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Old 27th Apr 2005, 02:18 PM   #1
ArcadiaVincennes
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Recent comments in maps I recently reviewed

I still find myself compelled to respond to maps that end up in my personal queue. I know I would want the same attention paid to them if I was an author requesting a review.

DM-Cake - Requested by someone who was not the author so I hope you could tell I didn't spend much time on the review.

DM-SOP-Bedrooms - This was requested by the actual author so I obliged him with an honest review.

The other two maps scored above a 3 which in my opinion is not a crap map but merely a bad map that mappers can learn some 'what not to do' things from.

I personally refuse to review maps that are only 7.0 and up just for the amusement of the NaliCity regulars. Reviewing maps in the 3 - 7 range is just as valid as reviewing maps 7.0 + especially in terms of an author requesting a review. Part of NaliCity reviews is not only pointing out what's f'ing great to the community, but it's also about helping new or improving mappers how to map better. So that maybe their maps become the next 7.0 or up map.

Another point, is that I'm here to review both as a community service and also to help my own mapping skills. The more maps I review, the more I play, the more I see what works and what doesn't. The more inspiration I get in terms of theme and layout.
Hopefully, the people populating this site who also map get the same thing out of my reviews.

I am the most active reviewer here at the moment. If I post 12 reviews a month, and 3 of them are of high quality, and another reviewer posts 3 reviews a month, and they're of high quality, then I don't see a problem having 9 more reviews of mediocre to bad quality.

I have no control of what lands in my request bin and I pay attention to all of it. I'm sure there are people out there who respect that.

I am going to adhere to what I signed up to do when I signed up as a reviewer:

I will continue to pay attention to my personal review queue.
I am not going to review only 7.0+ maps.
I am not going to deny authors of mediocre maps their right to a review.
I am not going to ignore maps that were submitted more than 1 year ago.
I will write very brief reviews for maps that come from my request queue, are awful, and are requested by someone other than the author.
I will write honest reviews for maps that come from my request queue, are awful, and are requested by that map's author.

Please enjoy my reviews.
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Old 27th Apr 2005, 02:39 PM   #2
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Well crap, I should have requested you instead of "Any".
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Old 27th Apr 2005, 03:46 PM   #3
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You are correct, reviewing is about all types of maps, not just the good ones. How hard it may be, ignore those people
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Old 27th Apr 2005, 04:30 PM   #4
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Redfist comments on those 2 maps and a couple of other ones removed btw
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Old 27th Apr 2005, 05:28 PM   #5
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I do plan on ignoring such things in the future but I wanted to state my position on it before I did so.

I wasn't asking for the comments to be removed... He is entitled to his own opinion and is also entitled to voice it. But perhaps the forums are a better place to do that than in the map comments section.
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Old 27th Apr 2005, 05:33 PM   #6
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If the mods took it upon themselves to remove (obvious) trolling and flamebait from the review page, I personally wouldn't cry about it. We don't put up with it at Insite, but we don't get nearly the traffic you do.
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Old 27th Apr 2005, 06:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcadiaVincennes
I do plan on ignoring such things in the future but I wanted to state my position on it before I did so.

I wasn't asking for the comments to be removed... He is entitled to his own opinion and is also entitled to voice it. But perhaps the forums are a better place to do that than in the map comments section.
If the comments aren't aimed at the map there is every reason for them to be posted elsewhere (the forums). Honestly there are plenty of comments against plenty of maps that are not about the map but just individuals flaming, revenge posting and/or pimping themselves.

If you start removing one person's comment because they don't go to commenting specifically on the maps it appears to be a bit unfair to let other people get away with it.

I don't know what the specific comments are or how relevent they are to the particular maps you are talking about but where is the line drawn (apart from vulgar and abusive language which is a pretty obvious argument for removal).

Yes, people should be allowed to express their opinions but, as I've said before, as soon as you post a negative opinion on someone's map you (a lot of the time) become the object of flaming; simply because you did not agree with the other person or persons.

This form of mobbing behaviour is really not healthy; apart from everything else it (possibly) does not allow others to get a range of opinions on the map before they decide to download.

As to these specific map(s) you're talking about, I don't know what the circumstances are; except for Cake which got a screenshot posted for its troubles.

Last edited by Manticore; 27th Apr 2005 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 27th Apr 2005, 06:12 PM   #8
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(4.5) CTF-MineWars
(3.0) CTF-{SoP}-Bedrooms2K4
(4.0) DM-AGiantBedroom-2k3
(2.5) DM-Cake

These four maps all got essentially the same comment worded slightly differently. The comment, paraphrased, was "Another spot in the review queue wasted on this map"

Or something quite similar. All posted right after each other.

I didn't want to single the poster out or have his posts removed or anything like that - I wanted to make a point about how I review once and for all without pointing any fingers other than the allusion to what prompted me to do so.

I agree with you that it's difficult to draw the line other than obvious examples like you pointed out. However, these were done all in a row, right after each other, and basically said the same thing. What it said was obtusely directed at the map but, I think more obviously, directed at the choice of review.

I leave the rest to you.
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Old 27th Apr 2005, 06:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcadiaVincennes
(4.5) CTF-MineWars
(3.0) CTF-{SoP}-Bedrooms2K4
(4.0) DM-AGiantBedroom-2k3
(2.5) DM-Cake

These four maps all got essentially the same comment worded slightly differently. The comment, paraphrased, was "Another spot in the review queue wasted on this map"

Or something quite similar. All posted right after each other.

I didn't want to single the poster out or have his posts removed or anything like that - I wanted to make a point about how I review once and for all without pointing any fingers other than the allusion to what prompted me to do so.

I agree with you that it's difficult to draw the line other than obvious examples like you pointed out. However, these were done all in a row, right after each other, and basically said the same thing. What it said was obtusely directed at the map but, I think more obviously, directed at the choice of review.

I leave the rest to you.
I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you; particularly if the comments aren't specific to the map.

I suppose NC could have a button against the maps comments page for reporting bad posts for determination by an admin. as to their relevance (or in some commentor's cases, in the past, abject vulgarity) or their appropriateness.

Another option would be the abiltiy for an admin. to move the comment into the forums and thread it; sending an automatic email notification to the commentor such as:

"Your comment on DM-***** was not relevant to the map and has been removed to NC's "Review Comments" thread. Please follow the link and comment there if you wish to continue discussions along this line."

Unfortunately neither of these ideas appears technically possible I, would assume, as the forums and the map comments are two completely seperate logins; two seperate systems. But I wouldn't know for sure, I only post here.........

It would appear to be a fact of life around here that reviewers do get a hard time from users when it comes to choice of maps and/or the outcome of a review. There's nothing new there, it's been going on for years....

I suppose it comes down to that old saying, you can't please all of the people all of the time.........

Last edited by Manticore; 27th Apr 2005 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 27th Apr 2005, 09:37 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manticore
It would appear to be a fact of life around here that reviewers do get a hard time from users when it comes to choice of maps and/or the outcome of a review. There's nothing new there, it's been going on for years....

I suppose it comes down to that old saying, you can't please all of the people all of the time.........
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come across as disagreeing with you. Quite the contrary.

At any rate, I like you idea of the button but as you said, I'm not sure how 'do-able' it is.

As for reviewers getting a hard time... obviouslty I'm experienceing this for the first time. I basically wanted to state my position that I have little choice in what I review by using my personal review queue and I am making a concious decision to have little choice in what I review by following my review queue. I also wanted to post how I get the maps I review and how I address them on these forums so that if this issue comes up in the future, all I have to do is point to this post and be done with it.

And your last sentence especially rings true. Well quoted.
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Old 27th Apr 2005, 10:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcadiaVincennes
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come across as disagreeing with you. Quite the contrary.
I didn't think there was disagreement. Many people (and I don't mean in this thread) don't debate but just flame so people naturally get (or at least sound) defensive..... including me. So perhaps what I stated was influenced by that.

Back to the issue. If people did bring there views into the forums with regard to reviews etc., it may be good but then it depends on stating things in a reasonable way rather than just having another dull and tedious flamewar. At least in the forums if some troll really bugs you there's always the ignore list....

Unfortunately flaming seems to be too easy, but they aren't actually proving a point. Just showing they have no point.

Anyway... carry on with the reviewing.

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Old 27th Apr 2005, 11:25 PM   #12
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Arc..............""""I personally refuse to review maps that are only 7.0 and up just for the amusement of the NaliCity regulars. Reviewing maps in the 3 - 7 range is just as valid as reviewing maps 7.0 + especially in terms of an author requesting a review. Part of NaliCity reviews is not only pointing out what's f'ing great to the community, but it's also about helping new or improving mappers how to map better. So that maybe their maps become the next 7.0 or up map."""""

Lets just say 5% of strange funky maps to 95% better ones,or lets say 3 out of 10 max.and it should be done for the nalicity amusment of regular viewers.
These viewers are ones who tell the other ones ,who tell the sever people and so on,it should have better maps in that list.

And I am not against seeing the funky map reviews,but it's your job to find in the dusty corners of nalicity and find the jewel of a map. hehe

plus I guess nalicity just needs more reviewers around to do more,so many maps,maps for days.

The thing is,is there are 5 or 6 really good maps out around right now,and people want to see what a review of it ,on what it's like. ,along with the authors, without having to click on anything.
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Old 28th Apr 2005, 03:44 AM   #13
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You have a point that good map deserve reviews but in the end the point of reviews is universal and shouldnt be limited to just good maps. A few more high rated reviews wouldnt hurt but there should always be low scored ones too

Anyway, there is a difference between posting rather off topic comments and posting off topic comments that are off topic AND do something else. In this case slamming the reviewer and the work he put it. Plus there was a whole (mini) flood of the same comments, not just one. Thats where I draw the line.

Same guy that was banned from BU last month and who sends people hatemails just posted a whole row of 1/10 revenge comments, Im going to have have fun
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Old 28th Apr 2005, 08:01 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReD_Fist
These viewers are ones who tell the other ones ,who tell the sever people and so on,it should have better maps in that list.
I agree that this happens and that it's a great side effect from reviews. I'm really glad people do this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ReD_Fist
And I am not against seeing the funky map reviews,but it's your job to find in the dusty corners of nalicity and find the jewel of a map
You and I have a difference in opinion on what my job description here is. If Nali City had more reviewers, perhaps I could take the liberty of hunting through NaliCity's map repository. But until we have an overall review queue of 10 to 20, I

regard my job here more as giving people reviews of what they request, because otherwise an author can, and has, gone years without his request being fulfilled.

I would be thrilled to treat the review queue and the map repository in general how you suggest - searching for jewels.

Considering other reviewers here do their reviews closer to this method than I do, then I don't see what the problem is with 1 reviewer doing it according to his concience.

My concience dictates the following:
I have a personal review queue. I must address these be they good or bad.
I have emptied my personal review queue, there are 600 other requests in the general review queue. I feel I need to address these other requests before I hunt for jewels. Authors request reviews with no idea as to when it will happen. I feel bad for people who have been waiting for over a year.

I decided to start at the oldest requests and work my way up. If we came to a point where all the requests were addressed, then I would feel justified looking for jewels and presenting them to you.

I honestly wish all the reviewers worked like this because I think it's the fairest way, in terms of the authors, to deal with the requests. But I realize everyone here works differently and I would not force this on anyone.

Since all the other reviewers treat the requests differently than me, I see no problem with 1 reviewer doing it this way.

To sum it up, I don't consider my job here to only present the jewels of the community. I consider my job here is to react to requests for a review and to do it in a fair manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReD_Fist
Lets just say 5% of strange funky maps to 95% better ones
You're asking me to concentrate 95% of my reviews on good maps and 5% on 'funky' maps I will ignore this. Why? it's unfair to the authors making the requests and because 95% of the maps are of 'funky' quality - between 0 and 7 - and only 5% are 7+.

Take 600 requests and divide them into 95% and 5% - you get 570 and 30. You're asking me to review the 30 best maps of the 600 requests, and review 5% of of the remaining 570, which comes to 29. You're asking me to throw out 541 map review requests - just because they're not very good.

HELL NO. That just is not fair.

Even if we adjust the numbers to 75%/25% or even 50%/50%, I would still be unwilling to do this.

If the admins, reviewers, and other community members have a problem with how I address my reviews, I will ask for input and adjust my method to suit the majority for I am here to serve all of you and to learn about mapping as I do it. As long as it is just you, or a minority, I will continue to review according to common courtesy afforded to the authors' requests.

If the queue was less than 20, I would take your request more seriously. Until then, enjoy my upcoming reviews of many maps that will score somewhere between 0 and 9.
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Old 28th Apr 2005, 10:49 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourences
You have a point that good map deserve reviews but in the end the point of reviews is universal and shouldnt be limited to just good maps. A few more high rated reviews wouldnt hurt but there should always be low scored ones too

Anyway, there is a difference between posting rather off topic comments and posting off topic comments that are off topic AND do something else. In this case slamming the reviewer and the work he put it. Plus there was a whole (mini) flood of the same comments, not just one. Thats where I draw the line.

Same guy that was banned from BU last month and who sends people hatemails just posted a whole row of 1/10 revenge comments, Im going to have have fun

Lets put it this way,this i the second go around of funky maps in a row while there is so many good ones around,that people really want to know how they are.

Also I would leave out 100% of ut2003 reviews,that game is out of the picture,even more than "unreal"

And if anyone thinks I'm "bashing" the reviewer,I only placed those comments there because of the ...string... of funky mappage.

Also it seems he is the ONLY one doing reviews,he's got a lot of credit for that for sure.and sure enough that dm-cake ended up on maprader and probably other sites,because they take those maps from that column.

I just feel that column is reserved for quality maps,and again,the users can comment on the others.
That slot for me acts as a place for prestige mappage it is a "review".
Think about it,people who have spent mega hours and years hoening there skills for unrealEd,then they pop up an awsome map,then they see whats in the list,and say "WTF my map is way better than those" so thats why I say that slot holds prestige,NOT just the pro mappers we know of or totlay awsome maps all the time,a mix is good.
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Old 28th Apr 2005, 11:28 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourences
You have a point that good map deserve reviews but in the end the point of reviews is universal and shouldnt be limited to just good maps. A few more high rated reviews wouldnt hurt but there should always be low scored ones too
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReD_Fist
I just feel that column is reserved for quality maps,and again,the users can comment on the others.
That slot for me acts as a place for prestige mappage it is a "review".
Think about it,people who have spent mega hours and years hoening there skills for unrealEd,then they pop up an awsome map,then they see whats in the list,and say "WTF my map is way better than those" so thats why I say that slot holds prestige,NOT just the pro mappers we know of or totlay awsome maps all the time,a mix is good.
Usually I temper my comments with less direct, more polite, more 'diplomatic' verbage. But all I can say is, you are wrong.

The review list at the top of Nali is just a list of recent reviews. It is not meant as a prestige list, or list for only awesome maps. That's what the hotlist on the left hand side is for and I hope you've noticed that only maps scoring 5 or 6 or better get posted there.
Reviews are done not only to point out good/great maps to the community, but also to help mappers hone their skills and to help them develop. Without this community critiquing, we'd have less mappers developing to the point where they create high quality maps. And, taking this to the extreme, all we'd be doing is reviewing great map after great map by the same people because they're the only ones who know how to create good maps because no one's telling the mediorce mappers how to improve.

Red_Fist. I suggest you look more to the hotlist and not to the recent review list because you will continue to be dissappointed. Neither I nor Hourences are able to change your mind on this issue, nor do you seem to be responsive to what we are saying. IMO, you just keep repeating your point, worded differently, that the reviews should only be done on exceptional maps. With the slight bad map thrown in.

Unless the other community regulars, admins, and reviewers start agreeing with you, I am not going to change how I review.

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Enjoy the hotlist.
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Old 28th Apr 2005, 03:00 PM   #17
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Very true indeed... Most people will take the critism and improve upon their skills. If you think it is a waisted review, do not read it, or even look at it... and certainly show respect for the reviewer. Without reviewers, you would not know what to improve or continue practicing. I know Hourences does not have the time to filter what maps get reviewed on this site, nor is Arcadia goig to overlook someone in need.

And, yes, if you want a list of good maps the Hotlist is the place too look. I also feel that people are entitled to opinions, not bashing (not pointing anyone out, so if you argue this point you are guilty )
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Old 28th Apr 2005, 05:15 PM   #18
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Reviewers can only do what they do. It's a bit hard to tell if a map is going to be good or bad until it's played; except for the one's that have telling screenshots.

What I find a total waste is user comments like:

"The screenshots look great..."

"I haven't downloaded this but I thought....."

"I don't have UT99/UT2K3/UT2K4 but......."

Or the usual string of: "I don't like these types of maps why don't you go away" comments.

If anything it's useless user comments like this that should be removed as they say nothing about the map and don't at least show the mapper enough respect to play the map (even if they end up having a bad opinion of the map).

...and then there are the comments who start commenting on the reviews but the commentor hasn't played the map and therefore don't have a clue as to why the reviewer has rated the map they way they did.

Where does it all end?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hourences
Same guy that was banned from BU last month and who sends people hatemails just posted a whole row of 1/10 revenge comments, Im going to have have fun
I'm sorry I missed those before they got removed..... not.

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Old 28th Apr 2005, 06:43 PM   #19
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I'm just going to state the very obvious here, as it seems to be overlooked. A review is NOT for prestige mappage, the grade labeled on a review is. If it's a 2, it's a 2, and if it's an 8, it's an 8.
Maybe this is a bad analogy, but Redfist, compare reviewing maps to the way you can treat people. Because 1 person is taller/richer/prettier than the other doesn't mean that that person should be treated better.
Mapraider doesn't have a personal review queue (though I'm actively lobbying for it), so my reviews usually ARE of maps that score above average, but that aside, I really think that ArcadiaVincennes, Hourences and Manticore are right, works from a respected mapper like Hourences shouldn't be prioritized for a review than someone's first cuby little map. Boiling it down to a simple sentence and a universal rule:

Everyone is equal.
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Old 28th Apr 2005, 10:30 PM   #20
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Well they can do what they will,but it's a waste of HOMEPAGE of a site wich has REVIEWERS.
And if that list were to go through faster there would also be no issue,hell look how long that Mr.prophet one has been in that list.
Shheeez.
Well you all do whatever,just pointing out it is rediculas to review gorky maps..............
And the other thing,I dont read them,nor download them,nor give a rats a__ if they got a review,but it soaks up that column making nalicity look dorky.

Oh and the hotlist,more like a cold list,it says updated 03/03/05 allmost 2 months old,anyway,you can lead a horse to water,but you can't make them drink.
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