Mass Effect 3: "Lets milk this for every penny" Edition

I hope I'm wrong.

Why do I get the horrible feeling that Bioware has concentrated so hard on the big stuff that they're ignored the fundamentals...

Mass Effect had the best plot, best skills system and IMO the best gameplay (for the simple reason that it didn't resort to "forcing" techniques to push the player towards certain playing styles). Mass Effect 2 had the best graphics, best character development, and the best AI (no more "shoot the ceiling and fall back to pick them off" tactics here). Combine the two, you have the best game ever (or close to it).

I worry that ME3 is going to miss the mark in a lot of areas because of of the obsession with building the world. I'd rather they took longer to build the game first, then build the world around that. If you add in the potential DLCs, tie-ins and Origin, there could be problems.

To be honest, it's a similar worry that was aimed at Epic with UT3. We all know how that went...

Mass Effect sucked. ME2 was decent.

Now that's entertainment! Muhaha!

dragonfliet said:

Eh, it makes sense to me. Some people REALLY don't want to do all of the side missions in their games

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It was called cheat codes. You put in codes and get past the shit you hated in a game. It was free and easy. Now you're forced to buy more shit just to skip the shit you don't like. This is why I stopped playing single player games.

Rambowjo said:

Mass Effect sucked. ME2 was decent.

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to be perfectly honest, ME1 is still better than ME2.

DarkED said:

Wow. Mass Effect really has jumped the shark

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As in, what this actually means, or as in "the new one isn't as good as the old one(s)"?

Jacks:SmirkingRevenge said:

to be perfectly honest, ME1 is still better than ME2.

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Go back and play ME1, then go and play ME2. ME1's gameplay was awful in comparison to ME2. Do a COMPLETE playthrough, one that mandates you go through every quest in the game. ME2 was a much more enjoyable experience overall. Side quests weren't generic. There wasn't a single mission that had the same combat layout as the prior one. The annoying Mako missions were removed. The stupid surveying minigame was removed. Combat, side quests, and dialogue was all much less of a chore in ME2 as well.

You seem to have forgotten how awful ME1 was in comparison and are just looking with your nostalgia-goggles at the game. Everything looks better with nostalgia-goggles until you actually go back and play the game.

you seem to have forgotten how it's just one man's opinion

I've done a "COMPLETE" playthrough of both games more than once. every side and companion quest, etc. I enjoyed each of these playthroughs immensely but for different reasons. the first and second games were certainly distinct from one another in both design and gameplay.

I didn't mind the Mako missions. I enjoyed landing on a barren moon-planet with my favorite team and busting out the sniper rifle to pop alien heads as I explored a ruin or crash site. also, the Mako was not hard to control. if you thought it was, you just sucked at it.
yes, some side missions might have had the same interior layouts with different barriers and new decor. but like the sequel, each story mission was still it's own unique setting. the time you spent in side missions compared to a story mission was miniscule so it really didn't bother me.

and are you kidding me about the surveying missions??
ME2 surveying was horrific. you're saying you'd rather sit there in the middle of your game doing this:



than jumping out into a space vehicle and bouncing across the land smashing alien lifeforms?
it was abysmal having to stop the game and the action to sit there and stare at those colors and lines and shit clicking away until I found enough of whatever I needed to upgrade or refill whatever it was that oh my god so boring shoot me.......

otherwise, I loved both games.
but for different reasons. and it's my opinion which, without some kind of data, is as good as yours. just because we slightly disagree and one game is older than the other doesn't mean there are "nostalgia-goggles" involved.

get over yourself.

also relevant is this article: http://www.gameinformer.com/blogs/e...ss-effect-2-mineral-scanning-is-terrible.aspx

Darkdrium said:

Forgive me if I sound silly, but if the PC can do things you want to do, why not do them for the PC and then scale back down for the consoles?
Doing it the other way around obviously hurts the end product whatever it may be. I mean, those animations really are goofy looking.

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The thing is, any project as big as a Mass Effect is already a hulking beast of a thing to plan. Taking the platforms you develop for and then choosing the biggest bottleneck instead of what lets you get away with the most things is a far more efficient way of building a game. First building everything to fit the profile of the average PC (which, I might add, is not easy considering people have anywhere from 256 MB VRAM to 1GB+, and 1 GB to 16GB RAM, not to mention CPUs) to then try and downsize to be able to work properly on consoles would be a lot more resource and time intensive than the other way around.
So yeah, even though the process you describe would likely yield the better results for the PC platform, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a game project like this.

PS: You don't sound silly thinking about this. It's something that allows a bit of rational discussion. I have far more fun and motivation to discuss stuff like that than trying to converse with people that use expletives in every sentence to really hit home that they disagree with something.

Selerox said:

Why do I get the horrible feeling that Bioware has concentrated so hard on the big stuff that they're ignored the fundamentals...

Mass Effect had the best plot, best skills system and IMO the best gameplay (for the simple reason that it didn't resort to "forcing" techniques to push the player towards certain playing styles). Mass Effect 2 had the best graphics, best character development, and the best AI (no more "shoot the ceiling and fall back to pick them off" tactics here). Combine the two, you have the best game ever (or close to it).

I worry that ME3 is going to miss the mark in a lot of areas because of of the obsession with building the world. I'd rather they took longer to build the game first, then build the world around that. If you add in the potential DLCs, tie-ins and Origin, there could be problems.

To be honest, it's a similar worry that was aimed at Epic with UT3. We all know how that went...

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I'm not 100% sure on what you mean with "building the world" but I can tell you with absolute certainty that the writers, gameplay and level designers have all been working ridiculously hard to find that middle ground between ME1 and ME2 as far as gameplay, mechanics, characters and storytelling is concerned.
I believe that we've got a far superior looking and playing game than the games before it, and I say that despite hating every single thing I've worked on because I see nothing but flaws. Of course I'm biased, but it's by and large the same team that worked on ME2, and to a lesser extent the same team that worked on ME1. Have a little faith.

I haven't played ME1 in a long time but I remember there being lots of dialog options. In ME2 it seemed a little reduced but it was okay because there was still lots of options and tangents you can do with very important conversations. In the ME3 demo, I don't think there was ever more than two options and they didn't even seem like it made much of a difference. To give them the benefit of the doubt, it is just a tiny glimpse of the game. Hopefully they're not just saying to themselves, "well, most people probably just picked the the paragon or renegade options when they were given so we're just going to skip all the in between crap to save some development time."

Depth > Speed

Sir_Brizz said:

I think you've forgotten how good ME1 was because you like ME2 more. Fine, but let's look at reality here:

Side quests weren't generic. The side quests in ME2 are pretty generic. The levels are more interesting sure, but they are also a lot smaller and much more linear.

There wasn't a single mission that had the same combat layout as the prior one. There are almost none of those in ME or ME2. ME may have had more side missions that took place in similar looking bases but they at least made sense in context.

The annoying Mako missions were removed. Except the Mako wasn't boring at all and made the planets seem a lot larger than anything in ME2. The complete removal of the Mako was possibly one of the worst decisions made about ME2.

The stupid surveying minigame was removed. The surveying missions in ME weren't required at all. In ME2, if you wanted a good outcome, planet scanning WAS required and that was just terrible as Jacks points out.

Combat, side quests, and dialogue was all much less of a chore in ME2 as well. And, in my opinion, they went WAY overboard in "streamlining" most of those things. Combat in ME2 is superb. But most side quests were linear "run down this path and shoot stuff for 15 minutes and leave" jobs. Also the dialogue was pretty much the same other than the fact that there wasn't always a clear "paragon/renegade" option which made some situations actually better.

There are lots of other things I could probably complain about in ME2 despite it being one of my favorite games overall in my collection. As dragonfliet pointed out a bit earlier, Bioware is really great and nailing the atmosphere and gameplay but, at least lately, they seem to have a hard time executing overall. I'm hoping that ME3 proves me wrong.

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This pretty much sums up my feelings about ME/ME2 :tup:

The words "probe launched" make me not want to play ME2. There's nothing, not even the dodgy inventory system (that they fixed in the PC version) that makes me not want to play ME. They basically made all the levels in ME2 shinier but much, much smaller. In ME I could play most levels the way I wanted to do them. In the external levels, you could use the Mako to make any number of variations to take on enemies, or you could simply get out and do it on foot. You can't in ME2.

Everything you do in ME2 is so much more restricted. The inclusion of ammo is another restriction. It forces you to play more aggressively and to keep pushing forward. It's also a very weak tool for trying to artificially increase the tension by simply reducing the amount available to the player (Collector Ship anyone?). ME2 is a good game, but given the choice, I'd rather play ME instead.

What game were you people playing? The mako missions were just dumb. You either sat in one place alternating between cannon and machine gun, or, if there was a giant geth thingajig, you drove back and forth avoiding the inexplicably slow ball of electricity thing. Whee. I'm not saying that the probe was awesome (it was a mistake), but that doesn't make driving around an empty planet, occasionally engaging in worthless, not fun combat fun. You don't need to wander around in empty space to see that a planet is big: it's called a vista--look around, see the scope and then move. on.

And no, there was no real context for nearly every single side mission in ME1 taking place in the same goddamned layout with some doors closed, some opened. You don't get to bitch about DA2 having frustrating repetitions and then forgive the exact freaking thing in ME1. It was awful in both games, and frustrating.

And I'm sick to death of the claim that side missions were somehow more interesting in ME1. They weren't. Instead of going down an interestingly designed corridor, you would drive around an empty planet and then clear out a box (that was the exact same layout as every other side mission). I mean, sure, it wasn't a corridor shooter, but it was less interesting and you did the exact same thing: go to x location, kill everything, mission complete. I for one will take the better design and straight to the action approach rather than a long, boring trip to a box one.

One thing I would like to say about Bioware, though: I don't feel like they are screwing up lately. Sure, DA2 was rushed, which was a huge problem, but it was still a largely awesome game. SW:TOR, despite being an MMO (which pisses people off to an amusing degree), is excellent and quite a lot of fun (this is coming from me, a person who prefers SP to MP and doesn't really care for MMOs as a general rule), etc. They have ALWAYS fucked these things up. Some of their ideas are better, some worse, but always, their execution is hampered. Their writing is garbage, as a general rule, their understanding of metaphor is laughable at best and their sense of plotting is out of this world crazy. They make up for it by telling interesting stories that they populate with interesting characters that (as a general rule) are genuine and interesting. I honestly have no doubts that ME3, for instance, will be a great game (they always make high quality games) and that all of the decisions will have been made for good, well-thought out reasons. Then again, I also know that those decisions, based on previous games, will be missing large gaps of logic and/or execution and will seem stranded and awkward. Oh well.

dragonfliet said:

One thing I would like to say about Bioware, though: I don't feel like they are screwing up lately. Sure, DA2 was rushed, which was a huge problem, but it was still a largely awesome game. SW:TOR, despite being an MMO (which pisses people off to an amusing degree), is excellent and quite a lot of fun (this is coming from me, a person who prefers SP to MP and doesn't really care for MMOs as a general rule), etc. They have ALWAYS fucked these things up. Some of their ideas are better, some worse, but always, their execution is hampered. Their writing is garbage, as a general rule, their understanding of metaphor is laughable at best and their sense of plotting is out of this world crazy. They make up for it by telling interesting stories that they populate with interesting characters that (as a general rule) are genuine and interesting. I honestly have no doubts that ME3, for instance, will be a great game (they always make high quality games) and that all of the decisions will have been made for good, well-thought out reasons. Then again, I also know that those decisions, based on previous games, will be missing large gaps of logic and/or execution and will seem stranded and awkward. Oh well.

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I love you too, ~Jason.

Sjosz said:

I love you too, ~Jason.

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I don't know if this is a snarky reply. Then again, I'm not sure if I am praising Bioware or insulting them. Praising, I think, but their story department needs a kick in the ass.

P.S. If I ever abandon this whole academia thingymabob and try to get a job there, I should DEFINITELY not let you tell them the things I've said about the quality of their writing...

What games had writing that you liked?

yay! time to multiquote argue with each other.

dragonfliet said:

What game were you people playing? The mako missions were just dumb.

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yeah we were playing the same game.
your thinking it's dumb doesn't mean everyone thought it was dumb.

You either sat in one place alternating between cannon and machine gun, or, if there was a giant geth thingajig, you drove back and forth avoiding the inexplicably slow ball of electricity thing.

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no no no.
maybe that's what you did.
that's not how I played the terrestrial missions.

I could tell immediately that the Mako's weapons were totally OP so I insisted on not using them. except for taking out some of those giant worms that burrow underground and then pop up to spray acid at you, I only used the Mako for transport. when I came across enemies I got out to engage them. sometimes I'd find a nice, high hill that was far away and use the sniper rifle. sometimes I'd drive into the middle of the pack and jump out assault rifles blazing and force pushing guys off of cliffs.

it sounds like you just exploited the Mako's firepower, in spite of not enjoying it, and are now trying to hold that against the game. I mean, I dunno. I play games the way I want to enjoy them. when I come across something like that, I don't just do it because it's an easy exploit, I avoid it in order to maintain my enjoyment and sense of adventure. you should try it.

it's all about your attitude and approach to the game.

You don't need to wander around in empty space to see that a planet is big: it's called a vista--look around, see the scope and then move. on.

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see there again, this is just your opinion and personal attitude regarding how you approach the the game.
some people enjoy the atmosphere and/or mood and/or effect that was created by having these various open planets. whether barren or sprouting vegetation, the fact that it was a large expanse that could actually be traversed (if you wanted) in order to discover things was cool; knowing it was there was cool. some were empty, some had enemies, some had wildlife, but they were there. you could go there and explore it however you wanted. or not. but it's there.

in ME2 those vistas were a facade.
sure they were nice and sparkly but they were fake as a Hollywood backlot. you can always tell where the skybox is and you know there's no way to go out there and explore. you're forced back down the path.

ME2 had lush settings that were beautiful and enjoyable in their own way.
but they were all much more linear and felt like instances that I had simply been transported to, rather than flown across the galaxy to embark on. if that makes sense.

ME2 really felt confining by comparison.
in ME1 I really had a sense of being a Han Solo-type renegade doing his thing, going around and playing space ranger in my own epic space drama.
in ME2 I feel more like a private security contractor who just gets taxi'd around and I'm supposed to enjoy it more because I've got this nice little cabin with some goddamn fish, model ships I can't even play with, and a skylight over my bed? oh goody, lemme check my email.

what is this, The Sims?

It was awful in both games, and frustrating.

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seriously?
I mean, I noticed it and all. but it was pretty moot compared to everything else that is going on. I think he "context" Brizz was referring to is this: most of the side missions that contained cookie-cutter interiors were things like small temp housing found on certain planets and derelict freighters floating in space.

doesn't it kind of make sense to a degree?
why wouldn't there be some standard design to some of the industrial ships and small planetary housing?

was noticing the same interior really "awful" and "frustrating?"
why would it bother you so much?

I dunno.
again the real question should be; why is this even an issue? it really wasn't a big deal to me amongst everything else the game had to offer.

And I'm sick to death of the claim that side missions were somehow more interesting in ME1. They weren't.

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yeah... says you.

I'm glad you enjoy being dropped right into a shooting gallery from some magical teleporter. I believe Duck Hunter made use of this same concept with great success. there was even a shiny orange gun you could hold.
ok but seriously, I just really enjoyed walking there.
I liked having to travel. that was my approach and attitude.

at the end of the day ME1 felt like a much more grand and rewarding experience because I had my boots on the ground all over the galaxy. I went there, I did that. my footprints will be in the dirt if I were to go back, my shell casings on the ground.

I dunno, ME2 just felt smaller and rushed and when it was over it seemed like I hadn't gone very far.
this pretty much is exactly how I feel about DA2 compared to DA1. Origins felt epic, like playing Lord of the Rings. the sequel just felt like a half-baked spin off.

yeah.
something about different strokes and different folks...

dragonfliet said:

I don't know if this is a snarky reply. Then again, I'm not sure if I am praising Bioware or insulting them. Praising, I think, but their story department needs a kick in the ass.

P.S. If I ever abandon this whole academia thingymabob and try to get a job there, I should DEFINITELY not let you tell them the things I've said about the quality of their writing...

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Not snarky. Honestly, I think we'd be pretty crazy to think our execution on things was perfect. I think out of anyone in the world we're the first to criticize what we do and how we do it. There is so much room for improvement in a lot of what we do. That's what keeps things interesting on the development side of things for me. (and I know that to be true for a lot of developers out there) We do strive for perfection though.

Then again, a little bit snarky maybe, because armchair story/dialog critique is so easy to come up with, especially when you have little context to how these things come about. But you know that. You should honestly try the whole writing a videogame thing. I think you'll find it needs a vastly different approach from novels or other more conventional means of literature which I'm sure you're very knowledgeable in.

Also, this post is not so much a rebuttal or defense, or a knock against you, it just warranted interaction.

And I wouldn't worry about being critical of the work we put out, story or otherwise. If it gets to you interviewing here, you need only worry if you cannot properly defend your reasoning. (in fact, when I interviewed here I burned the ME1 citadel to the ground level design wise, not realizing the guy interviewing me (who was also my would-be boss) made it. But he accepted it because I could defend the reasoning)

Sjosz said:

Also, this post is not so much a rebuttal or defense, or a knock against you, it just warranted interaction.

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damnit Sjosz you're too nice.

stand up and tell Jason he's being a whiney bitch whose complaints are overblown. just like I did. in so many words.

Jacks:SmirkingRevenge said:

damnit Sjosz you're too nice.

stand up and tell Jason he's being a whiney bitch whose complaints are overblown. just like I did. in so many words.

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Stop being a whiny bitch about how nice I am. (love you Jacks!)