ACORN is at it again.(Investigation underway)

aclu is anti american?
Are you an idiot? (yes, you are)

On a side note-It is very disappointing when I watched the local news tonight and checked their websites to find nothing.Geez.Is everyone in the tank for obama?

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The answer to this question is Yes.

DeeperShade said:

aclu is anti american?
Are you an idiot? (yes, you are)

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You must be God, on account of your self-fulfilling questions and such.

While ACORN is particularly relevant due to it's associations with the Obama campaign, and links to the economic crisis I think it's focus detracts from the larger problem. The voter registration system sucks, and it needs a complete redo. Far too many people are voting that shouldn't, or are voting more than once. Then other registrations are trashed in an effort to get rid of bad voter registrations.

I'd like to be able to get online and see my voting history to be sure that nothing got screwed up. There should be stricter laws imposed that make it harder to commit voter fraud while making registration less of a hastle so that more people actually vote. The list could go on and on.

TWD, notice the tag added to this thread and the lack of posts. If it's anti-Obama and good points are raised, you can count on the responses being minimal or practically non-existent. Obama Messiah and his disciples can do no wrong!!!

Iron Archer said:

TWD, notice the tag added to this thread and the lack of posts. If it's anti-Obama and good points are raised, you can count on the responses being minimal or practically non-existent. Obama Messiah and his disciples can do no wrong!!!

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That's really lame.

1) You're trying to raise TWD's partisan hackles when he has, very wisely, just identified the actual problem there: that the system is generally imperfect. Despite you automatically accentuating the anti-Obama spin on it, it's the system that can be faulty, which has led to abuses from both sides - multiple registrations versus not allowing people to vote because the ID requirements are too harsh. But for you of course, we should be saying that it's Obama's fault.

2) You act as if it's a point of some merit, that with the majority here being Obama supporters, more people wouldn't jump on a thread that is going to be anti-Obama (although again: that's more the spin you've decided to go with). Why're you getting off on stating the obvious?

3) The thread was posted by someone who's very anti-Obama and has been seen to post any old rubbish and generally be a total zealot. It was hardly likely to rock people's worlds that he posted something.

Phoenix, you can roost about this not having any attachment to Obama all you want, but the fact is that the man has deep roots with ACORN. Heck, he used to help raise and distribute ACORN monies. His campaign has given lots of money to ACORN. It does not make him guilty, not even by association, but it does lend itself to raising doubt about his choice of affiliates.

What this comes down to, however, is voter fraud. No, I do not believe that the Obama campaign, or the McCain campaign for that matter, are guilty of contributing to voter fraud. What I do believe is that an organization that has has extremely close ties to a Presidential candidate is guilty of voter fraud.

This issue is nothing new with ACORN; they were found guilty of fraud and tampering in 2006. And just last month, after pleading guilty to voter registration fraud, one of the organization heads admitted that local ACORN chapter employees could not be reigned in to prevent or stop these lawbreaking actions. According to one ACORN leader, the organization does not condone these actions but has little control over what the individual local employees are doing in the name of ACORN. In other words, they are saying that the damage has been done and there's no way to fix it at this point. It's true that there is no time left to re-register everyone and get absentee ballots resent, etc. In my opinion, if Obama does win the election, that win could be tainted by these voter fraud allegations. I would expect that almost by default, there will be automatic recounts in all these states where ACORN has been pushing questionable tactics.

Ban electronic voting.

Crotale said:

Phoenix, you can roost about this not having any attachment to Obama all you want, but the fact is that the man has deep roots with ACORN. Heck, he used to help raise and distribute ACORN monies. His campaign has given lots of money to ACORN. It does not make him guilty, not even by association, but it does lend itself to raising doubt about his choice of affiliates.

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Oh yeah ? Well, I guess Snow White here has done nothing wrong :

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2003-12-05-diebold-money-to-bush_x.htm

First of all, the entire Presidential electoral process sucks. Let's not bother touching that one at all because that's a worthwhile discussion.

Second of all, for every link you give me to a article claiming Barack Obama has direct ties to ACORN, I'll send you one saying he isn't. Some of you want to try and be the new Woodward or Bernstein by saying "HEY LOOK AT THIS" but unfortunately with things like these it's not the information that's readily available that makes the biggest waves because...yeah, it's partisan trash-digging. Just like Azura's links above this post.

(Jeez, where did all the right-wingers come from on this board? Is there some sort of political osmosis concept that hasn't been investigated?)

Crotale said:

It does not make him guilty, not even by association, but it does lend itself to raising doubt about his choice of affiliates.

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...which would be guilt by association.

Also, it would be pathetic: ACORN is not an inherently corrupt organisation by any means, deciding that the instances where it's gone wrong means that the entire multi-faceted framework is wrong is absolute rubbish - as is trying to negatively tie Obama to something that happens on the fringes of an organisation with a benevolent aim.

In my opinion, if Obama does win the election, that win could be tainted by these voter fraud allegations. I would expect that almost by default, there will be automatic recounts in all these states where ACORN has been pushing questionable tactics.

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It's possible that it could taint it, but with a 6.6 point lead (RCP) that seems to be growing, it may not be that significant.

But again, framing it as being purely a one sided push to get more votes is entirely wrong and is why I reject what you said - the other side have been actively trying to deny people the right to vote in order to favour them for a long time.

hal said:

Fun fact: ACORN receives public funding. You're all linked to ACORN! ZING!

Your tax dollars hard at work!

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thank you

_Zd_Phoenix_ said:

...which would be guilt by association.

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Wrong. Obama is not not guilty by association. There's no proof that he had any part whatsoever in these alleged or proven wrongdoings. I'm referring to legal precedence.

Also, it would be pathetic: ACORN is not an inherently corrupt organisation by any means, deciding that the instances where it's gone wrong means that the entire multi-faceted framework is wrong is absolute rubbish - as is trying to negatively tie Obama to something that happens on the fringes of an organisation with a benevolent aim.

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Benevolent aim? Maybe. But their own voter registration processes are questionable at best. If the head organization cannot admittedly keep a grip on its own local chapters, then the organization as a whole has failed. This being a contemptuous point for me since ACORN itself has been aware of this current string of injustices for over a month and has apparently chosen to do nothing. They have had plenty of time to attempt correcting these issues. Maybe some don't have a problem with this since their guy is the likely victor regardless of election wrongdoings, but this should be a thorn in any honest voter's side. IMNSHO, this should be a concern of ALL voters in this election, irrespective of their political leanings.

It's possible that it could taint it, but with a 6.6 point lead (RCP) that seems to be growing, it may not be that significant.

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It isn't about how many votes you win by, but the fact that some precincts in battleground states have been potentially tainted by allegations and, in some cases, proof of voter fraud. The mere impropriety alone can allude to reasonable doubt in the minds of many. One must remember how fragile our little minds can be when it comes to the general populous.

But again, framing it as being purely a one sided push to get more votes is entirely wrong and is why I reject what you said - the other side have been actively trying to deny people the right to vote in order to favour them for a long time.

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I have heard of some alleged Republican push to prevent some citizens from voting, but where is the proof? Harp all you want on that, but there is undeniable proof that ACORN has broken laws, and they admitted to doing so. And that is the issue currently at hand.

As Hal stated, ACORN receives public funding. Should we not expect better from such an organization? Where is the outrage? Oh, but you all can express serious outrage against some idiot soldier who tossed a dead puppy but you can't bother with showing some resentment against voter fraud.

hal said:

Fun fact: ACORN receives public funding. You're all linked to ACORN! ZING!

Your tax dollars hard at work!

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I feel so deflated, cheap and used.

Crotale said:

I have heard of some alleged Republican push to prevent some citizens from voting, but where is the proof? Harp all you want on that, but there is undeniable proof that ACORN has broken laws, and they admitted to doing so. And that is the issue currently at hand.

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I think by "long time" he meant over the course of history with any kind of electoral process.

The silly thing is that the most republicans have done to prevent people from voting is voter purges. Ironically the reason they do this is to fight against voter fraud... I find it amusing when people go around in this circle. Republicans purge registrations because there is fraud, and Dems commit fraud because the Republicans purge registrations.

_Zd_Phoenix_ said:

It's possible that it could taint it, but with a 6.6 point lead (RCP) that seems to be growing, it may not be that significant.
.

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yea, well hell, since he currently has a 6.6 point lead we should just ignore voter fraud...

kiff said:

yea, well hell, since he currently has a 6.6 point lead we should just ignore voter fraud...

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Why bother voting at all? If people already think he's going to win, that must mean he will, right?

Other than that, I don't think the impact ACORN would have, if any, would be significant enough to sway an election either way. Even then, unless there's solid proof that the election was fixed, there's always a chance the Supreme Court could still f*ck something up.

Ok, let's get things straight, because sense has just gone and flown out of the window.

Crotale said:

But their own voter registration processes are questionable at best. If the head organization cannot admittedly keep a grip on its own local chapters, then the organization as a whole has failed.

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All of you seem to be listening to unbecoming here, which is total madness. He said it himself, he doesn't want to post the links because he'd be accused of bias. Also, several of you don't seem to know what this registration process involves.

I have no doubt that there are people who work for ACORN that try to subvert registration, however, I'm only talking about a limited problem, and the reason I'm talking about a limited problem is because of the mechanisms of registration.

As ACORN themselves have had to point out to the media before, they HAVE to turn over every form to election officials after trying to authenticate them, whether flagged as blatantly fraudulent or not. ACORN themselves are the ones who identify most of the fraudulent forms, before passing them over - including most of the ones that are individually highlighted in news stories and yet these still end up being used as propaganda that ACORN are passing along fraudulent forms.

Talking about voter fraud by the organisation - what a complete load. This is one function of a multi-tiered organisation and it's a function that's doing something positive - registering people to vote.

The idea that they commit mass fraud is bollocks - where's the substantiated evidence for that? The very system works against that - for all its imperfections, it is not a flimsy process - again, most of the anecdotal stories fail to mention that ACORN has flagged the application but is compelled to pass it on anyway, for a second round of vetting.

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Crotale said:

I have heard of some alleged Republican push to prevent some citizens from voting, but where is the proof? Harp all you want on that, but there is undeniable proof that ACORN has broken laws, and they admitted to doing so.

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The proof of Republican blocks that I'm 'harping on' about (so sorry for mentioning a valid point TWICE - bloody hell) lies in the many people that should be able to vote that have been struck off or been denied and that ACORN has had to fight to reinstate. The list of their successes in righting this is not a short one.

Where, on the other hand, is this 'undeniable' proof that ACORN itself - and not just individuals early on in the process - has broken laws that show this intent to commit fraud? Because this undeniable proof hasn't been produced anywhere I can find and hasn't been proven in a court of law. I'm wondering what sense of 'undeniable' this might be.

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TWD said:

The silly thing is that the most republicans have done to prevent people from voting is voter purges. Ironically the reason they do this is to fight against voter fraud... I find it amusing when people go around in this circle. Republicans purge registrations because there is fraud, and Dems commit fraud because the Republicans purge registrations.

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I find it amusing that you actually wrote that in all seriousness, as if it wasn't totally biased. Ah yes, the oh so perfectly intentioned Republicans and the fraudulent Democrats - pffft. As I said, there are flaws in the system that can be abused for both sides - the mechanisms are run by the parties, which gives them an unwarranted influence.

You spin it as the Republicans purge because the Dems* are committing fraud - how about, the Dems are pushing to register people that the Republicans scandalously wish to deny the vote. See, I can totally skew it as well.

*btw, however closely ACORN tends to work with the Democrats on this issue, ACORN is an NGO and not a subsidiary of the Democratic party.

Crotale said:

Wrong. Obama is not not guilty by association. There's no proof that he had any part whatsoever in these alleged or proven wrongdoings. I'm referring to legal precedence.

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I'm referring to guilt by association as it's been levelled at Obama throughout the whole Ayers thing (both times through) - i.e. Obama is painted in a certain light for being associated with someone or something, no matter how loosely the word associated applies.

kiff said:

yea, well hell, since he currently has a 6.6 point lead we should just ignore voter fraud...

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I don't really know what to say after that. Did I say anything at all like 'we should ignore voter fraud'? No. So I have to wonder what the hell you're doing saying that.

_Zd_Phoenix_ said:

Ok, let's get things straight, because sense has just gone and flown out of the window.

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And you sir are missing the point. ACORN as a whole is responsible for the operations of their local chapters and those who work for those chapters. Period. As recent as last month, ACORN was found to have used prison inmates from a halfway house to register voters. According to Nevada law, prisoners are not allowed access to personal data of any kind. The fact that these people were collecting very personal information such as birth dates and social security numbers shows that ACORN thinks itself to be above the law, since it clearly feels it to be acceptable to operate there. And that is only one chapter of ACORN in one state that has I've addressed as problematic. Consider the ramifications of a nationwide problem.

While it is true that these registration forms are verified by local officials, who knows what other games are at play in the local Government offices. This entire affair reeks of impropriety and calls into question the legitimacy of our election process. For record, I hope I'm wrong about this whole ACORN "mess."

The problem I have with this thread is those who would readily dismiss this as some Republican propaganda. Oh, if the shoe were one the other foot...