State terrorism

JaFO · Dec 13, 2001

Originally posted by RogueLeader
I think it's black and white? Who here claims that this is a us vs. them case? Who supports Bush's "you are with us or you are with the terrorists" policy?

You kind of claimed that 'we should have seen this coming' ...

"At the time Hitler was chosen(!) nobody in the world would have guessed what kind of evil that bastard could do."
I have essays from the WSM of Britain warning that he was a danger.

I'm sure there were equally valid reports that said that Hitler wasn't that big a threat.
Only now do we realise that Hitler was a clear & present danger at that time.
It's always after the disaster happened that we do see the danger. Before that time it is all just another paranoid fantasy.

"At the time the USA decided to support Saddam, it looked like they were supporting the lesser of two evils."
Democracy vs. brutal dictatorship...I'd pick the former. We didn't care back then about what was right, only about what helped us. Here we are decades later it came back to haunt us. The lesson we should learn is to not try to suppress other countries' democracy.

1) If you're as big & powerful as the USA you will influence people even by *not* interfering.

2) Democracy vs Dictatorship ...
It might suck for the people being oppressed, but I think it's better to have real 'brutal' dictatorship than a democracy that's little more than a front for a dictatorship (ie one where intimidation tactics are used to win the elections).
Democracies only work if there are no real problems, because they tend to go for compromises instead of real solutions to problems.

MetalMickey · Dec 13, 2001

You kind of claimed that 'we should have seen this coming' ...

America has bombed 19 of the worlds poorest nations since WWII. Of course there was a possibility that some faction may have planned an attack. The scale maybe, was unpredictable.

2) Democracy vs Dictatorship ...
It might suck for the people being oppressed, but I think it's better to have real 'brutal' dictatorship than a democracy that's little more than a front for a dictatorship (ie one where intimidation tactics are used to win the elections).
Democracies only work if there are no real problems, because they tend to go for compromises instead of real solutions to problems.

Read that over. Are you ****ing nuts or what?

JaFO · Dec 13, 2001

Originally posted by MetalMickey

America has bombed 19 of the worlds poorest nations since WWII. Of course there was a possibility that some faction may have planned an attack. The scale maybe, was unpredictable.

but that's the problem isn't it ?
You know someone is going to give you an 'answer' sometime if you keep pushing people/states like that ... it is the scale of that answer that is difficult to predict.
And as the incident made all too clear : you don't need a large army to do this much damage nowadays.
You could try to build a wall around your country and hide behind it, but all that would get you is a different enemy ... and then you really would be your own worst nightmare ...

// democracy vs dictatorship ...
Read that over. Are you ****ing nuts or what?

Democracy isn't all that good, nice & proper ...
It can be as evil & downright oppressive as any dictatorship as you can't argue with the 'majority'.
Add to this the fact that most democracies are run by a minority instead of a majority ... (how many people actually voted for Bush in that democratic republic of yours ?)

MetalMickey · Dec 13, 2001

but that's the problem isn't it ?
You know someone is going to give you an 'answer' sometime if you keep pushing people/states like that ... it is the scale of that answer that is difficult to predict.
And as the incident made all too clear : you don't need a large army to do this much damage nowadays.
You could try to build a wall around your country and hide behind it, but all that would get you is a different enemy ... and then you really would be your own worst nightmare ...

Theres a lot of truth in that. So how do you make terrorist attack less of a threat? Removing the root causes for these groups to attack might be an idea.

2) Democracy vs Dictatorship ...
It might suck for the people being oppressed, but I think it's better to have real 'brutal' dictatorship than a democracy that's little more than a front for a dictatorship (ie one where intimidation tactics are used to win the elections).
Democracies only work if there are no real problems, because they tend to go for compromises instead of real solutions to problems.

I'll address this again. You must remember that the "oppression" you speak of is not the same as "opression" in the west. We are not talking about opression on a scale where one section of society has trouble finding employment, or is too heavily taxed. We are talking about large scale state sponsored murder. Go read up on what happened in Guatemala. At least one hundred thousand people tortured and murder by a government on the CIA payroll.

I can think of NO circumstance where a superpower installed dictatorship is preferable to a government elected by the majority of the people of a nation. Its preferable to the superpower obviously.

RogueLeader · Dec 13, 2001

You kind of claimed that 'we should have seen this coming' ...

That isn't black and white, it's obvious. When you go around overthrowing legitimate governments, people start disliking you. And when those people you know hate you threaten to bomb you, logically you should be careful. And even more so when they have twice before.

I'm sure there were equally valid reports that said that Hitler wasn't that big a threat.
Only now do we realise that Hitler was a clear & present danger at that time.
It's always after the disaster happened that we do see the danger. Before that time it is all just another paranoid fantasy.

The only people who were in favor of Hitler were the rich and the powerful who wanted fascism to stop communists from attaining workers' rights. Are you aware that there was an attempted fascist coup in the United States while Roosevelt was in office?

1) If you're as big & powerful as the USA you will influence people even by *not* interfering.

Voluntary influence is not the same as coercive military force.

2) Democracy vs Dictatorship ...
It might suck for the people being oppressed, but I think it's better to have real 'brutal' dictatorship than a democracy that's little more than a front for a dictatorship (ie one where intimidation tactics are used to win the elections).
Democracies only work if there are no real problems, because they tend to go for compromises instead of real solutions to problems.

The democracies we overthrow are real ones. That is why we hate them. Take Guatamala for example. When they attained democracy, it meant that we couldn't control their government because now the people have a voice. The people wanted United Fruit to give back the land it stole from them, and the government did that, because it was a true democracy. We stopped that by setting up a dictatorship.

but that's the problem isn't it ?
You know someone is going to give you an 'answer' sometime if you keep pushing people/states like that ... it is the scale of that answer that is difficult to predict.
And as the incident made all too clear : you don't need a large army to do this much damage nowadays.
You could try to build a wall around your country and hide behind it, but all that would get you is a different enemy ... and then you really would be your own worst nightmare ...

Democracy isn't all that good, nice & proper ...
It can be as evil & downright oppressive as any dictatorship as you can't argue with the 'majority'.
Add to this the fact that most democracies are run by a minority instead of a majority ... (how many people actually voted for Bush in that democratic republic of yours ?)

Click to expand...

All states are dictatorships to a point, the means of oppression by the ruling class. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't strive to have the most free state possible. Democratic Republics may not be full democracies, and may not be fully free, but they are still better than dictatorships.

JaFO · Dec 13, 2001

Originally posted by RogueLeader

Voluntary influence is not the same as coercive military force.

Wasn't the USA 'neutral' (ie non-interfering) before they entered WW2 ?
Did it prevent the Japanese from attacking the USA ?

RogueLeader · Dec 13, 2001

No, the U.S. was waging economic war on the Japanese before Pearl Harbor. This clearly signaled to the Japanese that America was an enemy. Therefore they knew that the U.S. would oppose their imperialist drive for territory, and therefore they tried to take it out first. Also, sealing off a major Japanese market made their drive for territory more imperative.

Dupre · Dec 13, 2001

Originally posted by RogueLeader
No, the U.S. was waging economic war on the Japanese before Pearl Harbor. This clearly signaled to the Japanese that America was an enemy. Therefore they knew that the U.S. would oppose their imperialist drive for territory, and therefore they tried to take it out first. Also, sealing off a major Japanese market made their drive for territory more imperative.

No, the Japanese were in the process of invading China and numerous islands of the Pacific. The U.S. was supplying aid to the Nationalist party of China at that time and the denial of war material was in response to the growing threat of Japanese conquest of the Pacific. Still, Japan managed to import quite a bit of resources from the U.S. under the guise of civilian commodities (i.e. Ford automobile parts which were subsequently melted for steel) up until the point of Pearl Harbor.

But that's a moot point. If the United States had taken a position of complete, utter isolationism and abandoned its allies in China and Australia, Japan would have conquered the Pacific and then attacked the United States.

The Pacific theatre of World War II was initiated by Japan.

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State terrorism

JaFO

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MetalMickey

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JaFO

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MetalMickey

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RogueLeader

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JaFO

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RogueLeader

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Dupre

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