Recoil - let the experiments begin.
- Thread starter gal-z
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As I have said before, recoil IRL is subjective. It depends on the shooter's experience, control, stance, and practice practice practice. If a shooter knows how to control recoil, they can compensate appropriately.
Sort of like Infiltration.
Sort of like Infiltration.
I only meant it as an example of the displacement method's effects.gal-z said:Firing 75 rounds without letting go of the trigger while running is reall hard IRL anyway
Subjective or not, recoil should be a velocity or accelerational motion rather than an impossible instant relocation. It does spell a length of time where a single recoil action may disrupt aim, so it is an idea to consider for those who want to make things harder.
I understand that. But how does the learning curve fit in, ingame? You still learn to control recoil. As time is logged playing, you learn how to manipulate the environment, or the weapon, in order to put the rounds where you want, and to win.
I would doubt that implementation of "jumping" ingame immediately spurned forethought of "bunnyhopping".
You understand what I mean?
I would doubt that implementation of "jumping" ingame immediately spurned forethought of "bunnyhopping".
You understand what I mean?
What? I think we're talking about different things here. It's easier to 'learn' (and, master to a greater precision) the very set angluar distance infiltration uses than a sort of angular velocity representation that can be found in other games.
Recoil representations are used in games to specifically disrupt the player, generally abuses such as bunnyhopping don't arise from such additions.
Recoil representations are used in games to specifically disrupt the player, generally abuses such as bunnyhopping don't arise from such additions.
Yes, we are. I re-read your post before mine, and I think I understand now what you meant. There should be a uniform formula, so to speak, and not randomness assigned to recoil. I was under the impression that the thread was addressing inaccuracy of recoil by stating that there was a specific, RL implementation dependent upon fire mode selection and some "control equality".
Jesus, I just confused myself.
Jesus, I just confused myself.
Yeah yurch I like the idea of having recoil as a thrust towards a direction, rather than a movement to a new position. Recoil is a pushing force, not a teleporter
An accelerated motion in a very short timespan is almost the same as an "instant relocation", though I don't have any specific objection for making it that way. I'd just rather have an instant relocation representing recoil than not having realistic recoil at all, and I don't think it'll be bad at all. After all, right now the problem with recoil is not the way it's implemented, it's the amount and direction in which the weapon "jumps".
Here's an idea. The recoil thrust direction is always directly away from the center of your freeaim. The closer you can keep the sight to the "sweet spot" in the center, the easier it will be to achieve tight groupings. This would simulate squaring up properly for the shot, also managing recoil would be in 2d (up,down,left,right) rather than 1 direction.
The best anaylogy I can think of to this method is like balancing a yardstick on your nose. If you can keep it right in the center, it is fairly controllable, but once it starts to move a certain direction it will accelerate rapidly unless corrected.
The best anaylogy I can think of to this method is like balancing a yardstick on your nose. If you can keep it right in the center, it is fairly controllable, but once it starts to move a certain direction it will accelerate rapidly unless corrected.
Ah, ok. Can you please elaborate? You've got more experience shooting than I do.gal-z said:The problem is that kind of analogy is simply incorrect when it comes to shooting.
But there aren't alot of peripherals on a computer to simulate the balancing act of shooting, keihas has a good idea.
I'm telling you the next INF will need a joystick or a steering wheel at least. I mean really have you ever tried to pilot anything with just a mouse and keyboard, it's horrible. A clear compromise would be to use a gamepad but who would want to do that? Maybe an idea would be to move away from this whole keyboard/mouse thing and get into some freaky dual controller thing... you know mouse on one side freaky joystick with 27 buttons on the other.
I'm pretty nasty in a plane/helicopter/tank in BF42, and I use my mouse. Also, I control all of the vehicles in GTA:SA with nothing but my keyboard. As long as the force for each button push is reasonable, I'll never feel obligated to dust off my joystick for anything other than Freespace and Microsoft Combat Flight Simulator.
--Harrm
--Harrm
It's not that if you hold the rifle right your shots will group well. When you shoot, the rifle WILL get an offset, which is relatively fixed if you're not holding it in some wierd way (as in, if you're nolding it right in the shoulder in a resaonable shooting position). There may be a small difference between different people, but the INF soldier is the "average soldier +", isn't he? So it's not that if you're holding it right you get hardly any recoil and once you get some offset to one side you'll keep offsetting more and more in that direction. It's that whenever you shoot you get an offset in a direction depending on your posture (standing/crouch/prone) and if you don't bring the sights back to the target after the shot (before shooting a second shot), the rifle will keep offsetting more and more to that same direction.
Basically IMO the way it's done in INF right now IS good, it just needs a change of how much it recoils and to which direction.
Basically IMO the way it's done in INF right now IS good, it just needs a change of how much it recoils and to which direction.
Well so Keihas idea does make sense, doesn't it? (as far as I understood it)
When you do it like that:
I) The ironsight of the gun are perfectly alligned in the center of the screen (aka center of the freeaim box). Recoil is at a minimum at this center.
II) Aiming off center would result in a minor missalignment and result in increased, recoil depending on the direction of the aiming offset
The slight misssalingment of the gun would need to be visible on the screen (gun sligthly tilted sideways), so players intuitively have a clue what to do. The whole procedure (aiming at freeaim center) would be INF's interpretation of alligning ironsights and holding the gun propperly.
This way players in a guarding position would finally have a decent advantage over those walking, running or strafing around.
JFYI I've never shot a real gun, so I have no clue on realism but gameplaywise this sound very good to me.
When you do it like that:
I) The ironsight of the gun are perfectly alligned in the center of the screen (aka center of the freeaim box). Recoil is at a minimum at this center.
II) Aiming off center would result in a minor missalignment and result in increased, recoil depending on the direction of the aiming offset
The slight misssalingment of the gun would need to be visible on the screen (gun sligthly tilted sideways), so players intuitively have a clue what to do. The whole procedure (aiming at freeaim center) would be INF's interpretation of alligning ironsights and holding the gun propperly.
This way players in a guarding position would finally have a decent advantage over those walking, running or strafing around.
JFYI I've never shot a real gun, so I have no clue on realism but gameplaywise this sound very good to me.
That's not really accurate, is it? I mean, when you aim around your peripheral view with a gun in real life, it's not like your entire body stays stationary. You tilt your head instinctively and shift your weight. There would be an offset if you didn't tilt your head, but in real life view, you wouldn't even be able to see the irons anymore (since your eye is much closer to the irons than in INF).
And recoil isn't that hard to manage if you have the gun turned (as opposed to tilted, something I have never done or reccomend doing) to the side. As long as you've got the butt of the rifle propped up against your arm and your hand on the trigger, the recoil is the same pretty much no matter how you shoot it. I've seen guys firing weapons like they where paintball guns and nailing targets with relative ease.
Basically, what's wrong with the system we have now (besides all that "kick up and to the side" junk)? Yeah, some people get really good at it, but that's what happens when people play a game for extended periods of time. If you really want to balance it, just have the gun kick a small amount in a random direction. It's not realistic, but if you want a quick fix...
--Harrm
EDIT:
That's what I just tried to explain. In short: how you shoot on a screen is different than how you shoot in real life.
And recoil isn't that hard to manage if you have the gun turned (as opposed to tilted, something I have never done or reccomend doing) to the side. As long as you've got the butt of the rifle propped up against your arm and your hand on the trigger, the recoil is the same pretty much no matter how you shoot it. I've seen guys firing weapons like they where paintball guns and nailing targets with relative ease.
Basically, what's wrong with the system we have now (besides all that "kick up and to the side" junk)? Yeah, some people get really good at it, but that's what happens when people play a game for extended periods of time. If you really want to balance it, just have the gun kick a small amount in a random direction. It's not realistic, but if you want a quick fix...
--Harrm
EDIT:
That's what I just tried to explain. In short: how you shoot on a screen is different than how you shoot in real life.
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Look at it this way, your rifle is always going to start offset, as it is crooked int the meat of one of your shoulders. The only way to get it on center is to place the stock in the center of your chest, and that just won't work. Thus, the force is always to push back on the side it is held, causing the riffle to turn you in that direction. Holding it "off center" to the left while shooting right handed will still result in an impulse to the right side of your torso, causing you to rotate to the right.
Haarm, recoil in a random direction is almost as bad as conefire. I'd say set the recoil to what one would experience when not trying to control the effect. Thus, the player moving the mouse would be the equivilant of the soldier tensing and flexing his muscles. It will become a natural response for the player, as it does for the soldier, and just as a soldier's muscles would tire, a players mouse would run out of desk space, and both would have to quit firing to get back on target.
Haarm, recoil in a random direction is almost as bad as conefire. I'd say set the recoil to what one would experience when not trying to control the effect. Thus, the player moving the mouse would be the equivilant of the soldier tensing and flexing his muscles. It will become a natural response for the player, as it does for the soldier, and just as a soldier's muscles would tire, a players mouse would run out of desk space, and both would have to quit firing to get back on target.
No, he's using freeaim instead of misalignment. In the past I've implemented misalignment-directional recoil like yours (probably in some HL2 experiment) and I don't remember liking it too much. The recoil tends to 'pick up speed' (if, the recoil effects misalignment) at an alarming rate.Nukeproof said:
The way you put it here, it seems to agree with my idea.gal-z said:
The recoil based offset would occur in a direction away from the center of the freeaim. Then, you would have to correct (or the rifle will keep offsetting more and more in that direction), pulling your mouse towards the center of the freeaim. If you over correct, then the rifle will start recoiling in a different direction resulting in the balancing act I was referring to in the analogy of the yardstick on the nose.
Misalignment would be another thing to add that I wasn't really talking about specifically. As yurch said, if the rifle is offset AND misaligned it would really throw you off, so a little probably goes a long way.