US tax money goes where?

Well wether we pay or fight to win, we are going to win,and the nay sayer dems have no right to think taking away the chance for people to be people in iraq are the same ol, MeMeMe concept.
Regardless of my opinion, nor Bush, one thiong that trumps the terrorists, they can't offer a wholle frickin country instant money like we have , and or spend.

Call it done, so you libs-dems better now start bbashing the right things, to take over, cause your gonna loose.;
(if not allready, pending on this iraq election, so conceded to think you all know whats good for everyone else, but act so contrary to the facts.)

I consider Iraq a screaming success. They have a Constitution and will be electing a Constitutional government tomorrow. That took less than 3 years. This country took 7-8 years to hash out a Constitution. It took over 10 years to stabilize Germany and Japan after WW2. Taking out a murderous dictator and planting the seeds of Democracy in an area surrounded by tyranny is a good thing. You can't start a fire without a spark. Stop being blinded by your hatred and just accept the fact that Iraq is a success.

Eyuva 'S' NRG said:

No way similar. Really?

Iraq War : US Soldiers are dying
Vietnam : US Soldiers died

Iraq War : President has no clear objective for victory
Vietnam : President had no clear objective for victory

Iraq War : Failure to find objective (weapons of mass destruction)
Vietnam : Just a failure, period.

Cat Fuzz, I can easily find similarities, but then again, I have an IQ of 140.

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You missed one major difference, we are winning this time. Isn't victory an objective? How else can it be spelled out? How is what we have done so far not considered winning? Iraq has a Constitution, they are electing a Constitutional government tomorrow. Saddam Hessein is in jail. People aren't being murdered by the thousands and thrown into mass graves. People in surrounding tyrannical nations will see the benefits of having a free society and will want the same. History shows that people want to be free. Iraq is a first step toward freedom for the middle-east and when they have freedom terrorism will end.

Soldiers dying? This is nothing new. http://www.dior.whs.mil/mmid/casualty/Death_Rates.pdf
There is a slight dip in military deaths during Clinton's years but then during his term everything was right with the world (actually, he ignored alot of the worlds problems and his media butt buddies were happy to help out). You would think there would be a massive spike, but there really isn't. Yeah, deaths are higher than 5 years ago, but go back 10-15 years and you can see things are running about average. Soldiers die. Its sad, but they knew what they were doing when they signed up.

Cat Fuzz said:

You missed one major difference, we are winning this time. Isn't victory an objective? How else can it be spelled out? How is what we have done so far not considered winning? Iraq has a Constitution, they are electing a Constitutional government tomorrow. Saddam Hessein is in jail. People aren't being murdered by the thousands and thrown into mass graves. People in surrounding tyrannical nations will see the benefits of having a free society and will want the same. History shows that people want to be free. Iraq is a first step toward freedom for the middle-east and when they have freedom terrorism will end.

Soldiers dying? This is nothing new. http://www.dior.whs.mil/mmid/casualty/Death_Rates.pdf
There is a slight dip in military deaths during Clinton's years but then during his term everything was right with the world (actually, he ignored alot of the worlds problems and his media butt buddies were happy to help out). You would think there would be a massive spike, but there really isn't. Yeah, deaths are higher than 5 years ago, but go back 10-15 years and you can see things are running about average. Soldiers die. Its sad, but they knew what they were doing when they signed up.

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It depends how you define winning. I dont define winning as occupying a country for several years while insurgents pick off our soldiers one by one. Didn't Hitler prove that occupying foreign nations was a poor investment. Honestly, it's not worth it to occupy minor countries for little or no return on the investment, while our soldiers get killed for lack of a decent reason.

You see, I was watching the news the whole time when we invaded Iraq. I was eagerly awaiting the finding of the first weapons of mass destruction that everyone was chomping at the bit to find, because that is why we invaded in the first place. The mission failed, there were no weapons of mass destruction found, in the end, we invaded a small nation with a marginally effective army, and we are paying the price during the occupation. As long as we occupy Iraq, we will continue to suffer drastic financial losses and military losses as well.

We could easily invest the same amount of time, energy, money, and manpower that we are currently in Iraq, on the homefront instead. I say, we should be investing in our own country, making this country an economic powerhouse instead.

Oh and going to Mars, is like building the Pyramids Cat Fuzz, there is something called prestige, it's the stuff of great nations. You clearly DONT get it. Read the history books about all the great powers throughout mankinds history, study what made those countries great. They didn't become great by reducing taxes and doing nothing with the money they dont have. In fact many great nations had great ambition and leaders with a vision, to accomplish great things. They didn't do that by sitting on their buts.

The problem, Cat Fuzz, that I have with Liberalism, is this. While they advocate spending money to achieve things, liberals lack a clear vision of greatness for this country with that money and resources, and that is why I find liberalism lackluster and uninspiring.

A great nation, has a leader with a vision, a vision to take and organize the resources of the country (taxes, manpower, resources), and turn it into something great. Read your history, many nations have done this in the past. I dont see anything GREAT, coming out of Geroge Bush's reign as president.

In modern times, politicians are too scared to have a "vision", and they cater to special interests and public opinion polls instead.

I want more from politicians than soundbites on tax cuts.

because we all know that military personel only die durring wartime.

Cat Fuzz said:

They have a Constitution and will be electing a Constitutional government tomorrow. That took less than 3 years. This country took 7-8 years to hash out a Constitution. It took over 10 years to stabilize Germany and Japan after WW2. Taking out a murderous dictator and planting the seeds of Democracy in an area surrounded by tyranny is a good thing. You can't start a fire without a spark.

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True.
But we can't compare Iraq with Germany or Japan. Germany was germany, but with the iraq thingie it affects a lot of the islam-countries (mainly the fundamentalists or just the anti-americans).
Planting seeds of democracy in an area surrounded by tyranny will make that area much more vulnerable and targetted. From the outside and the inside.

GMotha said:

True.
But we can't compare Iraq with Germany or Japan. Germany was germany, but with the iraq thingie it affects a lot of the islam-countries (mainly the fundamentalists or just the anti-americans).
Planting seeds of democracy in an area surrounded by tyranny will make that area much more vulnerable and targetted. From the outside and the inside.

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I disagree. The freedom and prosperity that come with having a free society will spread because the people of other surrounding nations will want the same thing.

Well I heard yesterday an iraqi lady say somthing like "it is very good thing, and BUSH and us and thanks to BUSH, and those that say somthing different can goto hell"

Wish I had the exact quote but the dems are going down, down down.

I agree with Fuzz that we are making better progress than we did in Nam. One main reason for this, though, is the battlefield environment. In Nam, you had a dense jungle with endless hiding places, and you could set traps everywhere and dig tunnels. You can dig tunnels in the sand as well, but you have to shore up the tunnels with concrete. In Nam, you could just dig a tunnel and not wait to have truckloads of concrete delivered to the site.

You can’t hide out as well in the middle of a desolate desert. You can plant land mines, but in Nam, you could plant land mines, and other traps like trip wires, etc. to kill the enemy.

The Vietnamese were tenacious and their war machine slippery. We could bomb the crap out of a supply road, but that didn’t stop them. They would just load the supplies on bicycles and walk around the bombing craters. It’s like thinking we could stop the enemy by cutting off their electricity, but if they aren’t reliant on electricity like we are, you haven’t stopped anything. That’s where they were getting to us.

Now we fight in a concrete jungle. In some ways it’s easier, and in others, it’s more difficult. We can’t indiscriminately go in and napalm a tract of land where the enemy is hiding. But we can use surveillance more effectively since there is no jungle canopy.

Bottom line is, we could not fight the Vietnamese effectively because they played by different rules: they didn’t give up, weren’t chained down by technology, and mainly because they had a jungle to hide in. But you put those boys in a desert environment, and the tide of war sways in our favor.

I think what bothers people about the war in iraq is the reason why we’re really there. Throughout history, people have lived with dictators who torture their countrymen and who are a threat, but we haven't invaded their homeland to spark democracy. Why? Why would a country spend vast resources, lives, the threat of retaliation from other countries just to free its citizens? Why would a country such as the US think the world must be governed by democracy?

We went to iraq for the resources, the oil. We were at war with Bin Laden, and 911 was the excuse we were looking for to get our dirty hands into oil. If the country had no oil, do you really think we would have evaded it? Hell no! We knew iraq was no threat. If we didn’t what does that say about our intelligence?

Cat Fuzz said:

I disagree. The freedom and prosperity that come with having a free society will spread because the people of other surrounding nations will want the same thing.

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White Man's Burden.

Cat Fuzz said:

I consider Iraq a screaming success.

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I do not doubt that you do.

Cat Fuzz said:

That took less than 3 years. This country took 7-8 years to hash out a Constitution.

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I find it hysterical that you laughed off comparing Veitnam to Iraq a few posts back but you have no problem comparing the Birth of the United States to what is going on in Iraq. Look at the people we have being elected over there! Have you actually talked personally to anyone who has been in Iraq? Things may not be as utterly "The Road Warrior"-esque as some people are saying, but get the hell off this "screaming success" garbage. People like you make it sound like its been a smooth ride in a Dodge Viper when we're actually tumbling through a barricade in a shot to shiit Chevy with human flesh and stone wedged into the grill. Yeah, it's slightly better now than it has been when we first entered, but when you people say things like "screaming success" I just wanna grab your head and shake you. We have A LOT more to do there before anyone should be even remotely mouthing the words "Success" or "Victory". Mission Accomplished anyone? I swear to crap, you are only allowed a certain number of premature ejaculations before she calls it a night.

Cat Fuzz said:

Taking out a murderous dictator and planting the seeds of Democracy in an area surrounded by tyranny is a good thing. You can't start a fire without a spark.

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I agree here, we should be focusing on taking down these people. Letting this shiit slide is exactly how we got stuck with WW2 in the first place.

However, I still believe targetting Iraq was total bullshiit. We haven't even protected the homeland from the same situations that led to 911 or captured its number one perpurtrator. There are countries out there with far worse atrocities going on and leaders who are far more dangerous, but Iraq...yes Iraq...just happened to be where we decided to start. Yeah we are there now and we can't leave, but don't for a damn moment tell everyone to smile and like it.

Cat Fuzz said:

Stop being blinded by your hatred and just accept the fact that Iraq is a success.

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I'd tell you to stop being blinded by your trust in the republican party and smile with satisfaction as they cram their meat stick up your rectum, but that would make me sound like a Nazi Liberal, right?

My point: People have a right to be pissed as hell at this administration. They have fu<ked up a lot. A LOT. They should deserve our skepticism even if things were peachy, it's called the American way.

QUALTHWAR said:

I think what bothers people about the war in iraq is the reason why we’re really there. Throughout history, people have lived with dictators who torture their countrymen and who are a threat, but we haven't invaded their homeland to spark democracy. Why? Why would a country spend vast resources, lives, the threat of retaliation from other countries just to free its citizens? Why would a country such as the US think the world must be governed by democracy?

We went to iraq for the resources, the oil. We were at war with Bin Laden, and 911 was the excuse we were looking for to get our dirty hands into oil. If the country had no oil, do you really think we would have evaded it? Hell no! We knew iraq was no threat. If we didn’t what does that say about our intelligence?

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Exactly :tup:

Man everything is loading slow.

We didn't go there for the oil.
Younger pepole and others in Iran, want american things, seen a cnn journalist who secretly interviewed, people,teengers in Iran.

The people in Iraq definitly do not want a sadaam style preasure to live under that type of thing anymore.

Also,, they made neighbors spy on each other and rat on them, but nooo usa is bad.

There was 12 resolutions before bush was in office, all the way back to 1990, the war was legal.

The things that were known, before bush was in office, is a fact , but for some reason the left freaks can't figure that out.

And if things were like the ways of howard dean and the like, it's like we could of just invaded for the hell of it (any country) just to take their oil and any other country we felt like invading.

You guys are not just "left" or whatever, how you all can ignore logic is exactly why they won't win elections.
Or have any good platform to run on that is not nausiating.

Hey, I got things I'm not happy about regarding the Repubs. Passing that Medicare prescription farce in one big one as well as immigration not being handled properly.

We ARE succeeding in Iraq. The Iraqi people were celebrating today, brandishing fingers stained with finger print ink and thanking America for giving them the opportunity to vote. Get your collective heads out of Clintons ass and get over it.

the war in Iraq is NOTHING compared to Vietnam.

like Q said, the environments are different.


our troops are better trained and equpied to handle uban warfare.



not once have i seen someone explain why we are losing the war. or what the cause is for us losing this war.

"OH AMERICAN IS LOSING! WE NEED TO GET OUT!" why are we losing?
what consititues losing at this moment in time in RE. to this war?

loss of life is NOT losing.
the fighting in Fallujah was harsh, but intercepted raidio and cell phone communications revealed the insurgents were mostly complaining about not being able to act accodingly due to the quickness and preparedness of the US military.

GoAt said:

loss of life is NOT losing.
.

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You talk about loss of life like you lost a pair of socks. That's the problem with politicians, they talk like people are cattle. Oh, we only lost 2000 soldiers, no big deal.

But compare it to usa citizens , of how many of who dies from daily life things, in the past 2.5 years.
just usa mind you, car crashes, and so on.

I think I heard In vietnam they were loosing 1000 a month.

Besides, Bush had the trade towers,afganastan,2 very hefty hurricans, and invading iraq, plus other things.

What did clinton have?, a head job.talk about not caring.

Cat Fuzz said:

I disagree. The freedom and prosperity that come with having a free society will spread because the people of other surrounding nations will want the same thing.

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I wish it'd be that easy.
In some of those surrounding countries the governements (or whatever's in charge) won't allow to loosen their grip that easy. Tyranny usually means that the people fear their leaders, and few have the courage to step up, but are mostly extremely outnumbered. Most of them are pretty used to this way of life, and some are not prepared to give it up (that's mainly why there's still resistance in iraq). And some fear that the american influence might eventually supress their own culture and/or religion.

Eyuva 'S' NRG said:

You talk about loss of life like you lost a pair of socks. That's the problem with politicians, they talk like people are cattle. Oh, we only lost 2000 soldiers, no big deal.

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so i guess america has lost every war it has participated in...

we've had "losses" in every war. such is the nature of war. victory, freedom, etc., etc. comes at a price.

wich reminds me, now they are saying "how do you define victory ?" , man, it just makes Bush stronger anyway.

Damn rediculas idiots dems pffft, disgusting, I am more disgusted with them than any other factor, surrounding ; the war; the border; tax cuts; get rid of that nancey polouzy, howard dean types, and mabye they might gain some respect back from me.oh and kenedy babbling idiots.