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Old 16th Sep 2003, 12:14 PM   #1
Ultron
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New Unreal:Redemption mod needs team members!

Here's the concept: Bring back the original Unreal gameplay, with a few elements that made UT even better, and a couple borrowed features from UT 2003 and Unreal 2. This will be a mod for UT2004, and I intend to run it in next year's Make Something Unreal contest.

We need the following:

Character Modeller/Texture artist for player models (1)
Uscript programmer (1)

We currently have one mapper, and one person making the weapons.

More members might be needed, but I can't say for sure at this time.

STEP BY STEP MOD CREATION - OUTLINE

(I) Weapon changes
(II) Movement changes
(III) New models and bounding box changes
(IV) New class based gametype
(V) New menu system is created from new executable that launches game


(I) Weapon changes
Here are the weapons that will make a revisit in this mod:

[1] Dispersion pistol/melee (Yes, melee! Primary = punch and Secondary = kick)
[2] Automags/Dual Automags
[3] Stinger/Quadshot
[4] ASMD
[5] Eightball
[6] Flak Cannon
[7] Razorjack
[8] BioRifle/Flamethrower (Yes I said Flamethrower!)
[9] Minigun
[0] Sniper Rifle

Rate of fire, rate of travel for projectiles, and damage dealt by each round is identical to how they were for each weapon in Unreal, with a couple exceptions. Weapon balancing might lead to additional changes, but not are planned for now.

There will also be a Dispersion mutator, which is very much like Instagib, except that all players are given a special Stage 5 Dispersion Pistol that (like the SuperShockRifle) never runs out of power or needs recharging. The secondary fire mode does some splash damage once fully charged and fired.


(II) Movement changes
Air control is just like in UT (35%), at 100% (normal) speed, in hardcore mode.

There are 3 special moves, include dodging, wall dodges, and mantling. Mantling is automatically done when a player tries to climb upon a box or ledge that is a little too high to jump on.

Moves such as double jumps, dodge jumps, or boost dodge jumps are not included in the mod.

Jump height and dodge distance will be restored to it's original height and distance in UT. The current crouching system will be maintained.

The identical weapon-switching delay that was in UT will be a part of this mod.


(III) Model/bounding box changes
Models will be the same size as original Unreal/UT models, including the same size of the bounding box and hitzones. Camera height will be restored to be around the model's head, not below the neck.


(IV) Class-based team gametype created
This will imitate class-based warfare in other games, using the CTF gametype. There are three weapon classes. Miner, Mercenary, and Marine. This goes hand in hand with a single player campaign that could be developed if the mod team is willing. The single player campaign will require 12 interactive maps and 2 non-interactive maps if undertaken.

Miner weapons: Stinger, Razorjack, Biorifle, Flamethrower
Mercenary weapons: Automags, Quadshot, Minigun, SniperRifle
Marine weapons: Dispersion pistol, ASMD, Eightball, Flak


(V) Menu system created

A new executable and map will be used to launch the game, and will have it's own menu system similar to what Unreal had. There will also be a flyby screen at startup which can be pre-empted by the main menu.

nick.carroll@juno.com
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Old 16th Sep 2003, 12:53 PM   #2
Ultron
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I already have a mapper and weapon modeller/texture artist. I just need 1) a character modeller/texture artist and 2) a scripter (probably the hardest position to fill).

I've made the project have stages, so that at any time if the project somehow mysteriously dies, there will be something to show for it. Right now with the crew of three I currently have I can complete the first of five stages.
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Old 17th Sep 2003, 10:06 AM   #3
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Do you have the neccasary permission to do this? I assume Epic has some kind of copywright on the Unreal weapons and charachters.

Also do you have a website?
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 12:07 AM   #4
Ultron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackReacher
Do you have the neccasary permission to do this? I assume Epic has some kind of copywright on the Unreal weapons and charachters.
I don't need permission to do a mod. In any case I know Mark Rein and Jay Wilbur both are aware of this and haven't told me not to do this. I just can't make money with this mod. If I were to try to make money doing this, I'd have to fork over $250K for the engine license, then hire people, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackReacher
Also do you have a website?
Not yet, but I hear that's a good thing. I plan on having a basic informational website up by this weekend, but I'd rather work on the mod than do much with the website. hehe
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 04:03 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultron
I don't need permission to do a mod. I just can't make money with this mod.
Wrong. Copyright is not about making money, it's about using other people's intellectual property. Read UnrealWiki: Mod Copyright for details.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 07:58 AM   #6
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Wormbo smacks down the law

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Old 18th Sep 2003, 08:21 AM   #7
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 08:27 AM   #8
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Still, I think he's in the clear. Epic has OK'd mods entering the MSUC to use any previous Unreal property - they just can't "go commercial" with it. I would assume that they are reading the EULA in the same light.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 10:51 AM   #9
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Yeah no offense but I've ported several maps from Unreal and UT before with permission from various Epic employees and they've never had a problem with it.

And Wormbo, did you think I wouldn't know about copyright law? Did you know that every mod made for the Unreal series would have to succumb to such a requirement, just because it uses the Unreal engine? That's derivitive work you know. That means that for everyone that wishes to make a mutator, mod, etc, they must get permission first from Epic, then from anyone else they derived a product from, according to copyright law.

But Epic doesn't make such requirements for mods made on their products. Why? Because they know the mods for their products, help their products.

Answer me this Worm, which is the last free mod for say, UT2k3, that Epic cracked down on? And why did they do it?

Keep in mind we have seen precident set by Old Skool, Redux, Deja Vu, Losing Faith, Nali Chronicles, Classic UT, UTClassic and probably some others that I'm forgetting.

Remember, this is not a separate product that will be released apart from UT2k4. This is a mod for UT2k4, not for another competing game.

Maps I have gotten permission from:
CTF-TwinCommand (Myscha, though Talisman answered for him)
CTF-Deck16]|[ (Myscha, though Talisman answered for him)
CTF-FinalFace (Innox)
CTF-NightOps (CliffyB)
CTF-Curse]|[ (CliffyB)
There's others but I can't remember offhand.

Most of the guys I have gotten permission from have said they thought it was unneccesary for me to ask since I was porting from one Unreal project to another. Talisman told me not to bother unless I was trying to make money. Cliffy couldn't believe I was trying to even use his original Darkmatch map NightOps.

To date I have never been told otherwise by Epic, so quite frankly, I'm going to keep porting maps and making this mod until I am told otherwise.

BTW I have already sent e-mails to Mark Rein and Jay Wilbur on this and neither has sent me a reply back saying no I can't do this. If had been told just once that I wasn't supposed to be doing any of the straight conversions I've done, I'd hesitate here.

Wormo, what makes you think Epic will have a problem with this mod for UT2k4, when they've obviously had no problem with any other Unreal to Unreal mod?

Here is what I've already sent to Mark Rein:

Quote:
Hi, I want to make the following free mod for UT2k3/UT2k4 which is basically bringing the old Unreal weapons into UT2k4, and creating a new gametype within it. I've posted the information on the Atari UT2004 forums here:

http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums...hreadid=317460

If you have any questions or problems with this mod, let me know. Thank you in advance!
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 10:57 AM   #10
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Not only that but that thread above has been on the official Atari forums for the last 4 days and I know for a fact he frequents those forums. To date, neither him nor anyone else at Epic has said anything to me about this telling me not to do this.

I am also going to be running this in next year's MSU contest, btw.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 11:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultron
Yeah no offense but I've ported several maps from Unreal and UT before with permission from various Epic employees and they've never had a problem with it.
All is fine and dandy if you have permission.

I believe Wormbo's point was that you are not exempt from copyright laws because you're not making money off the object that is using copyrighted material -- which seems to be a common assumption.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 11:14 AM   #12
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What's funny is that my original words are still correct. I do not need permission to make a mod. I would need permission to make a mod from Q3A, etc, but not every mod is derivative of another product.

I'm making a mod based on the original Unreal, for which Epic has let mod after mod based on that and UT be done. In fact the guy who's doing the weapons, I know he got permission to do the weapons, because he's doing his own weapons-only mod. I'm integrating that with his permission into this mod, with a few changes.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 11:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [-will-]
All is fine and dandy if you have permission.

I believe Wormbo's point was that you are not exempt from copyright laws because you're not making money off the object that is using copyrighted material -- which seems to be a common assumption.
I understand his point and don't disagree with what he's saying, but I think the tone he sets by just outright telling me I'm wrong (when technically what I said was correct) and I need to read up on copyright law, presumes that a) I was wrong, and that b) I haven't read up on copyright law.

I had to set the record straight.

a) I am correct when I say "I don't need permission to do a mod." If it's not derived from any other game, then I don't need to ask permission of anyone except the makers of the game I am doing the mod in. However Epic has given carte blanche to mod makers by giving them the tools and telling them "go ahead and use them." So that takes care of the other end of things.

Now obviously this is derivative work from Unreal. As far as Unreal to Unreal mods, I've never heard Epic denying anyone from doing that. From my e-mail conversations with Epic employees in the past I've been told they really don't care as long as it's not something that's done commercially. For me to do that, that gets into a whole new area. I'd have to purchase the quarter million dollar engine, and still get permission from Epic to do an Unreal-based game.

b) I have read up on this and I'm acting on good faith in Epic considering how openly supportive they've been of mod makers in the past from Unreal to Unreal projects. I have informed them I'm doing this. I'm posting it publically on their forums and I know they're aware of this and haven't told me not to do it.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 12:04 PM   #14
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Just thought I'd point out that all the "precedents" you mentioned... well, aren't. They all use content already present in their respective platforms to begin with, AFAIK.

Though, yeah, it's probably not a big deal. What might be cooler is if you actually recreated all the stuff from scratch to actually take advantage of the new engine's higher polycount rendering abilities and stuff. Copying and pasting models kind of begs the obvious question... (Someone get Nemephosis over here...)
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 01:06 PM   #15
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I was just pointing it out incase you hadnt checked, i wasnt sure if it would be a problem or not
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 01:06 PM   #16
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Ultron - you really need to settle down. Granted, I'm sure Epic doesn't care about Unreal content in any Unreal mod. However, if you are EVER trying to use someone elses content (recent example: Counter-Field, supposedly to be an exact copy of Counter-Strike for BF1942), you MUST have permission or the owners of such information have every right to shut you down (as it seems what happened to Counter-Field). So there probably is an exception seeing that we are dealing with the same engine here. but don't you try to pull the same stunt with something else.

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(Someone get Nemephosis over here...)
LOL. Nemo lay the smackdown...
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 01:10 PM   #17
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I think Wormbo was just trying make clear the common misconception of "non-profit = legal", which was probably not Ultron's real point.

Let's face it, Worm has probably had to say it enough that's basically instinctive at this point.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 01:12 PM   #18
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Oh I totally agree with you guys. And I am sorry if I seem like I'm jumping on anyone, but I've been waiting on a reply back on this myself. I'm just acting on good faith because Epic's been a real good company to it's community. A great example of this is the Buzz tour they are sponsoring. I got a chance to speak with Jason Busby and Logan Frank Monday during their Buzz tour down in Houston and I can't think of another game company that has done more to promote their mod community by funding a free tour across America and Canada. Logan thought my idea was cool.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 01:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Kewl
Just thought I'd point out that all the "precedents" you mentioned... well, aren't. They all use content already present in their respective platforms to begin with, AFAIK.
Well most of them. Some of them use new content, or are UT2k3 mutators that use settings that were in UT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Kewl
Though, yeah, it's probably not a big deal. What might be cooler is if you actually recreated all the stuff from scratch to actually take advantage of the new engine's higher polycount rendering abilities and stuff. Copying and pasting models kind of begs the obvious question... (Someone get Nemephosis over here...)
Yeah I don't plan on copying and pasting. Worst case would be original weapon meshes and new textures. But the guy doing weapons is using original meshes and textures. Character models should be the same, new content, not recycled old content.

Now mind you I want it to look fairly similar, but the old weapons probably had 10 polygons total hehe. The players were probably a few dozen.
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Old 18th Sep 2003, 02:16 PM   #20
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How about porting in some of the U2 charachters to UT2k3 then?
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