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View Poll Results: Should the scopes in INF be made easier to use?
Yes 24 38.71%
No 38 61.29%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 24th Jun 2004, 12:03 AM   #41
Hurin
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@jayhova,
i have never used a scope in a military, real life situation but i am sure among as are people who have, i would like to hear their opnions.
I have shot scoped rifles twice, and out of those times i have found that that although it maybe take some time to stabalize the gun you also have to realize that 2 factors play an importnat role in this.
a. in realife when you arent aiming your scoped gun isnt at your hip its on your should as psychomorphs suggested ready-fire mode, through this when one aims with the scope you already see in the general direction of the target.
b. Also you have to realize the zoom plays a big impact on how hard it is to stabalzie your aim. SHooting at a 25m target doesnt take much stabalizing, even if your bob is high. the greater the zoom the greater the bob will be the harder it is to "instantenously aquire a target".

AS for the people who have used real scoped assault rifles in real combat i urge you to speak up because your opinions count alot more then mine.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 04:20 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =D.C.L.I=Snipez
hmm aren't there pills snipers take to minimize that? teh trade-off could be some sort of f***ed up side-effect
Diazepam is fairly famous for this usage, though bad movies and videogames have made it out to be much more than it really is. It's a depressant that offers some (rarely practical) benefits. If you're interested in more, it's easily googlable.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 04:48 AM   #43
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From my point of view as a game player i real they could be made a little easier. Not so much as you can walk round scoped sniping everything maybe just the settle a little faster etc. Just so they are more of an attacking option because as someone has said unless you camp the entire round you are very easy to kill on the move i have killed countless scope users with my unscoped gun at close to medium ranges because they have to crouch bring the gun up steady there aim before they can fire where as i can just shoot or maybe crouch and shoot. Dont know about realisum im English and we dont have guns . Im just a games player.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 08:47 AM   #44
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Wink

@ Hurin:
a. in realife when you arent aiming your scoped gun isnt at your hip its on your should as psychomorphs suggested ready-fire mode, through this when one aims with the scope you already see in the general direction of the target.
b. Also you have to realize the zoom plays a big impact on how hard it is to stabalzie your aim. SHooting at a 25m target doesnt take much stabalizing, even if your bob is high. the greater the zoom the greater the bob will be the harder it is to "instantenously aquire a target".

I canít speak from military experience, but from using scoped rifles for almost 20 years, from a hunting stand point.

a. In real life, I carry my rifle across my chest, with right arm extended all the way, and left arm bent at 90 degrees, if Iím in a spot where there may be game. If not, I wear the rifle slung. The reason for the way I carry the gun is simple physics. Any object held in such a way that the center of gravity is away from the body creates stress on the back. Most people donít realize it, but those that have taken safe lifting classes know that objects held away from the body weigh many times as much with respect to the spine. This hold has always been effective for me because the gun can be brought to firing position by simple extending the left arm and raising the right.
I canít say for sure, but it seems that most pictures of American solders hold their weapons across the chest with the butt at the right shoulder and the muzzle down and to the left.
b. Zoom and target acquisition are most definitely closely related. At lower zoom, the actual viewing area is much larger, so you have more real estate in the scope to choose from, but Ďbobí is actually the same. At a lower zoom, the image does not move as much, but the rifle still moves the same amount, regardless of the zoom on the scope.
c. This brings me to my final point, and let the flames begin. Some say that scoped shooting is less accurate, and should be made more like iron sight firing. I say iron sights are way to accurate, and the Ďbobí needs to be dramatically increased. I can regularly go prone and get accuracy rates in the high 80 percents using a pistol at 100+ meters. Frankly, that is just ridiculous. Someone said that people shouldnít be afraid of snipers using scoped weapons, and I agree. People should be afraid of snipers using open sights, because they simply donít move very much, and their accuracy is astonishing.
Iíve owned many handguns: .380, 9mm, 357 magnum, 45 ACP, and .22. The most accurate weapon was the 357 magnum revolver with a six inch heavy target barrel. From a rest, I could get a consistent 6 inch group, but it was work. The semi autos have been, without exception, much less accurate. I wouldnít try to use them at much over 25 yards if possible. Now, granted, these are not high end pistols like the Sig, but I believe the accuracy issue comes from the number of moving parts involved, and in most cases, the floating barrel. The .22s and the .380 had fixed barrels, but the .380 was a cheap piece of junk, and I donít really put .22 LR in the same category. My Ruger .22 was very accurate, but I wouldnít carry one for anything but rabbit hunting or varmitting.

So, thatís my take on the whole barrel movement issue. Still, there are limits to what we can expect a group of unpaid enthusiasts to do with this game. IMO, it is already head and shoulders above most commercial shooters, (and thanks Inf dev team for ruining all those other games for me ) and if it never changes again, I still love it.

Thank you for your time
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 11:29 AM   #45
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@cavalier
OK from a hunting stand point i agree, but supposing you are out in combat and are expecting an enemy you would want the gun to be usable as fast as possible.
AS for the scope thing i compltly agree, the fact is the only diffrence between scoped and iron sighted weapons as far as i can see is the zoom, the bob is difrent because of the zoom etc.
If there is another major diffrence that should impact the weapons handling i dont know of it.
AS for your point that is really beyond me, i do not know exactly how the ballistics are structured in inf, i do know that unlike in real life you never have to adjust the sight to compensate for a long distance shot.
so.............
maybe we should ask beppo on this, but you are probably right on that pistols point.

IS there anyone here who has extensive military/ combat experiance and weapons training who may have used the berreta and the .357 DE, and could tell us how far they actually shoot accuratly?
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 12:25 PM   #46
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@Cavalier
Quote:
Zoom and target acquisition are most definitely closely related. At lower zoom, the actual viewing area is much larger, so you have more real estate in the scope to choose from, but Ďbobí is actually the same. At a lower zoom, the image does not move as much, but the rifle still moves the same amount, regardless of the zoom on the scope.
Yep, been firing scoped rifles and guns for about 25 years. Totally agree. And IRL there is really no difference in bob at different zoom levels because your nerves and eye compensate for it pretty well. I.e. your body just gets skilled at it all over time. FOV is the big factor in aquisition, but your rifle usually can be brought to bear pretty close to the target or usually right on it even at high power.

Quote:
This brings me to my final point, and let the flames begin. Some say that scoped shooting is less accurate, and should be made more like iron sight firing. I say iron sights are way to accurate, and the Ďbobí needs to be dramatically increased. I can regularly go prone and get accuracy rates in the high 80 percents using a pistol at 100+ meters. Frankly, that is just ridiculous. Someone said that people shouldnít be afraid of snipers using scoped weapons, and I agree. People should be afraid of snipers using open sights, because they simply donít move very much, and their accuracy is astonishing.
I think the iron sights are ok in the game, but yeah there better in game than the scopes because the scopes are so unreal. Actually theres barely any bob in a weapon when standing or crouched unless your arms are really tired, and none when prone because the earth doesn't move unless theres an earthquake. And shortly I'll post a video of my AKM prone resting on its drum mag to show there is no bob. Now looking through a scope there will be more bob than on iron sights, as my video of a look through a scope, and my coming video of my AKM will show. But its a minimal difference. The paralax in game is ridiculous. When standing still with your rifle, you will get NO paralax. Only when you are trying to move your body to a different position or are swinging the rifle wildly will you get paralax. You would actually have to shift it out of line with your eye, which isnt going to happen when your moderately still or moving slowly.
As for pistols getting acurate hits at around 300 feet, well, maybe the spread and bullet drop should be looked at, though its possible. Pistols are made for close up shots. I don't know what the accuracy of my Colt .45 Combat Commander is, but I wouldn't completely bet on it over 150 feet.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 12:25 PM   #47
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to the ballistics... you HAVE to aim with ballistics taken in mind...
just go to the shooting range and try to hit the 100m targets with the different pistols. You will notice that you have to aim higher to hit the center of the target. Same for MPs and ARs on greater ranges. PSG and RC.50 are 'zeroed' for even longer distances. So, every weapon in INF has its own distance it was 'zeroed' on.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 12:39 PM   #48
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to the scopes...
I guess you all agreed on not using scopes while moving and that the amount of bob is correct for this case... but even if some of you talk about the scope used while not moving I don't think that you know 100% how the bobing is affected and why.

The general bobing (same for iron sights) is based on your current stamina. The lower it is the more bob is visible. In addition your stance (standing, kneeling, prone) affects the bobing. So the 'steadier' you are the lower will the bob effect end up. Movement adds to the 'unsteadiness' and so the bob increases based on your movement 'speed'. In addition every step gives an extra little 'bob', again based on the speed. The stance changes the 'shape' of the 'lying eight' the bobing describes (I know, the 8 is not perfect). So while standing it is a regular eight, while crouching a more flattened one that is stretched horizontally too. And while prone it is a smaller eight all in all.

So, while standing with full stamina (I bet many of you take a sniper rifle, a bunch of mags and a fully equiped sidearm and so do not really have that much stamina left) the bob is there but it really isn't that much while using a scope. And if you kneel down or go prone it gets pretty steady even without the need to control your breathing (even for some fast ACOG or PSG shots in a row).

Scopes are made for steady positions... not for running around in CQB. And for those steady things they are very good and easy to master if you have trained for this.

ecale3 - just to name one that sticks out and posted here - is a real threat while using scoped weapons... and I got killed by him way too often already from large distances.... that's what scopes are made for... real sniping, covering positions or team members...
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 12:46 PM   #49
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logan, shooting on ranges and shooting in combat are so completely different comparing them is just stupid. I've never been in combat per se, but I take the example of a paintball gun, sitting around plinking cans from 100ft is easy, try shooting an equivilantly sized target at even 15ft when there are rounds impacting all around you and your trying to lean out from cover without getting shot, you'll be lucky if you hit it once with a burst of fire. And thats just a game, I can only imagine how much harder it would be if getting hit meant death or maiming, as opposed to a welt and sitting the rest of the game. Add in factors such as fatigue and nability to set a proper stance and I think it just silly to try to tell us that the game is unrealisticly hard to shoot the rifles because you can beat it firing on a nice comfortable range.

That said I agree completey that iron sights are easy to aim at the moment, they need to be given the same bobbing/stabilization characteristics as the scope, which would lead to some nice pitched battles instead of the snap-shooting we see now

Also, as my title says I am my clan's sniper, as it is I sometimes find the scopes too easy to use and overpowered, if you made it any easier it would be a cheese weapon
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 01:20 PM   #50
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NAh, bad arguement as youve never been in combat either. I've been in a knife fight ( 1 against 5, luckily it never came to blows ) and so yeah I know what the adrenaline of combat feels like. Heh, Texas can be a pretty rough place. Though thinking back on the experience, it wouldn't have affected my aim with a gun. And especially not as a sniper, because as a sniper my targets would be at least 100 meters off, plenty of time to duck for cover after taking out my target. Any closer and I would be pulling my pistol and moving. I totally disagree with the scopes, the bob is way over done. What bob is depicted for full stamina should be what is depicted for the lowest stamina and then not as much. As for moving targets off range, I've killed my share of deer. Sniping from cover is no where near as hard as it is depicted in the game. And the video I took proves it.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 01:36 PM   #51
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And here's some video to disprove some of the awful weapons bob in game *cough* minimi *cough*

This is shot prone of my AKM with 76 round drum mag. The weapon is using the drum mag as a monopod which is pretty effective. A good way to stabilize a prone weapon is to put your fist under the very rear of the stock, and grab the sling if you have one on the weapon. Then you can lift the weapon up and down with your fist or help swing it side to side.

AKM Video
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 02:22 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan6
And here's some video to disprove some of the awful weapons bob in game *cough* minimi *cough*

This is shot prone of my AKM with 76 round drum mag. The weapon is using the drum mag as a monopod which is pretty effective. A good way to stabilize a prone weapon is to put your fist under the very rear of the stock, and grab the sling if you have one on the weapon. Then you can lift the weapon up and down with your fist or help swing it side to side.

AKM Video
Sure, in a situation like this (attachment 1)

But how are they supposed to code to avoid a situation like this:
(attachment 2)
where the drum is clearly not resting on anything.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 02:58 PM   #53
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I say erase the distniction between irons and scopes for bob, makes scopes be equivalent of zoomed in irons.
Also what about the stabalize key idea that can only been done for 5 seconds at most and drains stamina but decreases bob by 30 % or so.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 04:13 PM   #54
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Well, its not bob that should be simulated, as there is very little in any weapon ( at least at first ). What causes bob is when you hold the weapon up to your eye for a long time. The heavier it is, the less the time you will be able to hold it, before you have to drop down to hip or just carry and give your arm a rest. After a couple of minutes, your muscles start depleting their energy, and you start to have a hard time keeping the weapon up because your arm is tired. Notice that the scope in my video was kind of shaky. Its not normally so, but I had been trying to get a good shot off of the scope for about 20 minutes and my arm was about to go. I don't think any weapon should bob more than the MP5 in the game. The thing should be how long you can hold that weapon up to your eye on standing or crouch before your stamina starts to drain.

Im for getting rid of the hold breath key in the game, which isn't that realistic. It goes from drunken sailor to crack shot in 2 seconds. I think Toads mutator had it pretty close except that it was pretty much all the same always. It should be pretty easy to keep the scope almost dead (98%) steady when your at full stamina. After you start losing stamina it should start to get a little shaky, more and more as your stamina goes down and you start panting and gasping for air. Obviously a sniper holding a weapon up to his eye for 15 minutes without a break is going to really start losing it. But really, it should never get too shaky, not much more than Toad had. Maybe bad when you can hear your guy panting for air. Same for the iron sights. However, iron sights are easier to hold steady than a scope.
Now if you can rest the scope against a steady object, like a bipod, or on a fence, you can get a dead steady shot, even while standing with decent stamina.
Also the zoom on the PSG-1 looks about right, but the .50 is a far different rifle meant for long range sniping. There should be a variable 6-24X scope ( preferably Zeiss or Leupold ) on it to give it the accuracy it needs for that range. I think the .50 is a little overkill though, a .338 magnum ( which I hear is taking over 7.62 as the new sniper caliber ) would be nice to see come into the sim. A little lighter than the .50, it has about the same range but a lesser punch needed to take out personel, and not jeeps and light vehicles. Hoping to get my hands on one one day when they get a little cheaper. $4000 for the Dakota T76 is a little much.

My main goal of the AK video was just to show how out of wack some of the weapon bobbing was getting, especially on the minimi, which bobs like crazy even when prone. Thats just plain weapon balancing.

@Derelan
Im no coder, at least not in this game. Yeah, bent up at that crazy angle would be hard, but from experience at being in crazy angles like that trying to fire, it should be like above. But, stamina in your arms should be going very quickly because your having to use pretty much your back muscles only to stabilize your body. Your going to burn the glucagon surpluses in your muscles pretty quick. I'd give you about 20 seconds of holding that particular rifle before you dropped it from exhaustion in that position.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 04:48 PM   #55
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Though thinking back on the experience, it wouldn't have affected my aim with a gun.
Then apparrently you need to go join the CIA or something, they are in need of a super-soldier like yourself, as it appears you have nerves of steel and aim greater then pretty much any soldier who's ever seen combat. That as your so combat-hardened by a knife-fight that was never actually a fight

The bob on the scope is meant to be when the rifle is completely unsteadied, when you take active measures to eliminate this in-game (holding the breath key down) you get absolutely ZERO movement of the scope. If you actually practice with the weapon you'll find it is extreamly accurate and powerful. I've been a sniper in game since 2.75, and yes I do do target shooting IRL, and the scope prior to the increase in difficulty of 2.9 was way to easy to use.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 06:02 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Snake13
The bob on the scope is meant to be when the rifle is completely unsteadied, when you take active measures to eliminate this in-game (holding the breath key down) you get absolutely ZERO movement of the scope. If you actually practice with the weapon you'll find it is extreamly accurate and powerful. I've been a sniper in game since 2.75, and yes I do do target shooting IRL, and the scope prior to the increase in difficulty of 2.9 was way to easy to use.
If that is the case, then we need to drastically reduce the time it takes to steady the scope (1-3 seconds), and increase the length of time you can have the scope steadied (2-5 minutes?)

A great book to read about snipers, although semi-fiction, is War of the Rats. It explains that in WW2, an elite sniper was one considered to be able to fire at a soldier's head 400m away, reload, and hit the soldier's head again in less than 5 seconds. I don't know how it works now, but it shows you that it takes even the best snipers some time to ready themselves if they miss a shot.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 06:22 PM   #57
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no, what we need is the ability to rest the rifle on objects

Quote:
A great book to read about snipers, although semi-fiction, is War of the Rats. It explains that in WW2, an elite sniper was one considered to be able to fire at a soldier's head 400m away, reload, and hit the soldier's head again in less than 5 seconds
This is impossible unless the weapon was semi-automatic, the record for rate of fire for a bolt-action rifle is 15 rounds in a minute (established by the British Royal Marines if I remeber correctly). Thats aproximatly a shot every 4 seconds, your telling me precision aimed headshot at 400m with only one more second to aim then the fastest ever rate of fire acomplished is the standard? If it was a semi, then I could do that with the PSG as it is in game currently
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 06:28 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Snake13
no, what we need is the ability to rest the rifle on objects



This is impossible unless the weapon was semi-automatic, the record for rate of fire for a bolt-action rifle is 15 rounds in a minute (established by the British Royal Marines if I remeber correctly). Thats aproximatly a shot every 4 seconds, your telling me precision aimed headshot at 400m with only one more second to aim then the fastest ever rate of fire acomplished is the standard? If it was a semi, then I could do that with the PSG as it is in game currently
Does it look like I said 5 seconds is "the standard"? I said it was a semi-fiction novel, and I said it was the 'elite' or 'absolute best of the best' that could acheive 5 seconds. Yes, for bolt-action.
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 06:45 PM   #59
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you didn't say the "best of the best" you said elite, and since snipers are elite troops to begin with that would pretty much make it the sniper standard, you need to be more specific.

And if you say "don't nitpick my source cause its semi-fiction", I must ask what the point of using it as a source to begin with is?
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Old 24th Jun 2004, 07:10 PM   #60
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Well, whatever. The scope video I shot says it all. Thats how a scope looks when your arm is moderately tired. A little jerky cause your muscles and nerves are tired. Its much better when your fresh and at full stamina. Almost stock still. When you aim the scope coming up at your target it takes about 1 to 2 seconds to aquire the target, sometimes you come up dead on it. Mostly depends on the range. Of course, small, far away targets are going to take more time and concentration to get the sights steady on. Of course thats for snap shots. If you want a good shot, you take your time and get the scope as steady as possible, then slowly squeeze the trigger while keeping the crosshairs dead on the target. But then again I think I said it about as good as I can in my last post. As for joining the CIA, nah Im more an FBI sharpshooter type
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