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Old 18th Mar 2008, 01:41 PM   #201
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Aye, but you still have to patch the ****. And, in all honesty, I find just right-clicking and downloading it in steam to be easier than swapping discs and what not.
I live no where close to a decent internet provider so the time it takes to download is usually several hours. I prefer fifteen minutes of disc swapping with a few minutes of updates.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 01:46 PM   #202
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Ah. In that case, you are a filthy whore with a ****ty internet connection. Go kill yourself

/me humps his cable modem
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 02:11 PM   #203
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Ah. In that case, you are a filthy whore with a ****ty internet connection. Go kill yourself

/me humps his cable modem
Your grasp on etiquette is astounding.

Anyways, that's the reason I like bots. Crappy connections, not everyone lives near a city.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 02:19 PM   #204
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I like bots mainly because I don't feel like being called a "gay ****** faggot" every time I join a game. Although, if anyone knows a way to make the bots in CS:S say that, I will worship you.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 02:33 PM   #205
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Bots in TF2 would probably be one of the hardest AI to code correctly from all the games on the market ATM. The spy would be a good example of this.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 02:58 PM   #206
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Not really. Even the spy wouldn't be too hard, if only because the rest of the bots would seem just as awkward.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 03:03 PM   #207
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Is there a new game mode coming for TF2? My buddy was talking about it the other day something about moving a mine cart to one end of the map or something, mode is called Gold Mine or Gold Rush?

Any info on this or just lies and speculation?
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 03:07 PM   #208
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 03:11 PM   #209
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Is there a new game mode coming for TF2? My buddy was talking about it the other day something about moving a mine cart to one end of the map or something, mode is called Gold Mine or Gold Rush?

Any info on this or just lies and speculation?
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/01/23/te...new-game-mode/
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 03:17 PM   #210
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Arrgh! I hate crit rockets!
Ya, every time im playing as Scout comes a Soldier and finishes my streak with a crit rocket
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 03:22 PM   #211
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Learn to dodge, noobs
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 03:33 PM   #212
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 03:33 PM   #213
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Bots in TF2 would probably be one of the hardest AI to code correctly from all the games on the market ATM. The spy would be a good example of this.
If Xan can shoot me in the ass with a chaos black hole gun then a bot can play a spy. It's not as if it really requires complex behavior code, there are clear cut things to do and things not to do as a spy. Of course Valve has been been kind of horrible at AI programming so I guess for now it is out of the question.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 03:47 PM   #214
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You're kidding, right? The spy is nothing *but* a game of psychology. Sure you can act like an enemy team member, but when humans constantly run spy checks on everyone (be it looking out for suspicious behavior or just shooting anyone who runs by), a spy incapable of understanding these... checks... would be outed in a second.

From a research standpoint, recreating a remotely interesting spy is technology that doesn't exist. We don't have the algorithms. We don't have any mathematical models that can organically represent human psychology. It's one thing for bots to recreate combat. It's not just an entirely new ballgame for AI to understand human psychology, but it's practically a non-existent one. What you're asking for is the stuff of science-fiction.

Come to think about it, AI just smart enough to tell if you are a spy or not based on your behavior is already pretty impressive work. It'd be worth at least a dissertation or two.

And oh, unless I've missed something, Valve's AI is traditionally top notch. Half-Life pretty much introduced enemies that wouldn't blindly run around corners but flush you out with a grenade while flanking you. HL2's human enemies were both interesting and capable of putting up a tough fight. CS's bots aren't half bad, either.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 03:56 PM   #215
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If Xan can shoot me in the ass with a chaos black hole gun then a bot can play a spy.
What kind of uber false conclusion is this?
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 04:20 PM   #216
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TF 2 with bots would suck... I used to play CS with bots and boy was that painful... if I made a mistake and got shot in the ass I am out, but the bots keep playing and those retards camp for 30 min + !

Same for TF 2 the bots could technically work but that sense of team work that humans can do will be lost. I would hate it if I had medic bot just uber me each time it was 100% there are times when you save the uber for tactical advantage.

There are plenty of other examples of where bots would fail. Another example I can see bots failing at is control point defense, setting up turrets, dispensers, patrolling pyros, ideal sticky bomb placements from the demoman, medic support, etc.

To many cases to check, but human players if they play as team can cover most of the possible scenarios that can be done in terms of defense and offense. I doubt bots would gather up a couple of heavies and medics for a coordinated uber rush from every possible attack path.

Yeah the spy as bot would be hard, just to many cases that need to be checked and coded that human players instinctively do. I have come across some really sneaky spies that blend in so well. A bot Spy I think will be easy to pick out of a crowd much like the noob spies on some servers. But even the noobs do a better job than any Spy AI would in my opinion.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 04:24 PM   #217
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I always looked at the inclusion of bots as a courtesy. In some games it makes perfect sense and in others (like UT) it's practically mandatory. I don't think TF2 applies to either. I mean it comes bundled as a bonus with a bunch of other SP games for starters, and the game mechanics don't really make for a real necessity for bots.

Still, a bot that was smart enough to out-spy human players....well that's just scary.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 04:56 PM   #218
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What kind of uber false conclusion is this?
Yes let’s just assume it's false shall we? Common, a spy would have to have an AI script unique to the rest of the units in game and sometimes its own pathing but it could be done. Granted it'll never be able to compare to a human but at least it's something when the internet is down. And don't give me that "oh what about turrets?" bull. Sentinels from the UT2k4 mod could easily be controlled by bots. They may not place them in the best positions nor will they go dispenser happy but it's once again something. Also I'm pretty sure finding a heavy is not a very difficult task for an AI Medic nor is activating an uber charge in pre-designated areas. Sure the AI code will take time but if Lucas Arts can make a passable attempt so can Valve.

Seriously, look at Star Wars Battlefront 2. Sure the AI was retarded and online play sucked but the core of what TF2 needs is there. Snipers remained at range and tended to find high ground with lots of visibility, spies remained invisible until time to attack, medics/techs threw health and ammo at you, etc. It would be passable, and that's really all that's needed here.

Lucas Arts made an AI system that could work for TF2, f&!?ing Lucas Arts. They are not the kings of AI. They barely qualify for the Special Olympics of AI. They made sith that ran off ledges and kill themselves because they were trying to attack you thirty feet below. They made TIE Fighter pilots that didn't understand the concept of "someone is shooting at you." It is possible.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 05:38 PM   #219
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Bob, those are at a much more basic level, but yes.

Given enough cpu time, AI 'can' mimick humans well enough to play TF2.
However, it relies strongly on AI "experience", which..

..We have about a few thousand users able to provide it with on a daily basis.
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Old 18th Mar 2008, 05:49 PM   #220
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Bob is definitely over-simplifying it. But I think the industry has made AI seem a lot more complex than it needs to be for one reason: money.

More and more, arena-style games are about competition more than relaxing. Even with UT people generally said to use bots to train and then to play people online for fun and what not. So why waste your time making quality bots? But rather than say "We don't want to waste time and money", propagate the myth that AI is REALLY REALLY complex even in its simplest form (walk around the map, shoot **** if you see it). And then the community itself propagates the myth because it makes it easier for mod teams.

I doubt anyone really expects amazing AI for TF2, but even just AI on par with the CS:S bots would be spectacular. Then again, I love those bots. If I could **** them in the ass, I would.
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