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Old 5th Oct 2005, 09:18 AM   #1
placebo
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The Official UT2k7 Minelayer Thread.

The goddamned thing needs nerfing of some kind, or some kind of increased skill requirement. Being killed by a player leading around eight little aimbots is not my idea of fun or strategy.

I propose:

-Overall less damage (it's practically one hit kill right now)
-Little faint lasers pointing from each mine to the player controlling them, so you know who to kill.
-Six out at a time instead of eight.
-They don't attack empty unmanned vehicles (this is just stupid)
-A bit easier to take out with a minigun or the like.
-Perhaps make them forget about you if you attain a certain distance between you and them.


Thoughts?
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Old 5th Oct 2005, 10:02 AM   #2
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I think all that's needed is that if different player's mined bump into each other; both spiderss blow up - even if they both are on the same team. Dealing with 6 (or is it 8) is doable. Dealing with 12 (or is it 16) is just silly.
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Old 5th Oct 2005, 12:29 PM   #3
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I never have a problem with the mio=ne-layer in ons.. I think it's well suited to the gametype.. and if you are pretty aware, they are easy to dodge/shoot (You do know you can shoot those little guys right?). The only place they really piss me off entirely is in vCTF when like 3 players leave a minefield around the flag. It just wasn't meant for that gametype in my opinion...
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Old 7th Oct 2005, 10:44 AM   #4
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Precicely. And it's the same if 3-4 players have mined an ONS node (but getting the mines to blow themselves up on the node itself does help matters.)

So making it so that if your opponents intermingle their mines; that they attack each other; that would solve it in a very simple way.
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Old 7th Oct 2005, 03:14 PM   #5
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Being that the mine layer is a new weapon to the UT universe I'm sure they will make it ultra weak for UT2007. Just like they did to the UT99 arsenal when bringing it to UT2kx.
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Old 7th Oct 2005, 03:29 PM   #6
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// Thoughts ?
They're not nearly deadly enough to be annoying, unless you're a blind lone wolf in a team-game that doesn't want to know a thing about setting and avoiding ambushes. Minefields aren't something you run through. You take them out from a distance first, thereby giving the enemy the time to solidify their defense.

They're mines for *beeps* sake. If they aren't lethal then there's no point in having them in the game in the first place.

I'd even say players that 'hate' getting killed by mines are the same kind that hate getting shot in the back by snipers and other stealth-tactics on a battlefield. I'd guess you'd wish enemies would announce that they would want to shoot at you as well ?

Having them attack a teammates' mines is the most idiotic idea possible.
The control-method is too imprecise as is.

So NO.
The only possible change for the mines would be a range-limit that makes them explode if the player controlling them is out of rante.
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Old 7th Oct 2005, 04:56 PM   #7
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I like the mines as they are i just dont like the abuse, like people putting them in your spawn areas and people putting them right ontop of teh flag in vCTF. So my suggestion is they should only be mobile in certain places like the areas surrounding your nodes and base. they could still blow up if a player was to step on one but they wouldnt be able to run at a player if they werent placed in an area mentioned above.
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Old 8th Oct 2005, 01:11 AM   #8
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The spawn isssue is annoying, but all that would realy need changing is auto turret code. It would be great if auto turrets that protect spawn points also would shoot and kill mines. As long as you have a good team, things like this can never get too annoying because you all watch out for one another.

I sware UT2007 should come with a manditory tutorial on how to play as a unit and not as rambo. And if you fail to follow what the tutorial tells you, and help your team mates, you shouldn't be allowed to access anything on-line.
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Old 8th Oct 2005, 04:59 AM   #9
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The problem isn't the mines.
The real problem is that (most) people don't want to defend, so the enemy gets plenty of chances to spawncamp and make life miserable for your team.

You don't solve that by nerfing the mines.
You solve that by having your team defend your base & nodes agianst anything (ie : enemies & mines).
As soon as you give the enemy the opportunity to place mines at nodes you use to spawn your reinforcements he's going to do so (if he has a brain that is).

Last edited by JaFO; 8th Oct 2005 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 8th Oct 2005, 01:29 PM   #10
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good point sir, good point.
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Old 9th Oct 2005, 01:37 AM   #11
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Mines aren't powerful enough! They should all burrow underground so they're invisible to the naked eye. When someone walks/drives nearby, they should jump out of the ground about 10 feet into the air then explode with the force of a redeemer. To balance this out, there will be infrared goggles hidden in the levels, but they are actually in disguise and blow up with the force of a redeemer when you put them on.
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Old 9th Oct 2005, 02:35 AM   #12
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your sarcasm sucks......
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Old 9th Oct 2005, 09:04 PM   #13
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I lol'd :P
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Old 9th Oct 2005, 09:33 PM   #14
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I rather of had his real opinion on the subject.
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Old 9th Oct 2005, 10:36 PM   #15
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I want Epic to make a good minelayer.

Make mine AI more exploitable (for the target's advantage) and make 'em camoflauge before activated or something that limits the usefulness of long range hitscan.

Balance the mine damage and movement for close combat.

Make the mines have a long deploy time, so the mine after being layed by the player will be latent for a certain period, forcing the player to not spam spidermines during combat, which is how they're primarly used in ut2k4.

Make spidermines more like MINES that a player has a chance to terminate once their proximity sensors have been tripped instead of an auto-aim lockon grenade launcher.

A player being rewarded for shooting an active and seeking spidermine close combat while dodging around at the same time >> shooting latent mines from a distance with hitscan.

There isn't a need for such an insane trajectory for spidermines. Spiderminelayer should have the weakest trajectory in the game, but instead it has the most powerful effective-trajectory.

Last edited by briach; 9th Oct 2005 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 9th Oct 2005, 10:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaFO
The problem isn't the mines.
The real problem is that (most) people don't want to defend, so the enemy gets plenty of chances to spawncamp and make life miserable for your team.

You don't solve that by nerfing the mines.
You solve that by having your team defend your base & nodes agianst anything (ie : enemies & mines).
As soon as you give the enemy the opportunity to place mines at nodes you use to spawn your reinforcements he's going to do so (if he has a brain that is).
Well, you can't really go around and respond to issues regarding online play with "if people would do this and that then it wouldn't be a problem", because since there will always be a large amount of online players that will continue to disregard objectives and teamplay it really won't get you anywhere.

Personally I'm not all too fond of the spider mines as they are right now. They usually aren't hard to deal with, but in cases where they're used for non-defensive purposes, like spamming chokepoint areas, spawn raping or even in combat, I think they detract from the general gameplay.
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Old 10th Oct 2005, 04:30 AM   #17
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The main problem with spiders is in the mapping. Primeval being a perfect example of a map where there shouldn't be mines.

Maps should never have chokepoints - which I mean as a node that at times in a game that is the only unlocked node a team can attack.

What's worse than a chokepoint is a map with a chokepoint that also has spidermines - which makes things even worse.

I also detest those that attack a base with spidermines; the are going after cheap spawnkills; usually spawnkilling novice players; which at worst can demoralise players and make them want to stop playing.

So mappers should be given floortypes that spidermines get stuck to. That would be a nice addition to ut2007.

I like mines the way they are; but not when used in bases; and not when I'm facing the mines of 3 or more players at the same time - especaially if a map is designed in a way that forces to attack a node which is actively spidermined by multiple players.
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Old 10th Oct 2005, 01:46 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briach
Make the mines have a long deploy time, so the mine after being layed by the player will be latent for a certain period, forcing the player to not spam spidermines during combat, which is how they're primarly used in ut2k4.
Very good idea.

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I rather of had his real opinion on the subject.
How do you know that wasn't my real opinion?
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Old 11th Oct 2005, 07:04 AM   #19
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yeah i would like to see the "shoot" time in between mines increased, to more along the lines of maybe the avril...but slightly less. cause the way its set up right now say take prime for instance, if you have 3-4 peeps runnin into the middle spamin mines, the mine gun layes them so fast that within 10 sec you have a good 20 mines out there in the middle, which imo is utterly rediculous and yes u can shoot them, but u can only kill a few if you have 10+ mines chasing you, you might as well not even try lol. but if they increased the time to slightly less then an avril or something, then mines could still be effective without them being spamed all over the place.
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Old 11th Oct 2005, 01:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majik-
Well, you can't really go around and respond to issues regarding online play with "if people would do this and that then it wouldn't be a problem", because since there will always be a large amount of online players that will continue to disregard objectives and teamplay it really won't get you anywhere.
Nerfing a weapon just because players can't handle the teamplay it requires isn't the answer either.
I'd rather have the game force more teamplay and make lone-wolfing more lethal / less rewarding.
I've dealt with mines and similar weapons (like turrets) in TFC and Unreal Fortress and even though people tended to mine the flags and chokepoints they never caused the problems you claim exist.

I'd agree that the mines need some tweaking and adjustment, but that's more because the average UT2kx-player and mapper isn't used to dealing with mines and their effects.

The majority of the mine-problems are map-specific issues (major chokepoints + lots of mines available = problem) and thus can be solved as such by looking at the location of the minelayer(s) in relation to the (possible) chokepoints in the game.

In this regard it is like the powerups, sniperrifles, rocketlaunchers, superweapons and similar "dangerous" and/or spammy weapons & items : treat it with respect, don't just place it in a map 'cause you happen to like it.

Quote:
Personally I'm not all too fond of the spider mines as they are right now. They usually aren't hard to deal with, but in cases where they're used for non-defensive purposes, like spamming chokepoint areas, spawn raping or even in combat, I think they detract from the general gameplay.
Forcing players to use them as defense-only weapons is just another way of ensuring the weapon won't be used as few players have the patience to play defense (as noted by the spawn-camping 'problem').

I'd suggest you read how mines are used in 'real' combat.
They are used to create chokepoints where no natural barriers exist.
If there's a location that the enemy shouldn't reach then you mine the heck out of that area. The only reason they're not used offensively is because they don't discriminate between friend and foe.

Perhaps that's the best "fix" for the mines as they are :
as soon as the (controlling)player is out of range (or switches weapons) the mines go 'neutral' and attack *anyone* including the 'node' or other assets they're supposed to be protecting.
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