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Old 1st Dec 2008, 02:27 AM   #121
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When there are less than 200 people playing online for an online game, that doesn't make for the greatest of arguments.

Better choices include TF2, CoD4 (and 2 and WaW (even though it blows)), L4D, and CS, all of which are online-only (well, for CoD4 there simply aren't bots to play with on the MP levels) and are doing well.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 03:58 AM   #122
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They should definately be there as options, mutators really, and not as forced gameplay changes, but it certainly would be nice if they where there for us to play around with.
Yeah thats what Im thinkin, I mean even if there was extra functionality say the enforcers were replaced with a necris or krall counterpart and the krall's doubled as a melee weapon for eg to replace the hammer.

Thats the kinda thing I can get into with friends on pubs, perhaps havin a few drinks and having fun.

For the people who take the game more seriously, they obviously wouldnt use those options, thats not to say they wont pick up those options if they are well balanced though. Itd certainly give Epic a guage for what features could become standard, which kinda goes into my next point.

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But even if you did finish your mod right now, how many people do you figure would play it? i doubt it would draw in new people who have otherwise given up on UT3, so that just leaves the few who still play it, and how many of thouse will pick it up?

I don't know about you, but thouse prospects would not put me in a modding mood, at all.
But on the flipside, if they actually do mange to make UT3 good with this expansion ("good" as in: people will actually play it, more people than 200, alot more people!), and it comes with some new tech, and improoves modding so i could, for instance, make player skins or voice packs without needing to create a whole new standalone model and faction, or opening doors in maps, now THAT might just put me back in a modding mood!
For me its not so much about the amount of people who play what I make but making something thats fun, ofcoarse you need people to play it to improve on it, balance and the like. Thing with that is alot of people wont try stuff out especially online, server admins seem very unwilling to pickup anything that isnt a UTComp, relics or invasion (basically anything thats a name brand in modding)

To that end even if the player counts were higher theres no guarantee what I make will see the light of day on any server, unless I happen to create one and put it on there myself.

Thats the biggest turn off for me aside from Epic announcing the expansion, I was certainly getting some thanks and feedback but it wasnt enough to keep improving on things. When you test something yourself you just get a different perspective than when other people test it, Im really not into closed testing for simple things like mods that are freely available anyways so I put things out there and see where it goes.

So in the end its great if people play it, better if they provide feedback but Im not looking to create anything for the sake of popularity

If people only play the things other people play though we get stuck in the loop of familiarity with things not improving that often, there are certainly mods out there pushing things to another level and even trying new things but even with my own stuff Im stuck with recreating things from the past.

Id really like to push things forward and try new things but I think being tied to UT limits my perspective some in the design process.

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Originally Posted by cosmix View Post
More than a million units globally for UT3 isn't good?
Not across 3 platforms its not, especially with plenty of other titles busting 1mil on 1 platform.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 07:26 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by T2A` View Post
When there are less than 200 people playing online for an online game, that doesn't make for the greatest of arguments.

Better choices include TF2, CoD4 (and 2 and WaW (even though it blows)), L4D, and CS, all of which are online-only (well, for CoD4 there simply aren't bots to play with on the MP levels) and are doing well.
GameSpy says that 230 people play it. Not far from UT2003 with 180 players.

I don't see how TF2 for example is a better choice. Go play XMP instead :P And it's not even in the GameSpy list.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 08:01 AM   #124
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I don't see how TF2 for example is a better choice. Go play XMP instead :P And it's not even in the GameSpy list.
You don't see it in the stats because it is "part" of Half Life 2.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 08:05 AM   #125
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1 million sales isn't a great deal these days, online it's deserted considering the whole point of UT is as a multiplayer.

Less coyness from Epic would help. Although under no obligation to long time fans. It seems like whenever they do speak to the pc community these days , it's to either say, UT3 failed because; "you're all torrent pirates, or that pc gaming is dead", etc. It'd be so refreshing if they said, whether they think the metacritic score is about right with the 307th place position for UT3 & 16th and 38th for Ut2004, UT respectively. Draw sales conclusions from this sad fact, rather than lashing out at the fanbase.

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Old 1st Dec 2008, 09:13 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T2A` View Post
When there are less than 200 people playing online for an online game, that doesn't make for the greatest of arguments.

Better choices include TF2, CoD4 (and 2 and WaW (even though it blows)), L4D, and CS, all of which are online-only (well, for CoD4 there simply aren't bots to play with on the MP levels) and are doing well.
Out of all those games you listed, only TF2 is online only.

1 million units worldwide ACROSS ALL PLATFORMS isn't that great when you consider that Gears of War 1 sold over 5 million units worldwide on a single platform.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 10:05 AM   #127
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Meh. My dislike of the armor system mainly stems from 1v1 play. As with anything (map design, weapon balance, etc.), the more people you stuff into a map the less things matter, and this holds true for the armor.

After seeing how UT2004 1v1 was dominated by hitscan, I was hoping UT3 would provide something much more entertaining and multidimensional. Unfortunately, the belt causes problems in a 1v1 because it takes all three of the other armor pieces together to simply be equal to it. And even then I don't think they're ever truly equal due to the math involved with the variable damage absorption.

So, all the 1v1s I played ended up being belt-camping matches, which made them less fun than UT2004 pew-pew matches. D:
Well for 1on1 it is true, especially if you play with player that abuse shieldbelt and camp on it, my style of playing is a random play, "pickup what is around", while not most effective, its the most fun and especially if the other plays that way as well.
But you could say the same about all previous titles other than UT2004, because they had all belt or its variant......
But I like belts actually.......more than the UT2004 armor.
But then again all of Uts today have rather bad gameplay online, either its filled with idiotic mods or there are these annoying "l33t pl4y3r5", so I prefer gametypes like coop or monsterhunt at original UT, I never much liked DM online in UT, with bots its something else though and more fun IMO. The most fun at stock gametypes at original UT I had on the DOG clan server running assault, there are some great custom maps (better than the stock maps which can be completed really fast if you are skilled, that counts also for popular assault bonuspack)....
And about belts:
Unreal had two belts in fact, one shieldbelt with 100 points and another powershield with 200 points default and this latter one, to balance things out, had timer set on it so it drained through time until it washed out, unfortunatelly at later patches it was removed this timer(its there but not working), fortunatelly no official dm maps(except for the creative labs mappack) have powershield included, but there is a problem with the custom made maps made prior patch 220 or something.....simply they have powershield and its unbalanced, there is not majority of these maps, but there are few like that...dm mappers on later patches never included powershield, well some did, but the best ones not...
I can also complain that they changed dispersionpistol etc(through patches) to more useless weapon online too, although its easily fixed when using some mods like uteamfix where can be added automags to your default inventory.
I mean there were even made some maps prior 220 which were meant to be dispersionpistol and its upgrades only, its real fun with bots at release version on these maps, however on later versions its very boring......despite later versions having much better netcode......
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 11:05 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UBerserker View Post
You don't see it in the stats because it is "part" of Half Life 2.
Why those Half-Lifers!

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Originally Posted by JEnepas View Post
It seems like whenever they do speak to the pc community these days , it's to either say, UT3 failed because; "you're all torrent pirates, or that pc gaming is dead", etc.
Yeah, or the infamous "if you can build your own PC, you're a pirate"

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Out of all those games you listed, only TF2 is online only.
Wait a min, out of all Unreal series games only U2XMP is online only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo(T.C.K.) View Post
Well for 1on1 it is true, especially if you play with player that abuse shieldbelt and camp on it, my style of playing is a random play, "pickup what is around", while not most effective, its the most fun and especially if the other plays that way as well.
But you could say the same about all previous titles other than UT2004, because they had all belt or its variant......
But I like belts actually.......more than the UT2004 armor.
But then again all of Uts today have rather bad gameplay online, either its filled with idiotic mods or there are these annoying "l33t pl4y3r5", so I prefer gametypes like coop or monsterhunt at original UT, I never much liked DM online in UT, with bots its something else though and more fun IMO. The most fun at stock gametypes at original UT I had on the DOG clan server running assault, there are some great custom maps (better than the stock maps which can be completed really fast if you are skilled, that counts also for popular assault bonuspack)....
And about belts:
Unreal had two belts in fact, one shieldbelt with 100 points and another powershield with 200 points default and this latter one, to balance things out, had timer set on it so it drained through time until it washed out, unfortunatelly at later patches it was removed this timer(its there but not working), fortunatelly no official dm maps(except for the creative labs mappack) have powershield included, but there is a problem with the custom made maps made prior patch 220 or something.....simply they have powershield and its unbalanced, there is not majority of these maps, but there are few like that...dm mappers on later patches never included powershield, well some did, but the best ones not...
I can also complain that they changed dispersionpistol etc(through patches) to more useless weapon online too, although its easily fixed when using some mods like uteamfix where can be added automags to your default inventory.
I mean there were even made some maps prior 220 which were meant to be dispersionpistol and its upgrades only, its real fun with bots at release version on these maps, however on later versions its very boring......despite later versions having much better netcode......
Actually I like Shieldbelt idea more as well. Though the holo Shields are interesting too and IMO fit the holographic theme of UT2KX. Where did you see adrenaline pills *THAT* large?
And yes, online is quite a bad thing because it's very new-player-unfriendly, I mean, you log in and basically you're dead. In UT2004 it's better as it has open maps where enemies can't rip you that easily and you have time to strategise.
As for Power Shields, well, they're 1337, and they stack with normal ShieldBelts. You *could* counter that with a Shield Belt and Superhealth though.
And about DPs, what, did it use less ammo back then? Or faster fire rate? Or both? Too bad the alt fire wasn't bFireOnRelease like in Unreal II... And Unreal II DP looks a lot better too. Shiny blue!
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 01:51 PM   #129
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DP was more powerfull at these times, combined with amplifier even too powerfull as you could take down titan in one shot with fully upgraded dp and amplifier......
It had better sound and effect too imo.....

So together with jumpboots, dp and stinger and of course powershield, its all brokwn in later patches.

But still I like shieldbelts better.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 05:30 PM   #130
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For me its not so much about the amount of people who play what I make but making something thats fun, ofcoarse you need people to play it to improve on it, balance and the like. Thing with that is alot of people wont try stuff out especially online, server admins seem very unwilling to pickup anything that isnt a UTComp, relics or invasion (basically anything thats a name brand in modding)

To that end even if the player counts were higher theres no guarantee what I make will see the light of day on any server, unless I happen to create one and put it on there myself.
Its not about popularity, if people get into modding to become "popular" they are barking up the wrong tree, modders are very unapreciated people mostly.

But ultimately, its depends on what kind of mod you make.. if i make a little mutator that tweaks gameplay a bit, then really, i'll be quite happy just playing it offline myself, and hopefully, some other people out there will have fun doing the same, and give me some feedback, maybe even a "nice work" along the way, then my little mod has done its job.

But if i was making a much bigger mod, the next RO, TO or Troopers, then thats a rather different ballgame, a mod like that needs players, and all the work that goes into something like that, man, i'd be pretty sad to see only a handfull of people enjoying it, thats, just gotta suck..

And then there's shades of grey inbetween the two.


I'll tell you what though, about servers beeing very conservative about what they pick? yeah, they definately are, and it has held true for any game i have played or modded, so, really, if you want your mod to get out there and be played, you need to not focus on servers to begin with, target the Offline crowd (IE: make sure it has good bot support), then it will get played, and if its good and enough people play it, and talk about it on forums and IRC, people will start to take notice, including the servers.

This doesen't quite work for all mods (Offliners woulden't be playing one that, for instance, tries to improove online lag, they have no need for it), but generally, this could take you places, get you needed feedback, and get your mod noticed
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 05:48 PM   #131
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Yeah I largely target offline peeps, I do my best to make my stuff work on servers because some people might use it in a lan environment. Without server admins taking notice, never having been one myself, its hard to know what they would require from my mods to make it easier for them to use.

I do think there are more then 200 people playing UT3 though, they just arnt playing it online.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 08:48 PM   #132
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Epic VP Mark Rein has told Eurogamer that relations with publisher Midway are fine, and that the pair are working together on a "major expansion" for Unreal Tournament 3.

"Midway is still very much the publisher of Unreal Tournament 3," said Rein, dismissing speculation that the two would part ways following a gloomy financial report for the publisher.

"In fact, we're working together on a major expansion to Unreal Tournament 3, that we expect will excite and grow our UT3 customer base which, incidentally, now numbers over a million units sold-through world-wide."

Rein offered no further details, but went on to point out that the two mysterious titles being canned by Midway refer to "licensed" properties and not those such as The Wheelman - a game he said is coming along very well.

Instead, he said an educated guess would assume there wouldn't be another NBA Ballers, for example, which makes sense.

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=263906
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 10:15 PM   #133
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Yeah, we got the same quote from him and ran it on the front page a while back.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 10:40 PM   #134
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Wait a min, out of all Unreal series games only U2XMP is online only.
I'm not talking about games that can only be played online, I'm talking about games that don't have a "single player" element. And, no, UT3 Campaign and Tournament Ladders and Instant Action don't count. I'm talking about a true blue tried and true single player campaign.
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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 01:13 AM   #135
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But its a new game, not expansion to UT2004.........and they took away the crappy weapons which I am glad of........
Yeah the game really took off after that. Maybe if they get rid of a few more crappy weapons we can get it down to just 3 people playing it on line.
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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 04:39 AM   #136
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I'm not talking about games that can only be played online, I'm talking about games that don't have a "single player" element. And, no, UT3 Campaign and Tournament Ladders and Instant Action don't count. I'm talking about a true blue tried and true single player campaign.
Well theres a point, maybe the campaign would have been more successful if it wasnt just a glorified ladder!

Basically what Epic did is screwed up the ladder by making it a campaign and screwed up the campaign by making it too much like a tourney. If they wanted the whole "war" thing it woulda came out better if it wasnt tied to tournament styled play.

You ever seen that movie future sport? Well its kinda like a rollarball ripoff right and the outcome of the matches determine the results for world wars. It really was a lame idea, I can understand future sports but I very much doubt that it'll ever replace tried and true kick the **** outta someone, anything goes, no arena necessary

Anyways they coulda had both, like having a tournament then it going into the war after that or having both seperate. Like perhaps 2 major acts with the tourney and a touch of story in there then going onto the more SP orientated warfare.

As it stands I think they managed to alienate both sets of players by going half in on each
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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 08:47 AM   #137
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But ultimately, its depends on what kind of mod you make.. if i make a little mutator that tweaks gameplay a bit, then really, i'll be quite happy just playing it offline myself, and hopefully, some other people out there will have fun doing the same, and give me some feedback, maybe even a "nice work" along the way, then my little mod has done its job.
Indeed, that's what I do too.

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I do think there are more then 200 people playing UT3 though, they just arnt playing it online.
Of course there are. Most people just don't want to spend ages downloading all that HUGE extra content, and other servers just lag like hell.

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I'm not talking about games that can only be played online, I'm talking about games that don't have a "single player" element. And, no, UT3 Campaign and Tournament Ladders and Instant Action don't count. I'm talking about a true blue tried and true single player campaign.
Aah. Then they're just single-player-less games

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Yeah the game really took off after that. Maybe if they get rid of a few more crappy weapons we can get it down to just 3 people playing it on line.
They could give server-side options for different weapon types. They could even add Unreal II weapons there, but they just don't.

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You ever seen that movie future sport? Well its kinda like a rollarball ripoff right and the outcome of the matches determine the results for world wars. It really was a lame idea, I can understand future sports but I very much doubt that it'll ever replace tried and true kick the **** outta someone, anything goes, no arena necessary
Well, arenas are necessary if after you kick them, TCA comes and arrests you for good. While in arenas you can let your anger flow without thinking about any consequences to your opponent or yourself. That is, if Respawners work good.

They should have followed UC2 style I think. SP and ladder separated, good for both, plus everything's nicely explained and with humour.
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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 08:56 AM   #138
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blah blah blah...

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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 09:15 AM   #139
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well i have no idea what theyre going to do, but maybe if they did something like release a UT3 eXtremeTournament Edition, and re-release UT3 as a finished polished product with new Server Browser & UI with the emphasis on the Tournament then maybe thatd stir the pot ... fix the major issues, add some factions, fix modding issues and add some more content ala 2k3 -> 2k4 then we're talkin'
I would call it:

Unreal Tournament III Online Multiplayer Extreme Edition
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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 09:21 AM   #140
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Wow. tough crowd.
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