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Old 11th Apr 2000, 02:05 AM   #1
Zaccix
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There is one thing that no new version of Zeroping can fix, and that's the attitude of some people who use it. I'm talking about those who, when playing on a ZP server, exclusively use the Sniper Rifle as if using ZP means that the server is suddenly a Sniper Arena.

Case in point: CTF-November. On this level, you have an ASMD, Rocket Launcher, Flak Cannon, BioRifle, Minigun and Ripper as well as the Sniper Rifle. On a ZP server running November, I can always find RL and Flak ammo (which in a way suits me because I use those weapons the most) but never any Rifle ammo. Why? Because everyone is running around with their new-found freedom to snipe LAN-style.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with sniping at all. It's just that it gets very, very tiresome when everyone's just using the same weapon and sniping left, right and centre. I know of some people who won't jump on to a ZP server if it's not running a map with a rifle on it.

All I'm asking is that, from now on, people remember that map authors put more than one weapon on a map for a reason - so that the map doesn't get boring.



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Old 11th Apr 2000, 02:23 AM   #2
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Waldo: It's up to the Infiltration team to incorporate client-side hitscan in their mod. Zeroping works by replacing weapons with zp equivalents, so to make it work with other mod others' weapons I'd have to specifically rewrite their code. I plan to release a cleaned-up and heavily commented version of Accugib, so that other UnrealScript programmers can see client-side hitscan in action, and add it to their own stuff if they choose.

Zaccix: You're right -- people snipe too damn much on zp servers. The situation's gotten better since the days after the Alpha, and I hope people will continue to tire of spawn kills. Truth is, the sniper rifle's probably just too powerful in team games, when lag isn't there to tame it. I think players would be sniping just as much if Sprint gave everyone in the world free T1's overnight. See the Gameplay section of my FAQ for a little more on weapon balance: http://zeroping.home.att.net/faq.html#gameplay

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[This message has been edited by Jibe (edited 04-11-2000).]
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Old 11th Apr 2000, 03:37 AM   #3
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I've just posted the Beta version of Zeroping at http://zeroping.home.att.net . With this release, Zeroping no longer bends the rules of physics, allows players to benefit from their own lag, or makes Unreal Tournament easier to hack. This version really shows off the full potential of client-side hitscan.

I've also written a Zeroping faq: http://zeroping.home.att.net/faq.html

As always, you can find Zeroping servers by looking for the "zp|" tag. Incidentally, the zp alpha had an incompatibility with UT 413 that prevented the "zp|" from showing up on 413 servers. I've fixed this in the Beta, and as admins upgrade, zp servers will become easier to find.

Here's a complete list of changes since the Alpha release:

- Can't get hit AFTER ducking behind a corner
- Can't run around killing people while lagged
- Fixed shots that hit, but seem to miss
- Fixed shots that miss, but seem to hit
- Added commands to enable/disable ZP on your own weapons
- Fixed Instagib rifle sometimes failing to fire
- Can't kill the same person twice in a row with double headshots
- Encrypted net traffic to prevent proxy hacks
- Optimized net traffic to reduce bandwidth use
- Fixed double "zp|" bug
- Fixed bug that prevented "zp|" from showing up with UT 413
- Fixed double flash on shock rifle
- Removed annoying Zeroping message

Still to come:

- Stronger encryption
- Support for rapid-fire weapons
- Adaptive thresholds

I'm going to sleep for about thirty hours stright, but when I'm able to sit upright again I'll be back here to answer questions, respond to objections, and endure flames. So that we don't swamp the forum again, please check my FAQ to make sure I haven't already addressed your question there.

I'd like to thank Riff ( http://instagibserver.homepage.com ) and the guys at The Gate ( http://www.gamejoker.com/gate ) for letting me test the Beta on their servers, and for running some of the best games around.

Now, you can be sure you're using the Beta version if you autodownload Zeroping_v100 and see a message on login that says "Zeroping Beta -- version 1.00" with my url. How do you like the Beta's gameplay? I'm most interested in hearing from people who hated the quirks of the Alpha.

Thanks,

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Old 11th Apr 2000, 04:16 AM   #4
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Funky.
I'll try it out tonight in the Eurolounge =)


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Old 11th Apr 2000, 11:05 AM   #5
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Jibe: Got a question about 0ping.

You say now if you duck behind a corner, you won't get hit, but what about you see your opponent, hit the strafe key twice (dodge)?

if it takes 300ms to dodge, and your opponent has a ping of 400, you'll still get hit, right?

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Old 11th Apr 2000, 11:08 AM   #6
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0ping will just never work. It's been tried, and decided long ago that client side determination doesn't work.


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Old 11th Apr 2000, 11:19 AM   #7
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I'm certainly willing to give it a shot. CHRYSt, try to be a little open minded. [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif[/img]

I mean, it was decided for thousands of years that man couldn't fly. Didn't stop the Wright brothers did it?


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Old 11th Apr 2000, 11:27 AM   #8
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Hades, here's the thing...

Remember that if you have a 200ms ping, and he has a 400ms ping, that your data takes 100ms to get to the server, and 200ms to go from the server to him. So the delay from you to your target is 1/2 your ping + 1/2 opponent ping.


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Old 11th Apr 2000, 11:33 AM   #9
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CHRYSt: I'm not aware of client-side hitscan having been tried before. Even if it has been, I'll continue the experiment until someone shows me why it's impractical. See the First Reactions section of my FAQ (http://zeroping.home.att.net/faq.html#reactions) for more info on your point.

Haades: You're right -- you sometimes will seem to get nailed in mid-dodge, if someone with a 300 ms ping clicks on you before you strafe. But modem players won't find it easier to hit you overall -- their hits just register later.

Here's how I address the issue in my faq (http://zeroping.home.att.net/faq.html)

Q. Doesn't Zeroping make it harder to dodge other players' shots?

A. No, but other players may SEEM to be making some very difficult hits.

Dodging hitscan weapons is fairly steady-state: When you know someone's sniping at you, you juke and weave to stay out of the crosshairs, but you can't react to individual bullets the way that you would to rockets or plasma fire. Since you don't know in advance when and where an instant-hit shot is coming, you have no time to react to the other player's shots, and your movement pattern is what's important. If your attacker is running a listen server and has a ping of zero, her ability to hit you depends on whether or not she can click on your image while you jump around like a madman. With Zeroping, the same thing is true of all attackers, regardless of their pings. It's just as hard to click on a delayed image of a dodging player as it is a current one; you still have no idea which way he's going to jump next, even though each jump is 300 ms old. That means modem players and server ops alike find it equally hard (or easy) to hit you.

However, Zeroping can often make it SEEM like modem players are pulling off near-impossible shots, because other players don't see the hit until it comes through the server. Say, for example, you're double-strafe dodging repeatedly in an open area. In mid-dodge you're very hard to hit, but between dodges you're an easy target. If a modem player manages to click on you between dodges, the shot may not reach the server until you're in the middle of the next dodge. The modem player will seem to have nailed you in the middle of your slickest move, but in fact she put a bullet in your head while you were getting your footing. It's important to understand that you're getting hit because you were an easy target at some point in the past -- but you were only vulnerable to the modem player for the short amount of time that you were to everyone else. It's no easier for modem players to hit than it is for T1 players; modem players' hits just register at odd times.


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[This message has been edited by Jibe (edited 04-11-2000).]
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Old 11th Apr 2000, 11:38 AM   #10
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That kinda makes sense....ummm....

/me wanders off to replace head



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Old 11th Apr 2000, 11:52 AM   #11
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Top row - lpb pattern (insert whatever event you want at A,B,C,D).
Middle row - what the HPW sees.
Bottom row - HPW actions ^ = shot fired

---'s represent time passed
.. = lag difference

-----A-----B-----C-----D
.. -----A-----B-----C-----D
.. -----A^----B-----^-----D

As you can see, on the bottom, that if the HPW fires JUST after point A, the LPB is actually over half way through his maneuver (jump, dodge, whatever). But for the HPW he fires just as the LPB begins his maneuver.

In example C - the HPW fired before the LPB started evasive maneuvers. But to the LPB he gets hit when he's half way through it (a much less likely time to get hit). But as you can see, ZP has not given the HPW any extra time to see the LPB standing still. He just sees it a little later than the LPB did it.

Since the forum uses a different font (proportional rather than fixed) than the post entry - if it looks odd, just click the edit button on my post - you'll see what I'm talking about.


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Old 11th Apr 2000, 01:10 PM   #12
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Thanks Jibe.

Whatever the technical or philosphical arguments for and against ZP, it really makes the game much more fun for me and the group I normally compete in UT with, and that's what it's all about.

In the first release, one of the comments under what ZP "Will not do" was work with Arena mutators. The current version does not list that disclaimer, yet the mod we like the most, Infiltration, does not work with ZP. Is it just the particular implementation used by the Infiltration mod or does ZP work with some mods and not with others?

Thanks again for your time and efforts.

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Old 11th Apr 2000, 01:21 PM   #13
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Jibe, keep doing what you're doing, the way you're doing it.

Throughout history, people that have done the 'impossible' have been the ones that have benifited mankind most [img]/~unreal/ubb/html/smile.gif[/img]


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Old 11th Apr 2000, 01:30 PM   #14
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Ok, I'll re-phrase. It's been considered, and tested by every net-code programmer since Doom2. It's always been determined by those programmers that server side determination will make the game fair. I'm more inclined to go on the side of those who wrote the game originally, but hey, if it makes the game more fun for ya, more power to ya.



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Old 11th Apr 2000, 03:06 PM   #15
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RE:
"I plan to release a cleaned-up and heavily commented version of Accugib, so that other UnrealScript programmers can see client-side hitscan in action, and add it to their own stuff if they choose."

Thanks Jibe. Open scource will really help out.

Chryst: You are right of course, the possibilities have always been considered and always rejected thus far. I don't recall a public release of client-side hitscan in any games, however, and that's just what this is, an experiment. There are a lot of threads regarding ZPs ups and downs, but for me the real test is in play testing over the net, and for me it's a dream come true. If folks don't like it, the non-ZP servers out number the ZP servers 99-1, so there is always somewhere to go that fits your style.

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Old 12th Apr 2000, 12:39 AM   #16
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I'm glad to hear about ZP beta, although I haven't had a chance to play it (I've been busy putting together another Athlon : a 700mhz this time!)
I'd also agree that people tend to overuse the sniper rifle in ZP. I hope it is just a phase. I think that a lot of people find it so delightful to be able to hit targets so well that they have to bore themselves by overusing the sniper rifle for a while. If zeroping becomes widely accepted, I'm sure that the mappers will take this into account. Many people have commented about Unreal, and UT, that the maps are "too clean", meaning that there is not a lot of stuff to hide behind (for sake of low poly count, I guess).
Perhaps, Jibe, could you have a default option for the zeroping server for the weapons to revert to classic, instead of hardcore? I think that this might help lower the high rate of damage of the more deadly weapons?
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Old 12th Apr 2000, 04:04 AM   #17
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You know what, I DON'T PLAY UT ONLINE no way not ever never... why? Cause despite all claims that UT has a good network code, it really sucks *** .

So what do I base this claim on, ok I haven't played much UT online but I have played more than enough... maybe 2 hours... yea that is more than enough I got totally sick of it...

This time that I played I had around 80 ping yea 80, but it still felt as if the guns fired almost 0.5 sec after I pressed the fire button... Playing UT online feels like playing some stone age game over a 9600 bps connection...

HL netcode rules... I figure it's cause it has some type of client side prediction I donno... all I know is that in HL when I have 80 ping all guns fire EMMEDIATELY when pulling the trigger... no delay whatsoever (that I can notice atleast)... HL netcode maybe still isn't that good cause it require too much data to be sent... meaning 16+ player servers lag REAL bad. Hopefully this will be fixed in the next patch which will contain the TF2 netcode. Of course there are rumours of aimbots in the HL community... but who gives a **** I have never seen one.

All I can say if 0 ping is anything like HL's client side prediction then long live zeroping...
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Old 12th Apr 2000, 06:32 AM   #18
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Ha !! HL rules ! Brother better come up with something better then that! HL online suxs ass royally! That game plays like your stuck in a damn jello bowl! Get real man!!


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Old 12th Apr 2000, 01:08 PM   #19
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Devine Avenger, I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Honestly, I think that there must have been something wrong with your configuration or connection to experience the delay you are talking about. I play at 300 or higher ping all the time and I don't experience any such delay. Half-life, on the other hand, is quite jerky and halting for me to play online at my ping.

For those who have a misconception, ZP does not literally reduce your ping to zero!!! It reduces the lag of hit scan weapons to zero.
I played some ZP-beta last night. It was fine. Jibe, when exactly is the cutoff point, when a delayed shot no longer is valid?

[This message has been edited by HuFlungDung (edited 04-12-2000).]
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Old 12th Apr 2000, 01:12 PM   #20
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Even with that 80ms ping - he was probably experiencing high PL.

There is NO delay when I fire. And at 80ms, I can often dodge an incoming spread of 5 or 6 rockets aimed at my knees. So - no, the UT netcode does NOT suck.

I'm sorry you had a poor experience with it your first time. I know how important first impressions are - all I can say is give it another shot. I think you'll be impressed.


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