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Old 17th Mar 2005, 04:49 PM   #1
waXed
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Whatever floats your boat.....

Afternoon BUFíers!

Iím a long time UTíer and general forum lurker. Occasionally Iíll post (My name was LPRO in 2k3) when something piques my interest, especially when it involves this game Iím a slave to.

Iíve participated in a few FragBUís since 2k3 days to play some CTF and other game types with a great bunch of people. Your forums are a refreshing change from the constant flame fests found on other UT based sites.

Over the past year or so I have seen numerous discussions (sometimes heated flame filled arguments) about how the game should be played. These topics range from the typical brightskins, hitsounds, forcemodel and other .ini related tweaks to the more recent spawn grenades mutator for TDM.

These issues will probably never been settled. Someone somewhere will have a problem and the fight is on once again. Everything becomes polarized as sides are taken and at the end of the day everyone mistrusts or looks down on everyone else. More competitive players are thinking ďFoolish noobs donít have a clue!Ē and casual players are like ďThose pro players are messiní up the game again! Without their uber hax they would stink!Ē Of course this is a sweeping generalization, but does echo true on many fronts.

As an organized TDM player I prefer to have the game customized for that style of play. For me that means - LOS hitsounds, consistent team skins and colors, easy modification of server settings, auto demo and screenshot settings, and recently UTCompís new net code to equalize pings. Most of the competitive community would generally agree, hence UTComp is mandated for most tournaments or ladders. When I play for fun on stock servers these things arenít necessary so models appear as they should, no hitsounds are used, etc. I do not require or think that every server should be setup as I like it or every tournament should be run the same way. It depends on who the target player base is and what the objectives for that tourney are.

The designers made various decisions on the game to maximize the fan base and to (I hope) provide an enjoyable gaming experience. This is reflected in the wide selection of game types and stock mutators you can use. Creating a game that specifically caters to organized play wasnít high on Epicís list of design objectives IMO so the community creates or decides what settings should be used to best meet the needs of the players.

Getting tired yet? Something that gets missed in all of this is where we are all coming from. We each have a different idea and level of commitment to this game. Some of us love the fast paced action of CTF, others the vehicular combat of ONS or just raw fragging on some random DM public server. Another level adds organized play on various ladders, leagues or tournaments such as TWL, GGL, OLB, or your local BU tourney. Each has different goals and caters to players of different skill levels and commitment to the game.

What Iím driving at here is we all have different expectations and backgrounds. If you enjoy LG Insta-gib CTF, high details, with no special tweaks, go for it but please think about where your fellow players might be coming from and why they use or play the settings they do. Iím not directing this at anyone in particular itís just been on my mind lately and this is the best place for good discussion without it turning into a mud slinging fest!
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Old 17th Mar 2005, 05:16 PM   #2
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I agree. :]
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Old 17th Mar 2005, 05:25 PM   #3
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I think that where I disagree is that Epic has little/no interest in organized gaming. I think they do.

The reason I believe that is because of the DYNAMIC of the game. I often have MORE fun playing on public servers that have none of the "flair" that competitive servers have, even though I feel like I'm getting wasted by so-called "noobs". Why? Because I am playing the game out-of-box, which is ultimately the game I fell in love with in the first place.

I don't like competitive mutators, or super-comp arena style gametypes. What I enjoy is the adrenaline-pumping, fast action gameplay the game gives you off of a CLEAN install, no mutators running, I guess you could say Virgin UT2k4. In a way, I feel that the mutators that change specifics related to gameplay (brightskins and hitsounds, mostly) RUINS the feel of the game for me. It becomes one of those BB gun games at the amusement park where you have to hit the moving ducks, all about aim and nothing about "fun". You certainly wouldn't find me playing that at the amusement park for more than a few minutes, which is how I get when I play on UTcomp servers. Bored...and ultimately, I don't play this game to get bored.
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Old 17th Mar 2005, 05:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Brizz
I dislike brightskins and mutators. Virgin UT2004 is what I enjoy playing. I think certain community competition mutators are boring.
I disagree, but I respect your opinion. :]
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Old 17th Mar 2005, 05:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Brizz
I think that where I disagree is that Epic has little/no interest in organized gaming. I think they do.
To a degree yes, but I don't believe it was a primary focus for them. Simple options could have been included to demonstate this such as the Epic brighter skins or some sort of a voting system for gametype/settings/time limits/player load to offer clans something right from the initial release. Perhaps something was intended but decided against for one reason or another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Brizz
The reason I believe that is because of the DYNAMIC of the game. I often have MORE fun playing on public servers that have none of the "flair" that competitive servers have, even though I feel like I'm getting wasted by so-called "noobs". Why? Because I am playing the game out-of-box, which is ultimately the game I fell in love with in the first place.

I don't like competitive mutators, or super-comp arena style gametypes. What I enjoy is the adrenaline-pumping, fast action gameplay the game gives you off of a CLEAN install, no mutators running, I guess you could say Virgin UT2k4. In a way, I feel that the mutators that change specifics related to gameplay (brightskins and hitsounds, mostly) RUINS the feel of the game for me. It becomes one of those BB gun games at the amusement park where you have to hit the moving ducks, all about aim and nothing about "fun". You certainly wouldn't find me playing that at the amusement park for more than a few minutes, which is how I get when I play on UTcomp servers. Bored...and ultimately, I don't play this game to get bored.
Well said, the settings you like offer the most enjoyment for yourself and hence you continue to play. I play with different settings for different reasons and have blast in the process. Yes, hitscan is very powerful but I haven't reached the point where I look at the other guns and think "why bother?" It's all situational for me, especially with weapon switching and combinations.

Just in case someone misunderstands my original post I in no way feel that someone who runs regular settings means a player has no skill, and I have the scars to prove it.
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Old 17th Mar 2005, 05:52 PM   #6
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Nice post, dude.
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Old 17th Mar 2005, 06:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waXed
To a degree yes, but I don't believe it was a primary focus for them. Simple options could have been included to demonstate this such as the Epic brighter skins or some sort of a voting system for gametype/settings/time limits/player load to offer clans something right from the initial release. Perhaps something was intended but decided against for one reason or another.
It was probably more a matter of what specifically the competetive community would want versus development time on those features.

I'm assuming since MapVote was so strikingly popular in UT2k3, they figured it would be ported quickly if people wanted that extreme of functionality. It wasn't, and IMO UT2Vote wasn't as good.
Quote:
Well said, the settings you like offer the most enjoyment for yourself and hence you continue to play. I play with different settings for different reasons and have blast in the process. Yes, hitscan is very powerful but I haven't reached the point where I look at the other guns and think "why bother?" It's all situational for me, especially with weapon switching and combinations.

Just in case someone misunderstands my original post I in no way feel that someone who runs regular settings means a player has no skill, and I have the scars to prove it.
Yah, it's all my opinion. I just like the game "How it's meant to be played" (tm) I guess. Part of why I loved the old FragBUs so much.

I've got to get off reminiscing. Perfect things are done away
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Old 17th Mar 2005, 06:21 PM   #8
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Very nice article* I agree with you 100%


* IMO threads generally either pose a question for a problem, to gather some opinions or just to start a discussion. You give a profound analysis. Therefore, I see it as an article rather than a thread.
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Old 17th Mar 2005, 08:00 PM   #9
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Improper usage.

I just think, other then ruining the feel of the game (to which the concept of preserving, I am in 100% agreement with Brizz) they basically limit what skills you need to focus on, and simplify what skills need to be honed by competative players. The idea of that seems ironic and silly to me.

Mostly just visual acuity, but that is huge. Half the battle in using hit-scan weapons (which are undenialbey more efficient then other weapons in this game), is aquireing a target. Glow skins takes that away and makes it point and click. Keeping track of your enemy's health, which is a huge deal when weapon selecting, is also made effortless by pitch modified hitsounds. It's another visual acuity skill, because the game gives you all the hit cues you need to approximate how much damage you've done. You don't need the hitsounds, but they do simplify it for you.

In retrospect, I feel everytime I play on a comp server now, I'm stripped of those skills. It's also silly to me that the most skilled of our player base, is so set on having them, and only the "best of the best" get known for not using them. It puts a really weird plateau in a skill progression chart. One that caters to a specific style of play, that has become believed what Deathmatch is about. It's making me hate deathmatch.

I agree with the concept to which you speak, but I just feel that if I did want to compete, then I'd be stuck dealing with that, and changing my play style to accomodate it. Which is silly since my play style is based upon my options as the game was out of the box.
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Old 18th Mar 2005, 09:28 AM   #10
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Hey LPRO, haven't seen you in a while. Nice post, and glad to see that you're around.
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Old 18th Mar 2005, 11:32 AM   #11
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I just wanna say when I throw my opiuons out there and join in on these discussions, that's me and my opinion, doesn't make it right or wrong, just the way I feel about the given situation. People are different and they always will be. It's nice to see a thread like this as opposed to garbage posts like mr moto's that we had to endure not too long ago, haha.

Anyways... I could use ini hax and brightskins and whatever, but to me it's much more gratifying ot take someone's head off without it. It's even more gratifying when I find out that person WAS using such thing.

I'm not the best player in the world.. I get schooled by most BuF's, but when I do get my hits in.. damn they feel good. hehe.

I shall stop rambling now as it's time for my medication and the men in white coats are coming down the hall...
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Old 18th Mar 2005, 11:34 AM   #12
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Couldn't it be argued that Epic changed the way the game was originally played? I don't recall having a problem seeing players in UT the way that I do in UT2004. They didn't look like miniscule camouflaged ants with big guns.

Maybe it's just me.

I see why people hate the pro settings and I see why some people want to use them. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle.
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Old 18th Mar 2005, 11:44 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hal
Couldn't it be argued that Epic changed the way the game was originally played? I don't recall having a problem seeing players in UT the way that I do in UT2004. They didn't look like miniscule camouflaged ants with big guns.
Do remember that the whole dynamic of the game changed.

I agree that the models are too small, it bugs the crap out of me. I like that Player Scale mutator that T2A released a while back because it makes you large enough to see without really ruining the feel of the levels (I didn't seem to get stuck on static meshes any more than usual).
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Old 18th Mar 2005, 11:52 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir_Brizz
I like that Player Scale mutator that T2A released a while back because it makes you large enough to see without really ruining the feel of the levels (I didn't seem to get stuck on static meshes any more than usual).
I forgot all about that thing... I attached whatever files I had in my System folder that had the name in it if anyone wants to try it out. Hopefully it works.

[edit]It does work, and it unexpectedly makes headshots easier, so it's more like UT all around save for the UT2004 jumps. In a DM to 50 on Grendelkeep I managed about 10 headshots where I'd usually get 2 or 3. That may be because people are easier to hit at a distance though.

PS: Why doesn't UTComp keep track of headshots? It keeps track of everything else... [/edit]
Attached Files
File Type: zip T2APlayerScale.zip (1.7 KB, 34 views)

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Old 18th Mar 2005, 12:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -AEnubis-
...Keeping track of your enemy's health, which is a huge deal when weapon selecting, is also made effortless by pitch modified hitsounds.
I agree. If you need hitsounds to know how much damage you did, (or if you hit them at all) you're a newbie, not a pro.

Personally, I prefer to play on Standard servers whenever possible. However, I also enjoy playing in organized scrims, which means I have to play with UTComp a lot. Not that mind terribly, I just prefer standard ones.

IMO, play what you like to play. If you can't stand UTComp, simply don't play on those servers. Especially don't play there and then complain about it while you play, I hate that the worst. Just STFU and play.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hal
I see why people hate the pro settings and I see why some people want to use them. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle.
Me too.
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Old 18th Mar 2005, 02:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -AEnubis-
.....they basically limit what skills you need to focus on, and simplify what skills need to be honed by competative players. The idea of that seems ironic and silly to me.

Mostly just visual acuity, but that is huge. Half the battle in using hit-scan weapons (which are undenialbey more efficient then other weapons in this game), is aquireing a target. Glow skins takes that away and makes it point and click. Keeping track of your enemy's health, which is a huge deal when weapon selecting, is also made effortless by pitch modified hitsounds. It's another visual acuity skill, because the game gives you all the hit cues you need to approximate how much damage you've done. You don't need the hitsounds, but they do simplify it for you.

In retrospect, I feel everytime I play on a comp server now, I'm stripped of those skills. It's also silly to me that the most skilled of our player base, is so set on having them, and only the "best of the best" get known for not using them. It puts a really weird plateau in a skill progression chart. One that caters to a specific style of play, that has become believed what Deathmatch is about. It's making me hate deathmatch.
Yes, the hitsounds reduce the need for learning that skill, although I would say anyone who's played this game for any length of time knows how much damage they have done from experience and the visual cues provided like you said. I actually don't use the modified tones, just the standard hit/miss sounds. Honestly I really canít see it making that much of a difference in the end outcome, it just removes any ambiguity.

The brightskins debate has been hashed out before and I see why it's such a hot topic. For me, it's equivalent to team jerseys for any real life sport. They just even the playing field by making everybody the same both model and color. I never have any doubts about whoís on my team and whoís not....yet somehow Iím still a master team killer. They do help in finding targets but the base skill of aiming and scoring that hit is still more important.

In the end, UTComp and it's various features don't make a player, but rather facilitates and improves organized TDM. You still need to understand all the weapons, maps, and use effective voice communication. All it gives me is that equal footing for all so my team can focus on these other important skills.

Definitely agreed though it does alter the original feel and look of the game.

PS - Hullo DaBeatard, Spiney and Scum!
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Old 18th Mar 2005, 03:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waXed
PS - Hullo DaBeatard, Spiney and Scum!
<3
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Old 18th Mar 2005, 04:28 PM   #18
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Nice post Waxed.


I guess the thing about UTComp is not that it changes the game in huge ways, although some are large, or that you can't turn them off. I think the thing about UTComp is just that it changes the server atmosphere and the game feel in and of the way the game is meant to be played. In a normal server I feel like its all in good fun and I'm jsut there to enjoy the game. But on a UTcomp server the mutator fufills its job very well - it changes it so that the game is all about competition ans seeing who is the most 1337. Not my cup of tea.
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Old 18th Mar 2005, 05:43 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyMek
Nice post Waxed.


I guess the thing about UTComp is not that it changes the game in huge ways, although some are large, or that you can't turn them off. I think the thing about UTComp is just that it changes the server atmosphere and the game feel in and of the way the game is meant to be played. In a normal server I feel like its all in good fun and I'm jsut there to enjoy the game. But on a UTcomp server the mutator fufills its job very well - it changes it so that the game is all about competition ans seeing who is the most 1337. Not my cup of tea.
Good analogy! Kinda like any other game or sport. You can play a friendly game of 3v3 shirts vs. skins basketball at the local schoolyard or move the game into a more organized setting with regulation size courts, referees and coaches. If your having fun it doesn't matter!
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Old 18th Mar 2005, 08:52 PM   #20
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I agree people should play what they like, and UTComp I can take or leave. But those who use it should also admit to themselves they're not playing official UT2004, but a user variant.
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