UT2007: More things Epic needs to do right.

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Dark Pulse

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I've been mostly quiet on my UT2007 Opinions after posting my last marathon post about it, but while looking at another topic here again, my mind got going. Once again, like that thread, this started out as a response, but once again outgrew the "response" portion and as such I've made it a topic in and of itself.

Without further ado once more, here we go.

Weapons

Impact Hammer: Good start already. None of this sissy "Pull up the Shield and run away ****" makes this a more offensive-charged game. The trick here is in finding a good use for the Secondary - while it's neat that this could deflect rockets and the like, it wasn't used very much.

Enforcers
: Well, these are already Dual Enforcers, which is too bad really, because being able to pick up a second enforcer and go John Woo on everybody was VERY cool. I'd say limit the dual enforcers to 13 damage per gun - making it a effective damage of 26 if both bullets hit. Unless both guns fire at once, like the Ass rifles (Which sucks, by the way) in which case, make it about 20 per hit. Secondary fire, just like UT's. I've won a fair amount of fights against superior-armed opponents by going Gangsta on them, and it also gives you a sidearm that's useful and doesn't suck, though the Ass Rifle is good if you can hit people with Grenades. But that's not most people, now is it?

Shock Rifle: Change the Shock ROF to how it was in UT, about one shot every .75 seconds. Keep the damage at 45. This way, it's still a weapon, still does good damage, but you can't exactly walk around and lay waste with it. It's a suppression weapon, not a primary gun. Then the Shock Core: I'd go with UT99's again here. It was a bit smaller and faster and harder to hit. Right now in 2kx it's almost too easy to do a combo. Combos? That's tough. On one hand, you have UT, where the radius was somewhat small, but if the combo was close to you, you were pretty much done. On the 2kx side, you got a larger combo, but it does less damage and can be somewhat more fair, because they tend not to kill you unless you're weak and/or they're right next to you. This is one area I'd keep the 2kx method of doing.

Link Gun: Primary needs to keep the same ROF, but the damage needs to be reduced. Think of the 99 Pulsegun. It fired fast, it was effective suppressive fire, but it wasn't cheap. As for the Secondary, it really needs to be beefed up a bit. It's almost noneffective on humans, because good ones will dodge, and it won't lock anyone down until they're on the ground, meaning you'd have to track them through the dodge effectively to lock them down. 99's "saw" method should return, but not as long, nor as damaging, I think. Obviously, the function for healing nodes/vehicles/linking should stay.

Stinger: Ahh, the old favorite. Primary Fire, as in Unreal, should be good enough, but possibly make the shards capable of headshots, assuming that a single shard does, say, 12 damage, and a headshot is simply damage*2 (Damage*4 with UDamage), that'd make a headshot with a shard 24 and 48, respectively. (After all, if a piece of glass was fired at your head at high speed, it'd probably kill you, no?) Altfire's going to be tough. Perhaps something like the Ripper in UT99, but it only bounces off walls 2-4x (Random) and then shatters.

Flak Cannon: Either a tighter Spread, or More shards. Keep everything else from 2kx. (35 Ammo, dissipation after 2 bounces)

Rocket Launcher: Now that enforcers are back, Rockets should have the bouncy grenade altfire returned to them. Max of 3 Rockets/3 Grenades loaded at once. Up the ammo to 36 or 42, or possibly 48. Still should be able to cluster rockets/grenades. Make Rockets able to be blown up by nearby heavy fire, like a shock combo or a Goliath Tank Round, like AVRiLs are. MAKE BOTS NOT ABLE TO SPLIT ROCKETS UNLESS HUMANS CAN TOO. :p

Sniper Rifle
: Here's a bitch. You need to make it visible, while still effective and damaging, as well as not cheap. So here's my ideas:
  • The bullet trail needs to be considerably bright or noticeable, even from a distance. 2k4's is a little quick and hard to catch.
  • The gun needs to be LOUD; think of a crack of thunder. Noise will encourage a wanna-be sniper to move, otherwise he'll get killed after sitting in one spot too long.
  • Headshots need to be more effective. :p This "Hit the Neckbone when the model is halfway through whatever animation is playing" crap sucks; because you get a lot of shots that SHOULD be headshots not hitting. Make the whole head the target.
  • Make the gun somewhat less accurate if it's not in a prone/crouched position?
AVRiL: Fine as it is, I think. It's not too powerful, it can be avoided, and as such it should stay just how it is.

Cannister Gun
: This is going to be tough, as we don't know what it looks like and this is all therefore merely conjecture. But here we go.
  • Primary Fire shoots the weapon; Altfire selects between Cannisters of Ammo (Like Unreal II's Grenade Launcher.)
  • For Bio: Holding Fire loads the gun Chamber with Tarydium Sludge; releasing fires.
  • For Spidermines: Holding fire triggers the painter that moves the mines manually. Please allow LESS mines out; 4-6 would be good and effective without being crazy.
  • For Grenades: Holding fire detonates.
Also, please think of a better name for the gun. ;)

Redeemer: Big boom, big explosion. If you're not in the direct blast area, but are hiding behind a nearby wall or something, perhaps your character should get concussed a bit, like in UC2 from certain weapons. After all... something that big, even if you didn't die, it should mess you up for a bit.

Target Painter
: I hope none of these level-specific hazards require you to stand still for two seconds and fire in a certain spot to trigger it. If it does, it'd BETTER be worth it, with some crazy, inventive death sequences for them, or it's simply not going to be used. It's a cool idea, but without cool ways to kill people with it, it's going to be a novelty that nobody will use 3 months later.

Gametypes


DM: Typical stuff. Make it nice, make it varied. Give us some of the old UT feel of run-down industrial stuff PLEASE. Less Egyptian crap.

CTF: Make some maps use Vehicles extensively, some maps use them a bit, and here's the clincher - some maps NOT AT ALL. I know some people who would be saddened if every CTF map used vehicles. I wouldn't, but I can see their position on this.

Unreal Warfare/Conquest: Honestly, I think Conquest is the better name, but you're the boss. Please don't make Conquest just "Onslaught X2." At the same time, don't make it "Assault X2" either. It needs to be a blend of objective taking (AS) with strategic camp placement (ONS) and a little bit of RTS goodness thrown in. If you haven't looked at it yet, take a look at the Siege Mod for some potential ideas. Just don't make it MASSIVELY RTS-based - remember, this is UT; Fast Action, Fast Vehicles, and Badass Weapons that make lots of noise and explosions are the name of the game. Also, make sure that if a team is behind, it's not impossible for them to come back. Which brings me to my next point...

Onslaught: Most of the 2k4 Maps for Onslaught, in terms of being able to come back, SUCK. I play Onslaught competitively, and nearly all of the maps that get played are ones where there's multiple links and the like, or multiple paths to take. A map like ArcticStronghold is just plain ruined if the Redeemer is on, plus once you get all three center nodes, unless you **** up, you've basically won. A map like Dawn, on the other hand, is probably one of the best competitive maps: It takes a lot of work to shut down BOTH of the opposing Team's Primary Nodes, and even then they got a good chance of being able to slap you silly and rebuild. Maps like Dria also work well: It's huge, and even though there's that twin-link to the single node problem, the distance makes up for most of it. (Just don't give them potentially 2 tanks to use against it; that generally sucks and is how Dria tends to turn once a primary goes down.)

On the other hand, however, you've said you can make maps about 3x the size of Dria, which would make that sort of tactic extremely uneffective, as it'd take about 5-8 minutes in and of itself just to get across the map that way - a lot of work for very little payoff. In short, keep the smaller maps more like Dawn, where a team is usually never completely out of the running, and make the larger maps more like Dria, with lots of links and extremely large sizes.

Other Modes: MAKE JAILBREAK A STOCK GAMETYPE. It deserves it. Seriously. :)



And that draws this post to a close. Like before, your ideas, opinions, and feedback are appreciated.
 

Random Elite

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Face 4: Instead of 2 towers, 2 ships have landed and act as the bases. Numerous caverns with weapons and a hill can be used to defend the ship, like it had crashed and had forced the terrian up with the impact. Make the asteroid at least 4 times bigger, and variants for (V)CTF and ONS. The ships would be a Liandri Battleship and a Necris equivilant.

Then Face 5 for UW/Conquest, where it takes place on a moon/planetoid, instead of 1 random asteroid, and you battle for control of the whole thing, again with each base being Liandri or Necris in apperance.

Face 4 Alt and Face 5 Alt, were the tech swaps around, ie if red was playing Liandri, the alt map would give them Necris machines.
 

Dark Pulse

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That's not what the scope of this topic is about, Random Elite. It's about gametypes and weapon balances.

That and Face has sucked ever since Face II. But it's still a UT "signature" map, and one I'd play if it were done right.
 

Fuzzle

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I'm hoping they take the stinger feature from UC2 where if you hold down primary long enough, it "heats up" and starts shooting faster. I think the damage of each shard is encreased as well (as suggested by the shards starting to glow purple) but I'm not sure.

It's very satisfying, as if it "loosens up". It gives you that nice rawr-feeling, and it introduces the possibility of a tradeoff where you can waste ammo by holding fire even while you're not hitting anything.
 

Selerox

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Not so sure about that at all...

Dark Pulse said:
CTF: Make some maps use Vehicles extensively, some maps use them a bit, and here's the clincher - some maps NOT AT ALL. I know some people who would be saddened if every CTF map used vehicles. I wouldn't, but I can see their position on this.

Keep vehicles the **** out of stock CTF. Make extra maps for vCTF, but if >10% of the overall CTF maps have vehicles in, I'll be seriously, seriously ****ed off. Ideally vCTF should be a seperate gametype completely and not even touch on traditional CTF. It may have flags, but it's an utterly different gametype.

Also, wtf are you on about for the Link primary? It's an utterly useless weapon mode right now, surely it should be made more useful (note that I don't nessesarily mean more powerful). If you drop the power, it'll be a non-weapon for anything other than ONS. You may as well remove it from the game completely and just make it ONS-only :tdown:

As for the sniper rifle? Dump it. Replace with the Lightning Gun, just like virtually everyone wants.
 

Fuzzle

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I like link primary :(
I use it more than mini and rockets. The only thing that stops me from using it is if people start complaining about how spammy it is. I'd rather just use mini than listen to people's moaning and whining.

Edit: or find another server I guess. But because of my limited server selection that's not always a luxury I posess.
 
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UnrealGrrl

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Jun 16, 2000
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Selerox said:
Keep vehicles the **** out of stock CTF. Make extra maps for vCTF, but if >10% of the overall CTF maps have vehicles in, I'll be seriously, seriously ****ed off. Ideally vCTF should be a seperate gametype completely and not even touch on traditional CTF. It may have flags, but it's an utterly different gametype.

smilies-20147.png
 

stas

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Oct 18, 2005
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Hmm using shock rifle is an art :) and it is the best weapon of ut series brand from epic they should keep it powerfull as it is.

For sniper they should to it more heavy(equivalent of an awp) like 120 dmg BUT if u move it misses like in cs.And keep lighting as it is for moving and shooting maybe it would be fun that with new engine capacity if u shoot something conductive it could hit sumone whos near it.

No grenades in rocket launcher lol that the weirdest one i heard and as u saw in ut2007 vids there is no nades...
 
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T2A`

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Jan 10, 2004
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^ Keep anything CS-like the f**k out of UT. Period. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Selerox said:
Keep vehicles the **** out of stock CTF. Make extra maps for vCTF, but if >10% of the overall CTF maps have vehicles in, I'll be seriously, seriously ****ed off. Ideally vCTF should be a seperate gametype completely and not even touch on traditional CTF. It may have flags, but it's an utterly different gametype.

Also, wtf are you on about for the Link primary? It's an utterly useless weapon mode right now, surely it should be made more useful (note that I don't nessesarily mean more powerful). If you drop the power, it'll be a non-weapon for anything other than ONS. You may as well remove it from the game completely and just make it ONS-only :tdown:

As for the sniper rifle? Dump it. Replace with the Lightning Gun, just like virtually everyone wants.
:stupid:

DP is actually the stupid one here, but Sel is 503984938948% right. VCTF is f**king horrible and it needs to die. Lightning owns sniper. Sniper is dull and cliche.

I suspect the only reason DP suggested making the link primary weaker is because I killed him with it 25 times on AS-Convoy yesterday. :p The stupid primary (moved it to secondary on my setup) is so f**king useless except on stationary targets or overcrowed maps. It needs to either shoot faster with less damage per shot, or shoot the same speed with more damage per shot or perhaps have splash damage. The secondary needs to lose the lockdown and needs a higher RoF. It needs to be more like Q3's lightning gun and less like the "only truly useful on someone with less than 30 health" gun it is now.

Flak doesn't really need to be any more powerful than it is right now. Next to shock and lightning it's your best choice. Rockets, on the other hand, are poo compared to the current flak, because it's so easy to kill yourself and they never do more than 90 damage (in theory; I've never done more than 88).

Basically, all the weapons need to be powerful. Rather than being forced to constantly switch weapons and run away from fights if you've only got a certain one, each weapon needs to be very lethal. The only weapons I would truly consider lethal in UT2004 are shock, lightning, and flak. The rest are pretty sad, though rockets are good for clearing a hallway if people don't have tons of health.
 

Random Elite

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Dark Pulse said:
That's not what the scope of this topic is about, Random Elite. It's about gametypes and weapon balances.

That and Face has sucked ever since Face II. But it's still a UT "signature" map, and one I'd play if it were done right.


My bad.


So long as the Flak isn't like UC2, me is happy, and the Shock needs more oomph behind it's beam, like UT'99. It felt more like a punch to the face, rather than a needle jab like in 2kx.
 

Selerox

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Wider spread, better power.

Random Elite said:
So long as the Flak isn't like UC2, me is happy, and the Shock needs more oomph behind it's beam, like UT'99. It felt more like a punch to the face, rather than a needle jab like in 2kx.

Agreed on both counts. I'd prefer for the flak primary to be like UT99's, but with UT2004's richochet.

It'd help to prevent the long-range spam that you freuently get with primary fire. The Flak is a short range weapon, it shouldn't be able to nail you from halfway across the map.
 

Nosnos

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I would like the flak to have a set spread on the primary fire and a limitation to the distance the shards can travel... and the flak secondary should be slightly more powerful but without the incredibly random shards...
 

Mr. UglyPants

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Dark Pulse said:
I
Enforcers[/B][/I]: Well, these are already Dual Enforcers, which is too bad really, because being able to pick up a second enforcer and go John Woo on everybody was VERY cool. I'd say limit the dual enforcers to 13 damage per gun - making it a effective damage of 26 if both bullets hit. Unless both guns fire at once, like the Ass rifles (Which sucks, by the way) in which case, make it about 20 per hit. Secondary fire, just like UT's. I've won a fair amount of fights against superior-armed opponents by going Gangsta on them, and it also gives you a sidearm that's useful and doesn't suck, though the Ass Rifle is good if you can hit people with Grenades. But that's not most people, now is it?

If they do add grenades to it they better explode on contact, really stupid how the nades for the assault rifle for ut2k4 just bouce around than explode!
 

HarrySpanner

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Turns2Ashes said:
Lightning owns sniper. Sniper is dull and cliche.
:tup: :D
Turns2Ashes said:
The secondary needs to lose the lockdown and needs a higher RoF. It needs to be more like Q3's lightning gun and less like the "only truly useful on someone with less than 30 health" gun it is now.
Hmmm. Think about players like GitzZz... they can already own other pros in about 1 second with link primary, so imagine what it would be like if the RoF was increased! :eek:
Turns2Ashes said:
The only weapons I would truly consider lethal in UT2004 are shock, lightning, and flak. The rest are pretty sad, though rockets are good for clearing a hallway if people don't have tons of health.
I agree with that, although some players can make mincemeat out of you with link primary and minigun primary.
 

Neophoenix

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I like the ideas for the SR, except, they should choose between it either being loud or visible, not both.

I also agree with the Ion Painter. However if they do make you stand there forever, you should only be able to see the glisten from the source of the beam, or the area that the beam is painting, not the entire length of the beam. This would not only make it more realistic, but also more balanced.

Other than that, I don't really disagree, or have anything to add to what you said. :)
 

->Sachiel<-

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Jul 24, 2005
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Originally Posted by Turns2AshesThe only weapons I would truly consider lethal in UT2004 are shock, lightning, and flak. The rest are pretty sad, though rockets are good for clearing a hallway if people don't have tons of health.
The bio rifle secondary turns players to puddles of blood. With the in your face fighting that Epic claims UT2007 will have, the bio rifle's (er..canister gun's) range problem shouldn't be much of a problem any more.

AS FOR LINK

The actual thread