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Old 10th Feb 2008, 12:35 AM   #41
Sammael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjosz View Post
Play the game and enjoy the custom content people make for it, or uninstall and do something else.
Unreal Grrl already said it better, but really, don't give me a hard time because I don't feel like I got my dollar's worth. Unless the "more cool stuff" Mark Rein is talking about is a refund. He won't be specific.

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Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
I'd be inclined to agree with you if UT3 was in fact low quality.

I'm all for forcing developers to work hard for my money...

If you read my post and not just quoted a single line out of it you'd see my point.

My point wasn't "Roll over and die"... it was "BITCH AT SOMETHING WORTH BITCHING AT!".

Don't like UT3? You don't need to. I do -- I find it on my short list for Game of the Year.

blah blah blah

So in summary:

I haven't had a problem with anything in UT3... apart from the interface... that was Epic's fault.
Yeah, great for you, I'm so happy that you were satisfied. But that's your opinion, don't try to tell me I'm 'inventing things to bitch about' just because I don't share it. Doesn't the fact that I'm posting here instead of playing speak for itself? If it was really so much fun, wouldn't it have grabbed me? Don't assume I haven't given it a chance just because you don't like to hear people disagree with you.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 12:36 AM   #42
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And on another note: what if the best thing in the form of some kind of "mod movement" would be not to boycott the cooking of PC mods for UT3, but instead to continue to mod for ut2k4?
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 12:53 AM   #43
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That is not true at all. If this game had been called something else but released in the same consolized and buggy/unstable state with no little guidance on cooking anything but the simplest of mods for a promised platform people would be saying the same thing. Or have you forgotten about Pariah?
Possibly both wrong, it'd probably have gone unnoticed, people would neither be drooling over it nor complaining about it. It'd just be another bad game that doesn't sell well and nobody cares about.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 05:46 AM   #44
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Well see boycotting PS3 might not be a choice for alot of us and I think thats the major issue here, Im not sure where mappers stand but it seems there could be a 50/50 split on the topic.

See when they said oh you can bring mods over to consoles I thought yeah kewl but if they had mentioned even half of the bull**** and problems involved it wouldnt have sounded so good. I just hope PS3 people realize the amount of work that goes not just into the original creation of a mod (be it map, mut whatever) but also the "extra" time it takes to bring it over to that platform. On top of this I could see potential problems for servers trying to run both PS3 and PC if content is named the same for both platforms especially in regards to things like mutators.

All I hear is developers whining about how difficult PC is to work with because of all the different systems/requirements etc and hyping the console for being so easy to work with. You know what, after an ini tweak or two UT3 runs a steady playable fps on even my aging system so Epic did well in that respect. Let me go onto PS3 and how much of a head**** in comparison it is to get content working on, yeah sure riiight dev's Im gonna believe you now that Ive had first hand experience, you might have all this fixed system crap but its limiting modders. The last thing you want to do is place these types of restrictions on indy type developers, we dont have money only time invested in these projects so thats the only thing lost if an idea doesnt work is that.

Sure it can be a bit of a hit, but we dont have to answer to the people footing the bill. If we keep going with all these restrictions etc we'll end up with a sea of samey titles, oh wait thats already happening, modders are perhaps just a different breed of developer all together!

I like the concept of getting mods out to as many people as possible but whats the cost? If its at the cost of the games success on my preferred platform Id have to say its not worth it. I'll continue to support PC first and foremost myself and then consider PS3 second to that, if my work can be taken over in a decent timeframe I'll consider it (thanks to people like anuban who are working to make things easier in this department ). Im simply not going to waste valueable development time working to these restrictions when I could be using that time to let my creativity go wild on PC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mychaeel

Don't impose arbitrary restrictions on how your mod works. Mutators, for instance, are by design and by default cross-compatible to each other; but of course that doesn't mean that it's impossible for you to create a mutator that won't play well with others (by subclassing PlayerPawn, for instance). If there's an actual need for such a restriction, make it inherently obvious. Otherwise, investing time in coding something a less straightforward way to achieve the same goal while keeping compatibility is time very well spent. An arbitrary restriction mentioned in a FAQ or readme file will just shift people's perception of it from "bug" to "known bug," nothing else.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 06:47 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by El_Muerte_[TDS] View Post
Epic doesn't own your creations.
That is true but there again, Epic don't need to own your creation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UT3 License 14.d
When utilizing any of the online features of the Software, such as posting on message boards, participating in chat rooms, or creating any other content, you will be deemed to have granted Epic and Midway a license for the perpetual, non-exclusive distribution of the information or materials worldwide in any form or forum without charge or liability.
(my emphasis)

It might be badly written boilerplate intended to address posting on Epic forums but the phrase "or creating any other content" could be read to cover maps and mods.

A
Quote:
perpetual, non-exclusive distribution of the information or materials worldwide in any form or forum without charge or liability.
is good enough to allow Epic to take someone's map or mod and convert it to a PS3 format. I have to say that I don't think Epic would ever do that over the objections of the content owner for two reasons, 1/ I think they do respect community content makers and 2/ If they were to take such a step then the PR impact on future community-based content makers would be cataclysmic

Even before the farce of the UT3 release, it was my intention to ensure that no content I produced would be available for the PS3 but that was driven more from a "PC turkeys shouldn't vote for a console Christmas" perspective than with being upset with Epic. In any event, I'm pretty clear that I'm tilting at windmills in taking that position.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 07:42 AM   #46
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When utilizing any of the online features of the Software, such as posting on message boards, participating in chat rooms, or creating any other content, you will be deemed to have granted Epic and Midway a license for the perpetual, non-exclusive distribution of the information or materials worldwide in any form or forum without charge or liability.
That doesn't apply to things created with UT3. Because it's not an "online" feature of the software. It's an offline feature. That clause allows Epic to enable file uploads on their forums, and allows Epic\Midway to use user created content on their official servers.

Also, before they can release your stuff for the PS3 they need to cook it, for that, they actually need your permission. Because that's not distributing.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 07:53 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Muerte
That doesn't apply to things created with UT3. Because it's not an "online" feature of the software. It's an offline feature. That clause allows Epic to enable file uploads on their forums, and allows Epic\Midway to use user created content on their official servers.
I agree that it is ambiguous because the clause looks like boilerplate and isn't wholly applicable to "the software".

However, if you test your map on a remote server (even on a LAN) then you could be deemed to have used an online feature of the software in the creation of the content.

All I am pointing out is that there is some legal risk in the license (because of the ambiguity) for those who wish to restrict the distribution of their content to the PC platform. I am not arguing that Epic will necessarily interpret or intend to use the clause to force the distribution of community generated content to other platforms (indeed, I stated that I thought it unlikely that they would do such a thing over the objections of the content creator).

Quote:
Originally Posted by El_Muerte_[TDS] View Post
Also, before they can release your stuff for the PS3 they need to cook it, for that, they actually need your permission. Because that's not distributing.
"distribution of the information or materials worldwide in any form"

Cooking is covered by "in any form"
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 08:45 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by IronMonkey View Post
I agree that it is ambiguous because the clause looks like boilerplate and isn't wholly applicable to "the software".

However, if you test your map on a remote server (even on a LAN) then you could be deemed to have used an online feature of the software in the creation of the content.
No. Because you didn't _create_ the content while using an online feature. Creating is an important element here.

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Originally Posted by IronMonkey View Post
All I am pointing out is that there is some legal risk in the license (because of the ambiguity) for those who wish to restrict the distribution of their content to the PC platform. I am not arguing that Epic will necessarily interpret or intend to use the clause to force the distribution of community generated content to other platforms (indeed, I stated that I thought it unlikely that they would do such a thing over the objections of the content creator).
No risk. There is nothing in the license that restricts you in the ability to restrict.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMonkey View Post
"distribution of the information or materials worldwide in any form"

Cooking is covered by "in any form"
No it doesn't. Because the process of cooking produces a derivative, and Epic doesn't have the right to create derivatives of your work without prior consent. Distributing in any form means they can distribute it online, or publish it on a DVD, etc. In a windows only installer, or plain archive file. Those are different forms for distribution.

But besides that. The license is void in a lot of countries (including most of Europe). There are various rules a license that to conform to in order to, one of which is that you have to agree to the license _before_ you buy the product. If the content of the license is legally sound is still a different story. Also, a end user license agreement is not a legal contract (that requires active participation of both parties). Which means, it can not take away rights you were granted according to local law. And in this case it's the copyright law (see: berne convention) that gives you copyright over your creation.
It might be different in the US.

The patches are kind of interesting. They show you an (updated) license before installing the patch. I'm not clear about the specifics, but I think (at least in the Netherlands) that license is also void because it involves support for an already bought product.


Anyway, you can take most licenses with a large amount of salt. As long as you don't violate local and international laws there is nothing to be afraid of.s
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 09:03 AM   #49
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Yeah ... lets give Epic even more reason to kill the pc-market.

Next we'll see Epic announce :
= UT 4
= no pc-version
= no free custom content

Talk about a bunch of whining ungrateful kiddies.
There really is no difference when comparing the console- and pc-communities.
Well there is ... the console-kids are willing to pay for content that could have been free.

/me seriously considers hacking & cooking maps and mods to make sure they are playable for PS3
Heck ... with this attitude I really don't see why I would bother releasing anything for free.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 03:16 PM   #50
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Yeah ... lets give Epic even more reason to kill the pc-market.

Next we'll see Epic announce :
= UT 4
= no pc-version
= no free custom content
Epic kill the PC market? Lol, as if Epic make all the PC games, and the market lives or dies on the UT series.

If UT4 follows the standard of quality that UT3 has now set, I don't think PC players would be missing much if Epic decided not to port it to PC.

Besides, they're all hot to go further in custom-content distribution on consoles and the like. Who is going to make all that content?
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 05:31 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Sammael View Post
Yeah, great for you, I'm so happy that you were satisfied. But that's your opinion, don't try to tell me I'm 'inventing things to bitch about' just because I don't share it. Doesn't the fact that I'm posting here instead of playing speak for itself? If it was really so much fun, wouldn't it have grabbed me? Don't assume I haven't given it a chance just because you don't like to hear people disagree with you.
1) You never actually said your complaints with the game yet...
Here are your 8 posts on Beyond Unreal as of time of this message:
Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Post 4
Post 5
Post 6
Post 7
Post 8

You have not mentioned -- in a single one of your posts -- what your complaint with UT3 is. In fact -- you never really had any point in any of your complaints... be it Epic or nVidia (though to be fair, you at least mentioned what you didn't like about nVidia... P.S. -- My 8800GT runs great in UT2k4... not sure if that says anything about your GTX but meh).

How else can I interpret your complaints but invented if you never actually mentioned any reason for complaining... let alone Epic's fault.

2) I'm posting here instead of playing, and I love UT3 -- so... QED.

3) I don't assume you haven't given it a chance because of your disagreeing with me... I assume you haven't given it a chance because you keep spouting off about 2k4. How else can I assume it?

My thought process:

You complain.
You don't say your reason.
You say your love for 2k4.

Logical outcome: Probably gave up after he realized pressing jump in the middle of dodging did nothing.

***

If you wish to explain your complaints -- I'm all ears and am willing to discuss them. If not -- then I can only assume you're just venting because it's UT3 and not UT2k7

Last edited by Phopojijo; 10th Feb 2008 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 06:05 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
1) You never actually said your complaints with the game yet...

***

You have not mentioned -- in a single one of your posts -- what your complaint with UT3 is.
Is this really relevant? there's a huge complaint thread in the stickies field, and people have been posting their complaints, and arguing over them both here and on the Epic boards ever since UT3 hit the shelves, you can't honestly be in the dark about what people find unsatiesfactory about UT3, on either the PC or PS3 platforms, its pretty much the only thing people are talking about with regards to this game..
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 06:09 PM   #53
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what I "have to bitch about", is the console interface, the omission of customizable bots, the very very bad bot AI, and shamleful SP campaign, and all of this is due to only one thing: console implication in this title, and these issues which only bring down UT and make it uncertain that the series will continue, all in the name of the assumption that a title like UT belongs on a console, which is an aberration, are but few of the reasons why I'll support this boycott 100% and will only download and play mods and maps that are PC only.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 06:27 PM   #54
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I just find it funny that PC UT gamers seem to have that false notion that the PS3 version is so perfect or something. There are a lot of bugs with the PS3 version so they are as just as bad shape as we PC gamers are if not worse since Epic has yet to come out with a patch for the PS3. Plus the PS3 has the same shameful campaign and omission of customizable bots and very very bad bot AI so I don't really see how punishing thousands of fellow gamers who have done nothing against any of you modders is the correct thing to do ... Punish Epic by not making ANY content if you must but from a karmic standpoint pushing that negativity off onto folks who have no power over what Epic decides to do, so not making content available to innocent folks caught in the crossfire seems counterproductive imo. And it is funny because when the PS3 folks first starting bugging the hell out of everyone I would have been all for this ... but they really have gotten the message and are not anywhere near as obnoxious as they were just a month ago. And they are appreciative ... many times more appreciative than the PC players ... because there is so much less content available for them already.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 06:28 PM   #55
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Is this really relevant? there's a huge complaint thread in the stickies field, and people have been posting their complaints, and arguing over them both here and on the Epic boards ever since UT3 hit the shelves, you can't honestly be in the dark about what people find unsatiesfactory about UT3, on either the PC or PS3 platforms, its pretty much the only thing people are talking about with regards to this game..
Actually it is relevant... I'm holding the dude to the fact that he has been complaining incessantly without supporting reason. ((I was hoping he would justify himself so we could have an intelligible discussion, rather than just TROLL TROLL TROLL from the sidelines.))

And I do know what people don't like about UT3.

1) Menu System: It's stable... it works; it doesn't have all the features we're used to... nor is it the fastest... and the gamespy server browser is annoying. It's not easy to customize -- but it doesn't crash to desktop and cause errors all around.

2) Game was released too early: I agree -- that was probably political pressure -- but still seriously hurt sales. That's an "oops" -- not negligence -- not ignorance -- nor even malice. They're a small company doing 3 games in 2 years and supporting dozens more from other companies. The point remains -- they still care and are still supporting UT3.

3) Game was released in a crowded market: -- see #2

4) Game doesn't feel like UT2k4: See 5.

5) Game doesn't feel like UT99: See 4.

6) Game crashes randomly: Those are *driver* issues. Upped to 169.28's, solid as a rock.

7) Lack of widescreen support: Things render properly... the issue is FoV control... which is locked for gameplay reasoning.

8) Lack of mod documentation & some things are harder to edit than logical: See #2... they're slowly adding documentation. That really needed to be helped.

9) Custom content download: This game seriously needs some form of content distribution system. I realize maps and mods are getting bigger -- but I expect many noobies won't try out new modded content without being spoonfed it to start them. Even I haven't tried any custom content yet since it would be just too boring to leave the game to install a mod... then jump back in the game.

Repository architecture? Anyone?

10) Gameplay is ****: No game suits everyone... if you don't like the way the game plays -- you don't need to. However, you do not determine what is cool and what sucks.

11) SP campaign is lame: They tried to add it in to *add* value... instead people use it as a focus for their bitching... ironic isn't it?

12) Bots suck: They bots are actually really good -- they just do some stupid things at times because of map and gametype specific issues. They are getting fixed on a per-issue basis.

13) UT is consolized: You could say the PS3 version is PC-ized due to it's inclusion of M/K support, mod support, and fast-paced gameplay... point being?

Annnnnnnnnd that covers just about all the complaints I've heard about UT3. Note how few of them actually matter? Note how most of the rest are getting fixed? Note how little is Epic's problem?

So yes... in closing, relevant.

Last edited by Phopojijo; 10th Feb 2008 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 06:50 PM   #56
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I just find it funny that PC UT gamers seem to have that false notion that the PS3 version is so perfect or something. There are a lot of bugs with the PS3 version so they are as just as bad shape as we PC gamers are if not worse since Epic has yet to come out with a patch for the PS3. Plus the PS3 has the same shameful campaign and omission of customizable bots and very very bad bot AI so I don't really see how punishing thousands of fellow gamers who have done nothing against any of you modders is the correct thing to do ... Punish Epic by not making ANY content if you must but from a karmic standpoint pushing that negativity off onto folks who have no power over what Epic decides to do, so not making content available to innocent folks caught in the crossfire seems counterproductive imo. And it is funny because when the PS3 folks first starting bugging the hell out of everyone I would have been all for this ... but they really have gotten the message and are not anywhere near as obnoxious as they were just a month ago. And they are appreciative ... many times more appreciative than the PC players ... because there is so much less content available for them already.
I'm pretty sure we all know how crappy it is compared to UT3 on the PC... i've found it out from friends who played the demo on their PS3 and said it doesn't play well since the speed is slower by like 15% or something like that, which as it turns out, can really f*** up a game.

I haven't any sympathy for PS3 gamers who play UT3 on the PS3, their not even get a similar experience, if ever the time comes when i finally create a map that gets publically released, i doubt i'll ever have it cooked for the PS3, seems more of a waste of megabytes to give them something that wouldn't really give the same gameplay experience.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 07:35 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Phopojijo View Post
Actually it is relevant... I'm holding the dude to the fact that he has been complaining incessantly without supporting reason. ((I was hoping he would justify himself so we could have an intelligible discussion, rather than just TROLL TROLL TROLL from the sidelines.))
So? Sammael's post history on this board is not really the subject of this thread, nor are his reasons or lack of same for disliking UT3.
It's off topic, and should probably have been aired in the complaint thread instead, or even over PM.

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And I do know what people don't like about UT3.
I can see we won't agree on much here.. but again, this really seems to belong in the complaint thread, so if you want to have an intelligible discussion about it, we can take it there.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 07:56 PM   #58
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Why don't people look at the real reason for not cooking mods/maps for the PS3, mainly that not everyone has or even wants a PS3 to begin with.

It's no secret you need two versions of UT3. The PC for modding and/or mapping and a PS3 for testing them out to see if they work. It's a shame you have to buy two copies of the same game just to mod and be able to play online as well.


And don't go blaming Epic or even Sony for this sad state of PC gaming. Microsoft killed the PC platform with their damn Xbox and crappy Vista...
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 08:09 PM   #59
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Yay the community is almost dead!
This thread is such a great idea!
Basically we just F*** UT3 over some more and accomplish nothing!

Last edited by N1ghtmare; 10th Feb 2008 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 10th Feb 2008, 08:15 PM   #60
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So? Sammael's post history on this board is not really the subject of this thread, nor are his reasons or lack of same for disliking UT3.
It's off topic, and should probably have been aired in the complaint thread instead, or even over PM.
Meh, I disagree. I was using him as an example.

People who simply spout off their mouth without specific issues and specific evidence to prove their issues -- simply spout off their mouth. It happens a lot -- he was the perfect example.

Makes you wonder -- if he doesn't know why he's complaining... how many honestly do?
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