the team.

I didn't realize it, obviously, and if people had a problem with it why didn't anyone speak up in the months. It is a team anyone could have said anything, even something as simple as: "Who put you in charge?". Too much effort?

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

The first any of us hear about any "decisions" you make is on a public forum. Seems it's become a one-man map pack.

Really? So why do is it in writing on the holp.projectpath.com site regarding most of the decisions? In particular regard to HOLP 3: When asked about getting it started. You simply gave a 1 word answer of "No". So going on that I think it was pretty clear you and the 5 others did not want part of the map pack and Obviously I needed more people so I put a call out to the public as the private call yielded such low numbers. And this was over a month AFTER the private call. So Please don't come at me saying you NEVER had any input in decisions OR that I did not include you.

My Post regarding this whole mess (which was also emailed to also has gone unanswered ) which is where we should be having this discussion.

Regarding you reasons:

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

- Asking for donations from the community (without talking to anyone else about it first). To me this looks like a blatant abuse of community trust and generosity.

As previously explained NUMEROUS times. It was a mistake on my part to ask publicly first. I fully admit to that. But I was panicked and not thinking straight. But as you became aware it could have been handled better internally but as you stated you so clearly think I am a fraud. So I don't think you would have helped even if i had found you first.

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

- Making promises you can't keep (holp3 exclusive previews), which then falls to us to manage and get things out on time

Please! That is a promise I FULLY intend on keeping. And it would NOT fall on you to manage as it would be something that I take care of as we go through development. If instead of posing your screenshots on the forums you put them on the project site (same amount of effort) it would all be taken care of then they would be added to the preview thread on the forums a few days later, again by me if that is ok with everyone.

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

- According to your post on epic forums, we're going to release this in two months.... what the hell?

There are 2 maps that are already in beta. Plus a third that is complete. Like HOLP 1, Which had a 1 week turn around for me (I was invited in on the last week with flustered), I was looking to recruit people with time on their hands hence the:

1. Introduce yourself - self explanatory
2. Example(s) of past work - screenshot, map, textures
3. Availability - how much time do you have to spend on this a week

Also I said I was looking for a two month turn around. Not expecting. The mapper asked a question and I gave him an answer based on what I'd like to see for the time line. And seeing as there was no information on the project site from most of you regarding HOLP3 other than your apparent refusal to do a map this time. How was I to know any different? So how exactly was I to know that you had decided differently? Giving out to me about bad communication is one thing but it kind of loses its power when you go ahead secretly after saying quite clearly, no and then not telling the one person who made all these promises to the public for HOLP3. Communication IS a 2 way street.

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

- Disappearing off the face of the planet, only popping up to post something on the forums and never communicate with the team members. I understand that you have difficult commitments at the moment, however.

Oh so you decided to acknowledge this now? Thank you for that at least. Regarding the communicating with team. Knowing my real life situation would it be too much to ask for a "hey you alive? we're doing HOLP 3, this time don't make like you are taking over"? As I said Communication works both ways.

And not revealing any of this animosity until now is a little not sure exactly what the right word is. (unprofessional? immature? irresponsible?)

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

- Pushing deadlines forward so your own maps could make the pack, then not making any concessions for other members with deadlines.

Oh that was purely for my benefit was it? When did I want to initially release the pack? Do you remember? It was pushed back twice to make you and others happy. You don't remember that chat with me and Jos in the office about it? So when I moved country and uprooted my life which you at least acknowledge now as "difficult commitments at the moment", It was a lot more difficult then. I asked on IRC for a later deadline so that I could indeed get precision in? Nobody seemed to have a problem with it then (all of a 2 days worth of an extension). So why is there a problem now?

Originally Posted by Hazel.H

- Do I really need to go into the whole UCMP thing and why you were no longer welcome there?

Oh my god. Well firstly: You were not part of the team at the time nor any time soon after for that matter so you really have no grounds to bring that up. Secondly I believe I am in good terms regarding that with All involved.

For those who are unaware: My UCMP map was Based off of the CPMA map pull your socks up by Lunaran. I had publicly acknowledged this many occasions. (example here: atari public form post. Months before UCMP 1, and Insite forum post again long before UCMP)
As you can see I made no illusion that this was NOT an original map on my part. So fast forward a few months. I get accepted into UCMP to release my map having provided them with both forum posts above so they knew it was a remake. Sjosz took a liking to my level and when and added the entire upper section and practically took the map out of my hands. Needless to say I was quite upset that he did that. instead of letting me do it off the diagram he drew but it made the level amazing and I was not about to go redo the work so I just rolled with it. The rest of the development goes off with out a hitch. Dregs provided me with an updated texture to use on the stairwell which was included in the level and then the map got corrupted. So working from an earlier version I had 1 night to get the map back to scratch before the deadline. I added the standard UCMP readme and not the updated one with the credits to Lunaran and I credited the whole UCMP team for the work they did in providing feedback and for the work the did on the level I did not explicitly credit Dregs for the texture nor Sjosz for the upper floor as they were both on the team so I didn't think I needed to double credit.

The release of the pack was a great success and Derelict was a quick favourite. A month or two later the original author, Lunaran saw the level and found no credit to him mentioned in the readme. Needless to say all hell broke lose. I realized that I had not uploaded the right readme and immediately set about correcting the problem. However the UCMP team members mentioned were less forgiving. But those ruffled feathers were also eventually smoothed and I had been accepted back to UCMP for UCMP 5 which then died. So I am welcome, at least by some.

Originally Posted by evilmrfrank

Ya it would be nice if we were actually kept in the loop of things once in a while. And I completely agree that it appears you've decided to make yourself leader.

Not my intent but some one needed to do something. And If someone has a problem with that he/she/they should have spoken up about it rather than sitting still until now.

[Hazel.H]

Originally Posted by barballs

Not my intent but some one needed to do something. And If someone has a problem with that he/she/they should have spoken up about it rather than sitting still until now.

It's been said before, maybe not strongly enough. I'm sorry it had to get confrontational like this, but we've decided to move on.