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Old 27th Dec 2003, 12:33 AM   #1
Mappie
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A few thoughts...

Not sure if this should be in the online section but here goes...I love 2.9. The new gamemodes are great. But... something seems to be missing. One thing i am not happy with is that (in my opinion) people are not as careful as they were in 2.86 (sometimes myself included ). It seems to me that the respawns are a false sense of security to players who like to run and gun. The often thought is "well i have more lives so lets take this risk etc." For some thats good, but for others not. The respawns seem to make the game less suspensful.

I remember some really tense matches on AFA2 with Rav2 and DTAS. The threat of getting shot once and the fact that if u died once it was over caused me to be extra careful. The clan matches were great! Is there anyone with a server out there that would set one day a week or maybe more to no respawns and have a DTAS type game mode set to the server? I think it would work great with the new maps and weapons. Plus i think it would probably get a decent amount of support from the inf population. This is just a thought of mine. Does anyone else feel the same?

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Last edited by Mappie; 27th Dec 2003 at 12:34 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 27th Dec 2003, 12:55 AM   #2
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Having one life always used to make me rush more - generally straight round the flank.

I'd take risks to kill the other team safe in the knowledge that each kill was 12.5% of the opposing team's capabilities gone for the remainder of the round. You only needed to catch two or three people looking the wrong way to really bugger up the other team's chances.

Now that it's only like .025%/.042% of the opposing teams capabilities for the round goonery like that seems a lot less worthwhile. I find EAS makes me think a lot more about the objective rather than shuffling the other team off their mortal coil.
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Old 27th Dec 2003, 05:52 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm1138
Having one life always used to make me rush more - generally straight round the flank.

I'd take risks to kill the other team safe in the knowledge that each kill was 12.5% of the opposing team's capabilities gone for the remainder of the round. You only needed to catch two or three people looking the wrong way to really bugger up the other team's chances.

Now that it's only like .025%/.042% of the opposing teams capabilities for the round goonery like that seems a lot less worthwhile. I find EAS makes me think a lot more about the objective rather than shuffling the other team off their mortal coil.
Agreed. I did the same. Now I take my time and I am very careful. I had an awsome match today on GD server with a newbie Evans. It was about 6 vs 6 on frozen and I wanted to test a new attack method in CQB. I got a minimi and instead of just waiting for an enemy to come and shoot him while I was attacking I walked in slowly through the corridors firing quick bursts of suppresive fire. Evans had a P90 and did the same but more into doors and areas I wasnt aiming. We musta dropped 2000 rounds that match. Although we lost in the end (due to a spectacular defense mainly by the mighty warrior Max) we had a hell of a time. Im gonna post some screens shortly I took.

Pics:

1: Lots of rounds were spent to get even here. There was literally a trail of rounds from the front 1st level floor of the main building to this door at the main lab.

2: Another pic.

3: Maxs incredible shotgun work ripped us good through the door. I realize now I need to make anther minimi loadout with a few nades for CQB.

4: They won when we defended but as you can see here we made them suffer as well.
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Last edited by {GD}NTKB; 27th Dec 2003 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 27th Dec 2003, 11:28 AM   #4
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I agree that the spawn point induce a false sense of security. Yesterday, I was playing on AFA with NT, KW, erehwon and many others on a DS map I never had played before. Myself and many other whined on how the defending team was spawn camping us. But afterwards, I realised how dumb I was. It's only on my last life that I realised the defensive position of the spawn points. People simply ran towards the objectiv (and death) without even thinking to secure and defend the spawn points.

And the oposing team could have been much meaner by, for exemple, nading the spawn points (which they didn't do).

In those situation people must get organized to work it out. Not simply try to run for it. That exactly what we forgot to do and I felt very dump to yell the good ol' "SPAWN CAMPERS!".

One thing I miss though from DTAS was the random spawn point. This made life interesting. That's why I like so much Mostar. It's one of the best map IMO that has a lot of variables. I nerver get tired of this map or its sneakiness
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Old 27th Dec 2003, 03:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogob
I agree that the spawn point induce a false sense of security. Yesterday, I was playing on AFA with NT, KW, erehwon and many others on a DS map I never had played before. Myself and many other whined on how the defending team was spawn camping us. But afterwards, I realised how dumb I was. It's only on my last life that I realised the defensive position of the spawn points. People simply ran towards the objectiv (and death) without even thinking to secure and defend the spawn points.

And the oposing team could have been much meaner by, for exemple, nading the spawn points (which they didn't do).

In those situation people must get organized to work it out. Not simply try to run for it. That exactly what we forgot to do and I felt very dump to yell the good ol' "SPAWN CAMPERS!".

One thing I miss though from DTAS was the random spawn point. This made life interesting. That's why I like so much Mostar. It's one of the best map IMO that has a lot of variables. I nerver get tired of this map or its sneakiness
This would be totolly up to the mappers now. I hope more mappers implement dynamic spawns like you mentioned. Some maps I feel dont need it, like Atoll for example. But some do. Especially urban maps like Sabriyah (this is the map Geogob is referring too). It is possible to nade spawns in certain maps but admins can kick ppl doing this or check
this thread out about a good spawn protection mutator idea.
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Old 27th Dec 2003, 03:33 PM   #6
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Totally agree with mappie. It's been my opinion since 2.9 got out and i realized no server were running a "stand off" configuration. Now with multiple respawns you can easily blind nade the guy that killed you 10 seconds ago, that really detracts from realism IMHO. I miss the intensity of rav2 matches and the fear of being killed. What surprises me is that we don't need any mutator to get that feel back, all we need is a server with 0 reinforcement, or even a very high wave respawn time. But apparently people who think this way still represent a very small minority.
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Old 27th Dec 2003, 04:46 PM   #7
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Perhaps this reduced awareness and cautiousness is in part caused by the mix up of the Vanilla and Rav2 communities? In the last days of 2.86, I've played Vanilla 286 a few times and it was more run and shoot then wait and sneak.

Not that there is anything wrong with this mix up! But I feel that 2.9 is much closer to Rav2/DTAS then 2.86 vanilla was.



NTKB, that's not a bad idea, the spawn protection. But on this particular map, it would help a lot if all the spawn location for attackers would be interconnected.

It is clear that the reinforcements changed a lot of things. Maybe we should ask server admins (AFA? GD?) to setup a 0 reinforce night
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Old 27th Dec 2003, 10:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogob
...Maybe we should ask server admins (AFA? GD?) to setup a 0 reinforce night

That could be arranged.
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Old 27th Dec 2003, 11:59 PM   #9
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Old 28th Dec 2003, 12:07 AM   #10
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i'm in for no reinforcements, i hate running back to the objective and i hate defending longer than 1 min :P
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 03:09 AM   #11
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hehehe, id like to see someone convert DTAS over for 2.9 and see if it actually is fun first on the new maps, aside from the gametypes, then ill support and even play it online, for nostalgic purposes of course :P

Who originally coded DTAS again? give em a holler!
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 03:24 AM   #12
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 04:18 AM   #13
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The reinforcements "feeling of importance" isn't anything new to Inf 2.9. A small few of you remember the DropInINF + RandomCTF matches of old. As soon as people knew they would spawn again, they didn't worry so much about their actions, and even RAv2 couldn't convince people to play realistically. Longer waits for spawns and fewer spawns are the only way to go, imho, *but*, they shouldn't be eliminated alltogether. No spawning again will make EAS maps degrade into TDM again.
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 12:37 PM   #14
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I also think DTAS would be fun in INF. should be released as a new gametype (because it's... euh... another gametype).

I miss those blind caps :P
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 01:22 PM   #15
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The advantage of reinforcments can't be ignored though. Because the defending team gets a large number of troops to defend with over the course of a round the objectives now have considerably more importance. Previously a winning tactic (and the usual one at that) was to hunt the defending team. That no longer works so people have to consintrate far more on completing the objectives set out.

I'll agree there are problems with the system as it currently works but its better than it was and I for one don't really know a way to fix it without turning the game back into TDM.

DTAS for 2.90 would be an interesting game type as maps are now a lot bigger and some are even better
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 02:35 PM   #16
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i hope i'll never play DTAS again
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 03:12 PM   #17
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It really has nothing to do with the amount of respawns, just how fast the team can get reinforcements to the front. Respawns merely define how long a team can do this.
60 respawns with a 3-4 minute wave timer would probably play more realistic than you realize. Dying would matter, and you'd spawn with your team in huge groups. Killing off the enemy team members would give you up to 4 minutes of time to get the CD and get the hell out of there, plenty of time. Just hope you didn't forget one.
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 03:37 PM   #18
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3 minutes respawn night on GD?
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 07:34 PM   #19
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Yepp the mixture of reinforcements, overtime settings and wave times is the key here to a good game.
This in combination with the current amount of players per team too actually.

If only two small teams of ie 3-4 people play against each other then a wait of 40-60 seconds to respawn could be endless and could be enough already to get ie the attacking team so far away that noone can intercept them anymore if the attackers managed to kill all defenders within a short amount of time ie while they protected the laptop area all together.

A smaller amount of reinforcements can ruin the game for defenders too cause then a bunch of attackers can spread out, risk their own lifes to kill as many defs as possible. If they take out one defender by using one of their own lives, then it can already be enough cause the attackers normally start with more lifes than the defs. And this done quickly will end up in a whole team of defenders sitting locked in their spawn view waiting for an overtime reinforcement that will not happen before 5 to 10 additional minutes have passed... meaning the attackers will win of course if they do not TK each other. So setting up a very low amount of reinforcements ruins the match for defenders most times if the attackers are able to realize that killing all defs is way better than trying to accomplish the mission in the first place.

Giving a bunch of reinforcements right from the start balances things out a bit more. Defenders do not really get an advantage if they spread out to hunt down every attacker out there cause they will respawn in a short amount of time and you cannot get them all normally. So protecting the objectives is a much better tactic to win than to run around trying to kill as many attackers as possible. So defenders most times actually defend and only a very small group of them would try to flank the attackers or would try to intercept them. And this would be 'ok' cause the smaller amount of team losses done by defs flanking and intercepting are affordable if enough reinforcements are available.
Same for the attackers... if a bunch of reinforcements is available for the defenders then an attacker would not run and gun to take one defender with him. It would not work out normally cause the more defender reinforcements are available the more time is needed to get them all before noone is left... but then the overtime will jump in and will give defenders new reinforcements. So attackers will more concentrate on the objectives to ie. push back the defenders, advance their own spawns or to simply get the damn CD out to the extract. It would be way better to grab the CD and protect the guy on his way out then to run around trying to find and kill some defenders.

So, if the amount of reinforcements is not too high but not too low too then the gameplay will automatically shift towards the actual roles both teams should play - if the teams want to win and realize how to.
Restricting the amount of reinforcements would need to lower the time limits too and maybe even change the overtime settings to jump in sooner.

The things I do not like due to the reasons pointed out above:
- reinforcements lower than 3/4 with overtimesettings reducing the defenders total amount of lives to only 2 or even only 1 in combination with a standard timelimit of 18-20 minutes... => only results in attackers trying to kill all defenders as fast as possible, without caring for any risks taken... blindy running towards the defs with guns on auto, killing one def before the attacker dies himself would be all you need to win the round.

So, reinforcements are needed imho ... and a bunch of them. Our defaults are pretty good actually and balance it out for both sides, attackers and defenders.
A too low amount of reinforcements with a full timelimit ruins the game for defenders fully cause it will never result in the slow moving tactical gameplay that many think it would push the players into... it will result in exactly the opposite: run and gun, spray and pray... kill all defenders right away

Beppo
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Old 5th Jan 2004, 09:42 PM   #20
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A smaller amount of reinforcements can ruin the game for defenders too cause then a bunch of attackers can spread out, risk their own lifes to kill as many defs as possible.
Nice to see someone agrees with me on this issue

So are any admins going to take the many respawns/slow waves "bait"?

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