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Old 25th Apr 2008, 03:01 AM   #21
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WTF how could u forget to mention the graphics? Gameplay is more important but that's not all!
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 05:42 AM   #22
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Anyone who loses interest in UT3 because it had a bad UI needs to stop playing games entirely because they are obviously having fun in the menus more than having fun in the games.
quote ftw
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 07:15 AM   #23
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I think the game has proven to be an Epic Failure based on the online player counts; that's the ultimate measuring stick, IMHO. Also, it's not as though large numbers of custom maps and mods are being made for the game and even if they were, there isn't enough of a player base to maintain server player counts for them.

As for the user interface, my primary complaint about it is that it's clunky and slow and you still can't do many things you could with the other games.

Let me give you an example. Have you ever been on a server and contemplated leaving that server for another server? Ever wanted to open up the server browser and see what the player counts were on other servers? In UT99 and UT 2004 I could pull up the server browser and look at other servers in about three seconds. With UT3 I have to first leave the server, wait for the main menu to load up, then open up the server browser, and if I want to keep playing on the server that I was on, I have to wait for it to reload the map, etc.

That gripe is representative of the user interface and server browser as a whole. Why the !#?$! should I have to load the main menu in the first place? I don't really care about the cute map in the background! And just how exactly do you make a clear-cut aspect of the game--something as fundamental as the user interface and server browser--dramatically worse than what you had in previous games?

I could go on. It isn't just one or two aspects of the gameplay's packaging that are substandard; it's most if not almost all aspects of it.

I'm not a bad guy. I don't take any pleasure in UT3's failure. I didn't want it to fail. I love the UT franchise and had hoped that UT3 would live up to UT99's success. I was very enthusiastic about it. However, I am disgusted with this mess that Epic has created. It's not that Epic didn't get delicate and difficult chemistry right; the user interface and server browser are straightforward and they are design decisions, and those decisions resulted in a substandard user interface and server browser that played a very large role in souring players on the game.

I'm also bothered by my perception that Epic really does not care and has no desire to make another good UT game for the PC. I think that the franchise could be revitalized and that there is in fact a market for a hardcore competitive online multiplayer FPS. Epic could do it ala UT 2003 to UT 2004, but I don't think Epic has the desire, and that's what's so sad.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 07:26 AM   #24
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I cant believe people keep saying they want UT2003-04 again, you want a mess, that was it. I mean it caused far too many hastles and I felt much more ripped off after epic announced UT2004 than I have with UT3 because there hasnt been any hint (thankfully) of things going that way.

I still dont see how this goes to Epic's commitment to UT3, if anything what you are saying would break any commitments Epic has to the game which I think is the worst possible move. Did we see any patches for UT2003 after UT2004 was released?

I think 1.3 patch will be even more of a step in the right direction for UT3, Im not going to sit here and say the retail is perfect because I think its obvious it was released alittle to early. I think you'll find the UI was rushed to get the demo out so little changed to when it went gold, they just didnt have time after putting the game together to get the UI right. UT on the other hand got delayed more than it should of apparently and it took Epic 2 whole tries in UT2003/04 and they still couldnt get it right.

I think its alittle more difficult than you are thinking about, I mean sure more attention should have been paid but I dont think that shows any less commitment by Epic to make UT3 a good game. They just got caught by bad timing and if anything the rest of the game benifits because of the lack of focus on UI stuff, it shows they were more interested in getting the game right. Thats more than I can say for UT2003-UT2004 where the UI was about the biggest improvement and honestly thats not saying much, but atleast they got rid of boost dodging right?
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 08:33 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by evilmrfrank View Post
Anyone who loses interest in UT3 because it had a bad UI needs to stop playing games entirely because they are obviously having fun in the menus more than having fun in the games.
Although I agree that he UI problem is overrated, but UI is the first thing that you see when you load up the game. Bad UI doesnt really affect gameplay and stuff, but it becomes quite annoying. I remember how ugly and clumsy the UI was in Supreme Commander, and how nicely it was fixed in expansion (Forged Alliance). And to be honest, it really made quite a big difference, i still sometimes shudder when i remember the old UI.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 08:47 AM   #26
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Let me give you an example. Have you ever been on a server and contemplated leaving that server for another server? Ever wanted to open up the server browser and see what the player counts were on other servers? In UT99 and UT 2004 I could pull up the server browser and look at other servers in about three seconds. With UT3 I have to first leave the server, wait for the main menu to load up, then open up the server browser, and if I want to keep playing on the server that I was on, I have to wait for it to reload the map, etc.

That gripe is representative of the user interface and server browser as a whole. Why the !#?$! should I have to load the main menu in the first place? I don't really care about the cute map in the background! And just how exactly do you make a clear-cut aspect of the game--something as fundamental as the user interface and server browser--dramatically worse than what you had in previous games?
The funny thing is that, since UT, this wasn't re-introduced until the final patch of UT2003 and, IIRc, the second or third patch of UT2004.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 10:14 AM   #27
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Didn't Unreal feature a map in the background ?
Or was that just the demo/attract-mode for the game ?

Besides ... when reporting the 'history' of UT it is also important to note that originally it was supposed to be an expansion-pack for Unreal itself.

MSUC 2008 ... if that isn't a commitment to the game then I don't know what is.

Citing the lack of community maps as a sing of 'failure' is beyond stupid.
Even pros need quite a bit of time to finish a map with the level of detail that UT3 supports.
As a result I'm rather surprised that we've had an entire mappack already (the HOLP-pack).

SupCom may have its UI-issues 'fixed' ... but it did require an expansionpack that had to be paid for. Considering that unlike a rts (where the interface = 80% of the game) a fps only needs a functional server-browser. That makes any changes to the menu rather costly part of the game.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 10:58 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by evilmrfrank View Post
Anyone who loses interest in UT3 because it had a bad UI needs to stop playing games entirely because they are obviously having fun in the menus more than having fun in the games.
the sad thing is they probably spend half the time navigating the sprawling maze that is the menu as they do actually playing the game

im guessing sometimes they get lost in the endless ramble of clicking, spend half an hour trying to figure it out, fianlly give up in frustration and then go on the nearest forum and start their bitching again, which may be the reason no one seems to play



atleast, that's my theory
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 11:41 AM   #29
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What makes it that way, though?

The Unreal menu was stylistically similar to it, but nobody whined about it being consolified back then.

I do agree that the UI needs a bit of changing, but not because it's consolified, but because it has a poor design flow and less options than previous games expectations were set.
That's actually something I've been trying to decipher. People seem dead-set on using that term, so I'm trying to figure out exactly what it means. I seem to recall that 2003's menu was called consolized, as well, and I can see a lot of similarities between the 2003, 2004 and UT3 menus. I think it involves a big main menu screen, that goes off onto other pages, as opposed to, if we look at Crysis or UWindows, it acts more like an operating system, where you open different things, but stay on the same "page" throughout. I think that's a good part of the issue.
People also consider console games to be dumbed down and simple, and designed for people who aren't really gamers and aren't smart enough to figure out a wider range of options (which is simply false, but that's another matter), so any simplification is, I think, also automatically labeled as consolization.
As for UT3's menu, I can navigate it just as quickly as I can 2004's, and the format seems largely the same, so I have no idea what the issue is.
..........

I could do without the splash screen, but the delay in loading the menu, for the first time at least, is just like having to load and skip the Nvidia thing, or the initial flyby intro each time in the previous games...
As for the map in the background, there're mods that fix that, now, so it's not really an issue. One from this very site, in fact.
..........

The original UT is like the original Doom. Its sequels will never really live up to it. UT had, among other things, the benefit of being something very new. Every time Epic tries to do something new, they get ridiculed for it (Unreal 2, XMP, UC2, 2003) so that leaves them with only the option to do what's already been done, which goes against what one of UT's prime draws was.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 12:02 PM   #30
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the sad thing is they probably spend half the time navigating the sprawling maze that is the menu as they do actually playing the game

im guessing sometimes they get lost in the endless ramble of clicking, spend half an hour trying to figure it out, fianlly give up in frustration and then go on the nearest forum and start their bitching again, which may be the reason no one seems to play

atleast, that's my theory
its a good theory as well, i have had UT3 since the day it came out and i have played every "unreal" game ever released, and i still play ut99, 2k4, and ut3. but i have to admit its basically 6 months since the release of ut3, and i am STILL FINDING things that frustrate me or get me pissed off about the UI.

I am not going to start yet another flame thread / post about this topic, but its more than obvious the impact the UI has on everything. yes i know everyone is saying "omg if u dont play cause of the UI ur a nub, look at the game play its self and not the UI" but if people are going round and round in circles in the UI trying to do and or find stuff, spending 15 mins just trying to buddy some of their friends, not being able to add server to there fav any other way than through the server browser (no option in game, no option to add by ip, no ability to edit the ini's to add by ip) having unbelievably bad controls over there visual settings in UI with this 1-5 crap, unless to edit the ini manually, not being able to turn 90% of the crap off in the game such as auto taunts, X-hairs not being centered, no custom X-hairs, gamespy always being down and not being able to play on line because if it...i mean i could go on and on and on about all this ****, but i more than think just a few things i named illustrates this, and unless you are a "die hard" ut fan, any number of these things could turn you off from the game so much that you no longer play it anymore. there are many of the people out there saying "its all about game play, just ignore the UI" but when the UI is so bad, for many people they just cant ignore it, seems like most of the people who can ignore it are the die hard uters, which may be a contributing factor on why online player numbers are so low.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 12:44 PM   #31
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Well I dont see why anyone would use an ingame buddy system to try and setup matches anyways. I mean for 2k4 I added people purely so I could see if they are online not to use it as a chat program, so not much has changed there except for the confirmation which is alittle dodgy unfortunatly. I kinda like it that way though as it protects you somewhat, you dont know which ever random had added you in 2k4 (thats even if you keep the same login). So Im actually a fan of some of this newer stuff.

Custom crosshairs isnt there for a good reason, if you have hidden weapon you have to rely purely on audio to see if the rocket has loaded up. They are animated and made specifically for the weapon now like UC2 was unlike 2k4, so I wouldnt take that as a bad thing. Its just a different way of working to 2k4, I wish some people could wrap their head around that some, its not meant to be 2k4-2 its UT3.

Usually what I do is find the server name my friend calls out on chat in the list and add it to favourites, I dont even bother with the filter options (did these work in 2k4?). Just makes things easier, I guess since where I live there isnt a great deal of low ping servers its easier to find one but hell... There isnt that many servers on the list is there? Or alternatively you can open ip then add via history, sucks somewhat for dynamic ip's but whats typing a few numbers.

Compared to TF2, CS or stuff like that where you have to scroll a mile on steam (wish it would remember my selected game ). I mean from day 1 you could see server admins supported other games much more even if UT3 is harder to setup, so I think there was alittle bias there. Not that it has anything to do with online player counts now really but if you see there isnt many servers are you gonna check back monthy to see if its picked up?

Honestly I found the best method is just to avoid the UI for the most part and spend as little time as you can in there, but ofcoarse you have to be a die hard UT fan to work that out hey

Anyways yeah its a shame we dont have any PC sales numbers then it might put all this talk of player counts to rest, I mean if 250,000 people bought the game for eg and only 300-1000 are online at one time whats that saying? Perhaps the single player is really good, people are too busy modding or maybe the AI is just far better than 2k4's 50%

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Old 25th Apr 2008, 01:01 PM   #32
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Didn't Unreal feature a map in the background ?
Or was that just the demo/attract-mode for the game ?
Yes, the nalicastle flyby map.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 01:11 PM   #33
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Well I dont see why anyone would use an ingame buddy system to try and setup matches anyways. I mean for 2k4 I added people purely so I could see if they are online not to use it as a chat program, so not much has changed there except for the confirmation which is alittle dodgy unfortunatly. I kinda like it that way though as it protects you somewhat, you dont know which ever random had added you in 2k4 (thats even if you keep the same login). So Im actually a fan of some of this newer stuff.
I dont use it for a chat, thats foolish, i only use buddy system for buddies, but when you have been apart of the ut community for a long time such as my self, you run your own clan, and have many many friendly relations with other clans you build up relations with literally hundreds of people. do you have any idea how long it would take me to try to put in just 50-100 people into my buddy list, let along 200+? it would be so absurd it would be like a full time job. with previous ut's it would have taken 15 sec tops, i could just quickly right click add all my friendly clans with wildcard markers such as *t5k* *pub* *0hr* *SD* etc, instead of adding every single person ONE, by ONE, by ONE

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Custom crosshairs isnt there for a good reason, if you have hidden weapon you have to rely purely on audio to see if the rocket has loaded up. They are animated and made specifically for the weapon now like UC2 was unlike 2k4, so I wouldnt take that as a bad thing. Its just a different way of working to 2k4, I wish some people could wrap their head around that some, its not meant to be 2k4-2 its UT3.
that makes NO sense at all, the rocket launchers ability to load up rockets has always been there thought out all UT's, and we have always had the ability to use custom X-hairs. No one has had a problem with it in the past, its not some major issue, where people are so stupid they cant figure out how many rockets are in there gun. Usually by the time people start hiding there weapons or anything for that matter, they usually are veteran ut players by that point, and are more than capable at understanding how the rocket launcher works. I my self not only hide my guns, but i hide my hud as well, and use a dot for my X-hairs, and i dont have a problem at all with understanding how many rockets are in my gun, and how it works. in fact it becomes second nature to most people.


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Usually what I do is find the server name my friend calls out on chat in the list and add it to favourites... There isnt that many servers on the list is there? Or alternatively you can open ip then add via history, sucks somewhat for dynamic ip's but whats typing a few numbers.
nope, that doesn't work, the only way to add to fav is through the server browser list its self. trust me, i have a list of IP's i go to regularly, and when you type in "open serverip" the server will not show up in your history, idk why, but it seems as though the only servers that show up in your history are ones that you join by searching through the server browser. which brings you back to square one as to only being able to add servers to your fav through the browser. in fact, i hate the UI and server browsers so much that i dont even use them anymore, i am using the SKUT3 in mirc.


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Honestly I found the best method is just to avoid the UI for the most part and spend as little time as you can in there
i agree with you 100% there lol
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 01:39 PM   #34
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I dont use it for a chat, thats foolish, i only use buddy system for buddies, but when you have been apart of the ut community for a long time such as my self, you run your own clan, and have many many friendly relations with other clans you build up relations with literally hundreds of people. do you have any idea how long it would take me to try to put in just 50-100 people into my buddy list, let along 200+? it would be so absurd it would be like a full time job. with previous ut's it would have taken 15 sec tops, i could just quickly right click add all my friendly clans with wildcard markers such as *t5k* *pub* *0hr* *SD* etc, instead of adding every single person ONE, by ONE, by ONE
Ahh okay, yeah I can understand that but really there should be better support for clans in that case though. Like assigning a leader or acouple of people to allow people to add clans, you dont want anybody adding you to their list do you? Or clan for that matter, so I get where youre coming from. 100 people on the list though how can you miss a server without someone you know on it?

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that makes NO sense at all, the rocket launchers ability to load up rockets has always been there thought out all UT's, and we have always had the ability to use custom X-hairs. No one has had a problem with it in the past, its not some major issue, where people are so stupid they cant figure out how many rockets are in there gun. Usually by the time people start hiding there weapons or anything for that matter, they usually are veteran ut players by that point, and are more than capable at understanding how the rocket launcher works. I my self not only hide my guns, but i hide my hud as well, and use a dot for my X-hairs, and i dont have a problem at all with understanding how many rockets are in my gun, and how it works. in fact it becomes second nature to most people.
Well ofcoarse, I mean I know based on pure timing myself so I can have the sound off and crosshairs gone and would probably only kill myself with em on lag

It goes to the type of game UT3 is though, its still got alot of customizing options but it isnt create your own game (well unless you mod it ) so I get why Epic went the way they did. Does having a dot crosshairs really affect your aim as much? centered crosshaors probably would but I do like to see a developer try to make a game that people will play how they made it to be played. Customization is all well and good but it goes too far these days, especially for officially run stuff, theres something to be said for adaptability. Like I dont mind the voices are linked to head models for eg, it adds alittle bit of cohesion to a title instead of watering it down which I feel 2k4 had alot of because of the excess of options. Keeping the most important ones is good, actually I think Epic added crosshair center adjustments in the ini

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nope, that doesn't work, the only way to add to fav is through the server browser list its self. trust me, i have a list of IP's i go to regularly, and when you type in "open serverip" the server will not show up in your history, idk why, but it seems as though the only servers that show up in your history are ones that you join by searching through the server browser. which brings you back to square one as to only being able to add servers to your fav through the browser. in fact, i hate the UI and server browsers so much that i dont even use them anymore, i am using the SKUT3 in mirc.
Ahh yeah totally forgot about that bit, epixfizplc but good move. I can see why people dont like it but hell if you dont even use it whats the point in complaining? If you can live without it then its not all bad is it, Ive said I think it could have had more attention and stuff but to hear about it all the time is just getting alittle much.


Also on the topic of UT veterans, I seen some mega pwnage when UT3 got released. I mean Im weary of sticking on a server too long and Im not new to the series, skill gap is still there and is probably greater than ever! For people willing to invest the time you'll get better but damn. I wonder if that goes to online player counts? Oh yes, does every server need to be ranked?

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Old 25th Apr 2008, 02:02 PM   #35
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the sad thing is they probably spend half the time navigating the sprawling maze that is the menu as they do actually playing the game

im guessing sometimes they get lost in the endless ramble of clicking, spend half an hour trying to figure it out, fianlly give up in frustration and then go on the nearest forum and start their bitching again, which may be the reason no one seems to play



atleast, that's my theory
wut? I never spend no more than 5 minutes in the UI. Then I usually for play for half an hour to an hour. I don't know where you get this half thing from.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 02:23 PM   #36
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wut? I never spend no more than 5 minutes in the UI. Then I usually for play for half an hour to an hour. I don't know where you get this half thing from.
Yeah, all my frequent servers are in my favorites list, so that's about 2 mins of UI time and three hours+ of gameplay time.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 04:58 PM   #37
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whats with these epic forum re re's bringing their negative bs here?
seriously while these forums are open to all and the posts will only be closed if things get out of hand there is really no need to drag epic forum bs to bu ... has someone gone out to the net and said "Hey guys if you want to cry go to beyondunreal" ...
If such a person existed i think he/she needs to have a rabid badger shoved down his/her pants
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 06:44 PM   #38
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Didn't Unreal feature a map in the background ?
Or was that just the demo/attract-mode for the game ?
It was basically a demo mode. It must have kept the level up in the background, though, since if you exited the menu the flyby kept going.

In UT, it went away when you entered the menu.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 08:10 PM   #39
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What makes it that way, though?

The Unreal menu was stylistically similar to it, but nobody whined about it being consolified back then.

I do agree that the UI needs a bit of changing, but not because it's consolified, but because it has a poor design flow and less options than previous games expectations were set.
The Unreal menu was normal for that time, PC games of around then and earlier had menu's like that, it was the norm, hence there was no reason to complain.

But alot has happened since then, and that menu would not recive a warm welcome thease days..


The UT2kX menu's are a bit on the verge though, i can see why some have called them conzolized, they do look a bit like the menu's you usually see in console games, but they work differently, they work very well for the PC, and they have all the stuff you expect of PC menu's, and thus, i for one do not considder them consilized.

UT3's however, i do considder consolized, and it is a bunch of things that conspire to give me that impression:

* The way the interface works for one seems very gamepad freindly, and not all that freindly for a mouse, how you select items on the main menu is a prime example.
* There are only few choices on every screen, and in big text, this is usually done in console menu's because it is easy to use on a TV that is farther away, but there is no reason for it on the PC, where it is better to have fewer menu's with more options.
* Lack of advanced features, this is normal on consoles because the games do not need tweaking, but they do on the PC, a pair of sliders is not what we are used to or want.
* Lack of options overall, again normal in many console games, as they often aim at a more casual gamer, and it helps to keep the number of menu's down and make things easier, tweaking thease things with a gamepad can be a pain afterall, but it is not cool on the PC, where it is so easy to have thease things in very few menu's, and easy to tweak them.

And really, all of this is perfectly in tune with the things Epic have admitted, it really does feel like they where in a big hurry, and just took the menu system they had made for the console, and tweaked it as much as they could to make it work on the PC before the game was rushed out the door, and that is what they said happened (though they never outright admitted that the game was rushed, they did admitt it indirectly by admitting that the PC UI was something they had to toss togeather in a hurry before the game went gold).
But none of it is uniform, some menu's seem more affected than others.


Anyway, more on topic here:

Epic has in the past given us excellent support for the past Unreal games, lots of patches, lots of free bonus content, their track record there is well above average!

But this release is nothing like thouse that came before it.. it is the first multi-platform UT title, and it shows, since they have to work on 3 different versions of the game and not just one this time, support has been very slow, hell, they are still working on the Xbox version, that has not even been released yet, so alot of their resources are tied up in that, they are not a very big company.

What that means for the future though, i have no idea, maybe we will still get all the goodies, just slower, maybe the pace will quicken after they release the Xbox version, or maybe there will be less support because its more work now, maybe there will be more things that get released platform exclusive, maybe the fact that they have two flagship titles now (the other beeing Gears of War) means they will produce less for UT this time, who knows? Epic has certainly not told us anything.

So i dont really know what to tell you, outlook uncertain.
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Old 25th Apr 2008, 08:31 PM   #40
Dark Pulse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grobut View Post
But this release is nothing like thouse that came before it.. it is the first multi-platform UT title[...]
Um, what? UT was released on two consoles, don't forget: PS2 and Dreamcast.
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