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Old 10th May 2005, 09:28 PM   #1
MANIFOLD
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UT-nerfed

Quote:
Epic aims to correct the steep learning curve seen in UT2003/4, making the game enjoyable for newbies and veteran players alike, hence the ability to use your stats to find similarly-skilled opponents
wtf? The fact that they see this as something that needs to be corrected is all that needs to be known. Epic believes (wrongly) that the learning curve has something to do with the size of the ut2k4 community.

Here's my version of the facts:

1)They did zip for advertising the game. See the unreal championship commercials on tv? how many did you see for ut2k4?

2)Too many mods from the start, fracturing the community more than it already was. And btw, Onslaught is the noob mod, and thats not being elitist it's just true. Don't be insulted if you love Onslaught just recognize the fact that you don't want a challenge and/or you're the kind of person who gives up when you get owned.

3)They allowed Nvidia/ID to get CPL to drop UT2k4 from the event in favor of (OF ALL THINGS) Doom3 multiplayer. I'm convinced that they could have done something about this but they didn't care.

4)They don't care about the people who have been true to this franchize thru all 3 versions. If they did, the quote above wouldn't be there.

5)If they were actually *involved* in our community it *would* be bigger, but they're not. They leave it to us to provide our own anti-cheats, our own ladders, etc. When was the last time someone from Epic popped into one of our irc channels and asked us what we think? We're there EVERY DAY playing this game, that should count for something. We're the ones who rent servers, rent TS servers, form clans, get on ladders...(You ppl who basically play Onslaught for a couple hours on Saturday, yet post in this forum like you're part of "the community"; puleeze).

My Opinions:

I seriously believe that there are people in this forum who think that adjusting your mouse sense or fov to improve your aim is just too much trouble.

Dumb down the dodging? Dodging IS UT. There are plenty of people in our (ctf,dm,tdm) community that are willing to help you learn this game if you don't quit cause you got fragged too many times.

I don't think I'm alone when I say that I won't be buying this game if the learning curve or the movements are substantially changed. The fact that I could play this game everyday for a year and still be on that learning curve is what makes the game fun. It's not elitist to think that way; it comes from having a genuinely competitive spirit. That means that when you're down 18-0 and theres one minute left you still play full-tilt.

Thx
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Old 10th May 2005, 09:46 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MANIFOLD
I don't think I'm alone when I say that I won't be buying this game if the learning curve or the movements are substantially changed. The fact that I could play this game everyday for a year and still be on that learning curve is what makes the game fun. It's not elitist to think that way; it comes from having a genuinely competitive spirit. That means that when you're down 18-0 and theres one minute left you still play full-tilt.

Thx
MANI

I'm with you, all the way
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Old 10th May 2005, 09:57 PM   #3
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I don't think it's going to be less complex than UT99. The official claim, of course, is that it'll be somewhere in between UT99 and UT2k4. We'll see.

If it's simpler than UT99 I'm outta here... I doubt it will be, though.
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Old 10th May 2005, 10:05 PM   #4
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The way I see it ... if "pro" or "hardcore" players don't like the rules, a CPL-certified rule-changing mod will fix that in a month or two after release. I believe such a mod exists for UT2003/4 but I forget the name but it's like the OSP and ProMode mods for Quake 3.
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Old 10th May 2005, 10:14 PM   #5
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PC games are never advertised on TV, besides those special gaming channels(G4/TechTV)... I've never even seen a Half-Life 2 commercial.
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Old 10th May 2005, 10:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MANIFOLD
1)They did zip for advertising the game. See the unreal championship commercials on tv? how many did you see for ut2k4?
How many commercials do you see for PC games, ever? *EDIT* Twisted Metal beat me to it.


As for the rest of your post, it's nothing but your opinion and conjecture. Telling onslaught and weekend players that they're not part of the community is asinine. Way more people play this game offline than online.

Oh, and if you think toning down the dodging will make this game less competative, try playing Quake 3 at a high level, where there is no dodging, and then come tell me you don't think it's competative.
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Old 10th May 2005, 10:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MANIFOLD
1)They did zip for advertising the game. See the unreal championship commercials on tv? how many did you see for ut2k4?
Console games have a different target group, namely mainstream consumers.

Quote:
2)Too many mods from the start, fracturing the community more than it already was. And btw, Onslaught is the noob mod, and thats not being elitist it's just true. Don't be insulted if you love Onslaught just recognize the fact that you don't want a challenge and/or you're the kind of person who gives up when you get owned.
I'll agree that the amount of gametypes have thinned out the amount of active players in each gametype and I'll agree that onslaught sorta is the 'noob' gametype, even though I personally like it, but did it ever occur to you that some players like to play casually? I'll bet many of them shy away from the basic gametypes to avoid being harrassed by arrogant elitist players (judging by this post, like you).

Quote:
3)They allowed Nvidia/ID to get CPL to drop UT2k4 from the event in favor of (OF ALL THINGS) Doom3 multiplayer. I'm convinced that they could have done something about this but they didn't care.
I hope and believe that Epic are more concerned about the casual players than the pro community. I was glad to see it scrapped by the CPL.

Quote:
4)They don't care about the people who have been true to this franchize thru all 3 versions. If they did, the quote above wouldn't be there.
I think you're dead wrong about this one, I think that those are the people they're trying to PLEASE... hence the promises to revert to gameplay more reminiscent of UT99 (don't kill me NeoNite).

Quote:
(You ppl who basically play Onslaught for a couple hours on Saturday, yet post in this forum like you're part of "the community"; puleeze).
They may not be part of the elitist pro community, but they have just as much right to be called part of this community as the next guy/girl, face it. In fact, the casual players (online AND offline) by far outweighs the pro community.

With that said I think they should do their best to please/attract as many players as possible while still retaining the identity of UT (preferably 99 over 2kx, imo), but you'll have to face that the majority happens to be casual players and you seem to complety fail to see it from their POV.
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Old 10th May 2005, 11:10 PM   #8
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I'll bet many of them shy away from the basic gametypes to avoid being harrassed by arrogant elitist players (judging by this post, like you).
I posted this because 1)I saw a lot of posts in this forum applauding Epics decision to narrow the gap between beginner and veteran and 2)damn near everytime someone has the opposite opinion he gets accused of being elitist. Like you just did me, even though I tried to qualify my statements as *not* elitist. If you knew me you'd know that I go to some trouble to get the new players in the demo servers to come back, and absolutely never say anything to make them feel bad.

Also, I preface my statements with the words "my version" and "opinion". Please take those words at face value.

Finally, you think I don't know that the number of casual players far outweigh the number of hardcore players? That's why I'm posting this. Because from what I'm reading in interviews with Epic and on this forum, it seems like our voice either doesn't count or when we speak up we get called "elitist". I'm here to say that our level of dedication to this game is on a higher level and for that our opinion should matter.

This matters because we're already down to less than 30 clans in CTF. If the new version takes half and the other half hates it and stays with 2k4, then neither will have enough to sustain competition and that'll be the end of us. Excuse me for not wanting that to happen.

Last edited by MANIFOLD; 10th May 2005 at 11:23 PM. Reason: Oh Yeah, This matters because...
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Old 10th May 2005, 11:21 PM   #9
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If implying that onslaught-only players don't have any say in this community isn't elitist then I don't know what is. And don't be a hypocrite, you yourself stereotyped onslaught players.

Edit: And I do respect your opinion and you elaborating it, but please do so without the attitude.

Last edited by Majik; 10th May 2005 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 10th May 2005, 11:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majik-
If implying that onslaught-only players don't have any say in this community isn't elitist then I don't know what is. And don't be a hypocrite, you yourself stereotyped onslaught players.

Edit: And I do respect your opinion and you elaborating it, but please do so without the attitude.
The point is that *only* the Onslaught players, due to them being the majority, seem to have a say. And I'm not being a hypocrite; is it impossible to reconsile a)thinking that ons is a noob mod cause that's where all the *new players* gravitate and b)tired of being called elitist because I like what everyone else seems to hate about this game?

What attitude?
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Old 10th May 2005, 11:50 PM   #11
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The attitude toward 'noobs'...*sigh* nevermind, it's a pointless discussion anyway.

Alright, I'll admit I shouldn't have implied that you are an elitist as that detracts from discussion at hand and the point I was trying to make, but it does bother me when people use that stereotype towards onslaught and those who play it. Likewise in your situation though IMHO, as it will possibly distance yourself from other posters when you're trying to start a discussion.

I just like the idea that the learning curve will be easier for new players to grasp and I hope it results in seeing them across ALL gametypes more frequently, it is only for the good of the game.
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Old 11th May 2005, 02:30 AM   #12
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Well, I have played competitively since the demo days in UT, and I argee that Epic could do a better job at supporting the competitive community. But I also believe that the main reason for the small community is the steep learning curve.

UT had 2 distinct advantages for new players in comparison to UT2003/UT2004:
1. Less advanced movements makes the game easier to learn.
2. Stronger weapons makes most new players able to get a frag or two.

With UT2003, the game become much harder due to the advanced movements, and while learning the game the weaker weapons made it hard to feel useful. In other word, UT2003 had a long period during which new players felt pretty useless and frustrated.

/Kronon
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Old 11th May 2005, 03:23 AM   #13
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blah blah blah...

I've been playing since Unreal. I edit maps, I love the online community when it comes to learning the editor, and getting feedback on my work I put into mapping.
I pretty much loathe the community when it comes to learning to play more "pro" or "leet". I pretty much rock anyone who plays me in person, and nearly all of the people who show up at MassiveLAN. ('cept these 2 guys there, they whupped my ass..)

anywho,.. to my point,.. How in the bloody hell can anyone see a "problem" with the game having built in skill balancing system of any sort?? I've been hoping for something like this forever!

I'd love to get an idea of who I'm going to go up against! It'd have to very complex in how it gauges people though,.. maybe something like Tekken5's system where you acquire points/awards of somekind, but get lesser ones for challenging lesser foes?

I don't know about any of you, but I'd constantly be setting my personal bar a bit higher then my "Player Current Skill Level". But not sacrificing myself to some elitist, keybinding,.. ninja-skill-having-never-get-hit-punk-kid-who-doesn't-even-have-a-job-and-plays-all-day-and-night-type.

lol, Not really targeting anyone there, just that's how some of us older guys who work in RL and have families feel after we pour money into being able to play this game. It can be extremely frustrating, and I've actually seen 4 of my best friends simply stop playing Unreal games at all because of this crap.

I can honestly say, if there's no way to get some kind of skill balancing into Unreal 2007, I'll not bother playing it online.

Anyone who has a real problem with this, you're probably just pissed 'cause it'll be harder for you to hunt around for obvious "noob servers" and pop in to up your presonal stats.
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Old 11th May 2005, 05:35 AM   #14
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30 clans, where did you find them?

What we're angling at is that there needs to be more support towards the newstart gamers. Most of us here are competetive and can deal with growing to the game, learning and adjusting, but the other 90% of the PAYING CUSTOMERS won't bother. They'll jot off onto something else and enjoy that more.

Between matchmaking, skill ranking and toning down some of the (admittedly fun) movements and upping the training within the game there should be a much better community to delve into.

Having such a niche community at the moment is not healthy for anything, and when people mouth on about how people should 'just get better and stop whining' then that makes it worse. Who the hell would want to play with those kind of people? Not me.
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Old 11th May 2005, 05:53 AM   #15
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Manifold, I don't want to comment too much on your attitutude towards ONS players as I think, that despite your attempts to say you're not being elitist, it is just tedious for players of one gametype to criticise players of another.
If you played ONS at 3v3 or 6v6 clan level you'd see that it is an incredible competitive gametype, where DM fragging skills are every bit as important as vehicle skills...At a pub level yes, it has many newer players and there is no coherent teamplay...but at a higher level on closed servers and clan ladders it is certainly not full of players who "don't want a challange and give up when they get owned". To state that illustrates a considerable level of ignorance of the gametype.

ONS is here and it's here to stay. Get over it.

Autopsy makes a good point that I can fully agree with. Many of us have busy lives. I work full time, do lots of stuff in my free time, and have an active social life. However, I usually manage to play UT2k4 every day, even if only for half an hour, I participate in my clan, play matches, post on these forums most days and also my clans....but I still consider myself to be a casual gamer, I'm certainly no-where near pro.
Yet I've played this game almost every day for over a year, it's the ONLY game I play. I played the original UT as well, so why shouldn't I have an opinion about the next UT? Why shouldn't I call myself part of the community.

You state it yourself but seem unaware of the meaning of what you say. That is, the pro-community is very small and for Epic to try to aim their game at them would mean a tiny target market and pretty poor sales. While UT2k4 sold better than 2k3, it has still lost A LOT of players compared to what UT used to have. There are fewer players who stuck with the series than who ditched it when 2k3 came out, and Epic has aknowledged that to continue the same path they were treading would inevitably mean an even smaller player base. You yourself admitted this when you said that there are now only 30 CTF clans. Do you think that this number would increase if the new game was designed to appeal to the same players? Of course not.

Epic has to get new players in. And flattening the learning curve is a good step. You seem to believe that flattening the learning curve means that the game will be simpler, but I don't think it has to be like that. Getting newer players in means making it easier to get a few kills and not being owned 20-0 or whatever. At the moment this game is too much about dodging and not enough about killing. If changing the movement (for example making the movement faster but removing double dodge jumping, at the same time as increasing projectile speed) means that new players get more kills, then they will more likely stay and work to get better at the game (and maybe eventually increase the number of CTF clans).

Of course, this also means that the pro players may have to put up with occasionally getting fragged by a n00b.....and tbh if a pro player can't accept a game where he can be extremely skilled, win most matches and yet still occasionally get fragged by a new player, meaning his score is 20-5 instead of 20-0....well then I don't believe the community needs players like that and their loss will be no bad thing.
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Old 11th May 2005, 06:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majik-

I think you're dead wrong about this one, I think that those are the people they're trying to PLEASE... hence the promises to revert to gameplay more reminiscent of UT99 (don't kill me NeoNite).


Nah, don't worry about it. I hate the name, but I have a good sense of humour ;O)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spineblaze
Oh, and if you think toning down the dodging will make this game less competative, try playing Quake 3 at a high level, where there is no dodging, and then come tell me you don't think it's competative.
But you can't compare Quake3 to any unreal game, right. It's so different.
You don't NEED dodging, because you already have (althoug it wasn't the intention of the developers) the strafejumping etc.. and the falling damage is almost non-excistent. Depends, you can take some damage if you fall from say.. irl.. 2 meters (metric system bastiche here), but the most you'll ever lose is 10 for crying out loud! You'd have to be down to 10 health to die from taking a huge fall.

I've always liked that about Quake3.
The game is a lot faster paced than UT. <- Guess which game I'm referring to now ;p

It feels like as if you're walking on air, most of the times...imho. Been playing this game for a good 6 years now (since the tests).

Edit: OH oh oh oh oh an' ah almos fergot!!! I biiiin playen unreal gaems since 1900 and 99 !!! OMGLOLWTFUTURNEAL99 ;p ;-)


It doesn't need dodging to be competitive. Q3 is a very competitive game, especially when you play the CPMA mod I bet. Well duh ;-)

(But that's no news to you, eh Spineblaze :O)...)

Merely talking about UT-Q3 here, UT2K3/4 are a lot faster paced than good old ut eh.
But dodging is inherent to the UT games.


(Although I wouldn't mind a Q3 mod which would implement dodging. And if you want to talk to me about the "unreal arena" mod...It never really worked out I guess)
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Old 11th May 2005, 07:22 AM   #17
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OMG, this sounds bad, I hope they are not going the Valve way. Example:

CS was fun, and was l33t. They wanted to make it accasible for noobs and now its a crappy game.

Please Epic, dont let this happen to you're game. A learning curve is what makes games fun.

Why create a game you can finish in 1 second? because playing all day to reach the end of the game is to hard?
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Old 11th May 2005, 07:35 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MANIFOLD
wtf? The fact that they see this as something that needs to be corrected is all that needs to be known. Epic believes (wrongly) that the learning curve has something to do with the size of the ut2k4 community.

Here's my version of the facts:

1)They did zip for advertising the game. See the unreal championship commercials on tv? how many did you see for ut2k4?

2)Too many mods from the start, fracturing the community more than it already was. And btw, Onslaught is the noob mod, and thats not being elitist it's just true. Don't be insulted if you love Onslaught just recognize the fact that you don't want a challenge and/or you're the kind of person who gives up when you get owned.

3)They allowed Nvidia/ID to get CPL to drop UT2k4 from the event in favor of (OF ALL THINGS) Doom3 multiplayer. I'm convinced that they could have done something about this but they didn't care.

4)They don't care about the people who have been true to this franchize thru all 3 versions. If they did, the quote above wouldn't be there.

5)If they were actually *involved* in our community it *would* be bigger, but they're not. They leave it to us to provide our own anti-cheats, our own ladders, etc. When was the last time someone from Epic popped into one of our irc channels and asked us what we think? We're there EVERY DAY playing this game, that should count for something. We're the ones who rent servers, rent TS servers, form clans, get on ladders...(You ppl who basically play Onslaught for a couple hours on Saturday, yet post in this forum like you're part of "the community"; puleeze).

My Opinions:

I seriously believe that there are people in this forum who think that adjusting your mouse sense or fov to improve your aim is just too much trouble.

Dumb down the dodging? Dodging IS UT. There are plenty of people in our (ctf,dm,tdm) community that are willing to help you learn this game if you don't quit cause you got fragged too many times.

I don't think I'm alone when I say that I won't be buying this game if the learning curve or the movements are substantially changed. The fact that I could play this game everyday for a year and still be on that learning curve is what makes the game fun. It's not elitist to think that way; it comes from having a genuinely competitive spirit. That means that when you're down 18-0 and theres one minute left you still play full-tilt.

Thx
MANI

1.) How many adverts did you see for counterstrike? None, oh.. well there's that arguement shot down.

2.) Get out. You're one of those muppets that dimly believes that because they've got an ego and love to game to bits that they're 'professional' gamers.. no, you're a jobless no hoper who's knocking an inbuilt part of the game just because you don't like it.

3.) They ALLOWED? I think you'll find that Epic have very little influence over the CPL team.

4.) What? UT99 owned. Ut2k3 was a flop and UT2k4 pulled it back. And now, because the team is heading in a direction that you don't necessarily like, they're being unloyal to the fans? Again. GET OUT.

5.) Er, many of the Epic/DE team are registered on these forums.
And we have members pop into the #bu irc channel and the #ut channel from time to time, so basically, it's your fault for hanging out in the wrong channels.
As for the community developing Anti-Cheats and Epic doing squat... HA.. you have NO clue.

"We're there EVERY DAY playing this game, that should count for something." Yes it does, You need to get a job, a life and a girlfriend. No one plays the same game every single day unless they're a.) totally bored or b.) getting paid a metric tonne to do it. And you ain't B.

"You ppl who basically play Onslaught for a couple hours on Saturday, yet post in this forum like you're part of "the community"; puleeze"

Right. Now you've stepped in it. You come here, to a community that's respected by Epic and DE and start acting the high and mighty like you truly know what's best for the ENTIRE community. News flash: You know ****. Nothing, Nadda. You're a fleck in the ocean of life. If you died right now, only your family would cry, no one else would blink. Harsh? Maybe. True? Absolutely. You're sitting there knocking people for playing a gametype that you dislike. Wtf, you're the God of UT now yeah? You're the only all powerful deity that's going to smack down those heathen onslaught fans...

No no no. You sir a NOTHING AT ALL. If Epic did read this thread, They'd read it throughly, from beginning to end looking for anything that might improve their game, but seeing as you've post NOTHING that would help them with that, they'd end up saying the exact same thing i'm about to say...

GET THE **** OUT OF THIS FSCKING COMMUNITY.
You obviously dislike this site and it's community (yes, just because some people play onslaught here, doesn't mean we're not a community. We've probably been around longer than you have pal. We've been supporting this game since Unreal not just UT.), so, leave. Bye, and I won't be missing you.
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Old 11th May 2005, 07:54 AM   #19
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Hm.

The reason I posted here is because every thread on this forum where I see someone defending the present in-game movements or the steep learning curve he gets flamed. I mentioned onslaught specificaly because its from there that I hear the most accusations of elitism and arrogance.

I can well differentiate between the ons pubs and the ons competitive ladders. That doesn't change the fact that most "noobs" gravitate toward that mod and never leave it. That's the truth; stating so shouldn't offend anyone.

The players who can't "put up with" getting fragged occasionally by a newbie are seriously in the minority and usually are shunned by all of us in all the gametypes aren't they? I/we *like* that it takes a long time to learn this game. That's it. There's no hidden arrogance behind that statement, just that. If you'll notice my number of posts, I registered on this forum specifically for this, because of similar threads elsewhere in this forum where basically if you think that the double dodge jump is one of the best parts of this game you're an elitist jerk. Yes, I'm annoyed at that.

I don't care that onslaught is here to stay...I only care that Epic is going to dumb down the movement in the next version. The Epic "preview" mentions that the developers read these forums so I'm here to let them know how I feel about it. Clearly they've already heard you and are listening to you. *We're* the ones who aren't being heard, not you. Two people have replied to this thread with comments on whether or not Onslaught is part of the community and deserves a say in this matter. Please stop it. I didn't make that distinction in my original post, I made a distinction between the people who are in irc, on the ladders, everyday, and the people who play onslaught for a couple hours on Saturday. I consider the first group to be part of the ut community and the second group to be part of this forum.

The skill level matching is a great idea for making the game more accessible. Why does it need to go beyond that? Most everyone I play with realizes that we need divisions to make the game more enjoyable for newbies, we want that, but we dont' have the skills/time/resources to put that together. Epic is saying that they will make that easier to accomplish and I think thats great. But the movement is not a "problem" that needs to be "corrected". It's the funnest part of this game. I disagree with the notion that ut99 was a bigger community because it had simpler movement. It was bigger because it was new. There's a lot more to choose from now, and I think that our staying here thru 3 versions should count for something even if we don't represent the bulk of the sales.

Thanks

MANI
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Old 11th May 2005, 08:04 AM   #20
Renegade Retard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeperShade
5.) Er, many of the Epic/DE team are registered on these forums.
And we have members pop into the #bu irc channel and the #ut channel from time to time, so basically, it's your fault for hanging out in the wrong channels.
As for the community developing Anti-Cheats and Epic doing squat... HA.. you have NO clue.
This may be a first, but I actually agree with Deepsy. There are many, many people from Epic, DE, etc who read these very forums. Some even post from time to time. You'd be quite surprised. They are VERY conscious of the opinions of the community, and try their best to appease them.

Again, how many other companies provide free bonus packs and such?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MANIFOLD
I can well differentiate between the ons pubs and the ons competitive ladders. That doesn't change the fact that most "noobs" gravitate toward that mod and never leave it. That's the truth; stating so shouldn't offend anyone.
I think your point of view may be skewed a little. New players gravitate toward ONS because it is the "new, cool thing." Face it, some people get tired of DM and CTF in every came that comes out. They want something new. When UT2004 came out, there wasn't really anything like ONS, so everyone wanted to play it. It's just not the newbies that play either. I know of several veteran players who have left CTF or TDM to play ONS.

To hint that ONS doesn't take much skill must result from a lack of exposure to the gametype. ONS takes a lot of skill if played correctly, and it perhaps demands the most teamwork of any gametype when playing the game properly (NOTE: I am NOT a regular ONS player. I'm a CTF ladder player).

Last edited by Renegade Retard; 11th May 2005 at 08:15 AM.
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