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Old 19th Feb 2004, 12:11 AM   #281
Zundfolge
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Mebbe it just needs broken in.
How old is the gun? How many rounds have been through it?

Are the upper and lower from the same manufacturer?


I'm not sure what you mean by "tight" ... does it feel like the trigger is binding? or the bolt?

mebbe it does just need to be broken in (sounds like fun)
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Old 19th Feb 2004, 12:53 AM   #282
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First thing, split the upper, and lower. Notice how much effort is needed to draw back the bolt carrier. Closely inspect the gas key, and gas tube for signs of interference.

Next, cock the hammer (Lower, still separate from the upper), set it on auto, and with the right index finger pull the trigger. Guide the hammer down gently (or you may damage the mag well) without releasing the trigger, pull the hammer back, and attempt to drop it using the auto sear. Note the amount of pressure required, as well as signs of excessive wear, or interference with the bolt carrier. (Are you using a regged drop in auto sear, or is it a true M16 conversion? The more I read your description, the more it smells like a hanging or improperly installed sear spring, OR a bad DIAS. Bursts, having to repull while in auto, etc..)

Pull the buffer. Considering it's a M4 style stock, does it have the right buffer, and does the buffer go "kaclunk" when shaken? Note signs of wear, binding, or damage to the buffer tube from bolt carrier overtravel, or a damaged recoil spring.

Lastly, have you tried a diffrent kind of ammo? Some bad lots of surplus or cheap ammo will have a dramatic effect on cyclic rate.

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Last edited by Meplat; 19th Feb 2004 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 19th Feb 2004, 11:14 AM   #283
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First of all, it isn't mine...........but from a lot of surplus A1's we received (about 30). As near as I can tell from the packaging and tags, they were shelved in about '84.

They've all been inspected, all were serviceable and in good working order, other than changing out minor parts.

Nonetheless, it was reported to me yesterday by the operator and I had about 5 minutes to look at it. I tore it down and did a functions check and quickly looked it over. Functions check worked fine, through both semi and auto, and I didn't notice anything really obvious. I did NOT look at the buffer, or buffer tube.....good idea. I did give a cursory look to the gas tube, and didn't notice anything. In retrospect, it seems as though there might be a tad more resistance when pulling the charging handle to the rear. I thought at the time that it was just me.

I think that the upper is from Rock River, but don't quote me on that. Obviously the lower is Colt. By "tight" I don't mean the trigger or the bolt, more like the weapon overall. It makes zero noise when moved around and it just feels, well, stiff, I guess.

Honestly, I'm not sure what ammo he fired through it thus far, but it should be some of the large quantity of Winchester FMJ ammo we just got. Had no problems with it thus far. The duty ammo is Hornady TAP.....but I doubt he fired any of that......expen$ive.

Planning on taking it out myself on March 3rd and take a better look at it and putting a few rounds through it myself.

Good ideas, thanks for the info, I was just stumped that he said that it only fired semi when on auto, and that it's increasingly firing auto in larger bursts. I was afraid that rather than breaking it in, he's just breaking it.

Thanks again.
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Old 19th Feb 2004, 01:11 PM   #284
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No problem. Keep us updated.

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Old 5th Apr 2004, 11:53 AM   #285
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Question about HK's:
You know the trigger groups are interchangeable?

How interchangeable?

Could you take an MP5 trigger group and fit it to a weapon of a different caliber?
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Old 6th Apr 2004, 01:58 AM   #286
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I don't think you can. I believe "interchangeable" for HK means being able to change say MP5 for example, groups with another MP5 of the same calibre, so you could have, say a MP5A2 with the "Navy" trigger group for example.
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Old 22nd May 2004, 02:03 PM   #287
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Ok, I was talking to this guy last night who was going off on one of those typical "9mm is crap, .45 has much more stoping power...5.56mm is crap, 7.52 NATO and 7.62x39R are much better, etc" rants. I know I've countless arguments to the contrary here, but I couldn't remember any specifics enough to make a competent response. Someone wanna refresh my memory?
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Old 22nd May 2004, 02:37 PM   #288
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Complement him on his extensive firearms knowledge.

He is obviously a member of the Delta Ranger Seals and you would only end up looking foolish if you contradicted him.
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Old 22nd May 2004, 02:42 PM   #289
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Just do what I do when someone goes on and on about something they think they know a lot about: Loudly exclaim "Congratulations on your huge penis!" and walk away.
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Old 23rd May 2004, 01:27 AM   #290
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9mm makes people bleed more, and can penetrate lower level body armor. .45 can't penetrate a leather jacket. (hyperbole).

Simple premise. If they bleed more, they die faster. 9mm makes them bleed more because it makes more holes. One entry, one exit. .45 might make an entry wound if you're lucky. The "stopping power" myth is total and utter bull****.

Remember this piece of elementary physics: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

In terms of guns, this means that the amount of energy transferred into a target when it hits, has also been transferred into you via the wonderful effects of "recoil." Not only this, but the bullet has lost energy on it's travel, so you and your firearm absorbed more energy in recoil than the target absorbed in "stopping power."

What all of this essentially means: A bullet can't knock somebody over without sending you flying, stopping power is a stupid myth, and .45s are piss weak subsonic pop gun rounds. Tell him I said he's a fag, and that he should stand infront of a 9mm one day and see if he still thinks it's weak. Also tell him that I said only redneck idiots use .45 and real men use .357sig.
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Old 23rd May 2004, 01:33 AM   #291
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Hehe, Jaunty, somehow I knew you would step up to the plate. Want to get more technical? Somehow I don't think telling him he's fag will convince him of his firearms knowledge.

Nathan- I just might try that next time
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Old 23rd May 2004, 02:40 AM   #292
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7.62 NATO is a fair bit heavier, which is an important factor since you'll have to lug it around all day. Ask him (I assume he wants to see the M14 back as the service rifle) how comfortable and fun it is to carry it all day and then have to shoot it.

Of course, he'll probably pull some macho bullshit about how tough he is but oh anyway,

5.56 is ideal for the ranges usually experienced in combat. If you want something with a greater reach, then you use a DMR weapon in 7.62 NATO. The trouble with M855 is that people insist on shooting it from 14.5 inch barrel carbines, plus there's inconsistencies in yawing and fragmenting with the M855 in manufacturer's lots..

The new 77 grain Mk 262 Mod 0 and Mod 1 rounds are more accurate than the M855 and fragment at lower velocities as well. If all the troops had these rounds (a 14.5 inch barrel is a little too short: a 16-18 inch barrel plus collapsing buttstock AND the newer rounds would be ideal IMO), then there wouldn't be much of an issue in incapacitating people.

These rounds have recieved wide praise in Afghanistan and Iraq from units using them.

Look at the wound size difference of these pistol JHPs.

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/...panded_JHP.jpg

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/docgkr/...panded_JHP.jpg

Pistols tend to suck at incapacitating people compared with rifles or shotguns.
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Old 23rd May 2004, 03:05 AM   #293
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The .45 expands more than the others, does this help its wounding potential against unarmored targets?
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Old 23rd May 2004, 03:49 AM   #294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnam
Hehe, Jaunty, somehow I knew you would step up to the plate. Want to get more technical? Somehow I don't think telling him he's fag will convince him of his firearms knowledge.

Nathan- I just might try that next time
Well if you absolutely must win an argument, it's this simple.

I, jaunty, have provided my opinion. By virtue of it being my opinion, it cannot be wrong. My opinion is always correct. If one chooses to disagree with me, one is wrong. He disagrees with me. He is wrong.

This cannot fail.
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Old 23rd May 2004, 05:04 PM   #295
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Allright, so I've heard you guys say that stuff like "stopping power" is BS, but what makes one round more effective than another? Tissue damage? Wounding potential? Heh, as this guy said when I proposed that stopping power is BS, "if stopping power doesn't matter why not just use a 22LR then?"
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Old 24th May 2004, 02:30 AM   #296
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We object to the phrase since it implies that one round will magically "stop" a bad guy when people's reactions to be shot, both fatally and non-fatally vary considerably regardless of the round used. People may fail down and die, they may barely flinch, they may not feel anything or feel a lot of pain and so on.

It's estimated that 50% of times where someone is incapacitated by being shot, it was psychological.

Saying things like "This round has a 90% one round stopping rating" is idiotic and misguided. As I like to point out, how come there are numerous cases of allegedly the "best stopping power rounds" not killing someone after they've been shot 10+ times with them, or they didn't stop attacking despite those rounds destroying vital organs in the torso?

What makes rounds effective is their level of penetration (12 inches minimum to be able to reach the vital organs from all angles and through the arms), their amount of expansion if they are a JHP, and the level and penetration level (i.e when they start tumbling and when it is the greatest) of yawing, and fragmentation, if any.

You want ALL of those characteristics ideally in a round to cause enough blood loss so that their central nervous system stops working as soon as possible, or to destroy their CNS altogether i.e brain shot.

Shot placement is vital, true, but the ideal situation is adequate training, shot placement AND the best rounds in whatever calibre you're using for the job.

If that doesn't sink in for your friend, get some real-life wound ballistic data on him...
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Old 24th May 2004, 07:49 AM   #297
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Actually he says he's seen street shooting statistics that show that .45 kills much more frequently.

He also says the US military should be using .45 'Hydra Shok' rounds. Supposedly these have the best 'stopping power' of any handgun next to .357 magnum.
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Old 24th May 2004, 09:30 AM   #298
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He's an idiot. As I said, .45 has no penetration. Why the hell would the armed forces want a round with crap penetration when most of their targets are wearing some sort of protection?
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Old 25th May 2004, 05:37 AM   #299
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Gnam- more people die from .22s than any other calibre in the US from memory, ask him (since he mentioned .22s in the first place) if they should be used instead.

The Hydrashok rounds were top of the line 10-15 years ago. There are JHP rounds which penetrate deeper, both in tissue and through barriers and expand much more reliably than the old Hydrashoks now, the best performing JHP round in .45 ACP being the Ranger Talon RA9T IIRC.
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Old 4th Jun 2004, 12:00 AM   #300
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Zund and Meplat......I forgot to update you about a month ago, on the Rock River M4 upper......you were right about the buffer. I really didn't give it that much thought until you suggested that. I called the guy and had him call the armorer that put it together. He took it back over and guess what? Wrong buffer. Buffer replaced, and fixed. Thanks much for the suggestions and info. Works like a friggin dream now.
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