Movement

Vaskadar · May 13, 2014

I feel that the movement speed should never exceed half the speed of projectiles. That's a major issue I had with UT2k4 and UT3, some of the weapons were far too slow (velocity-wise (looking at you, link gun primary)) to be worth anything.

I'm pretty much in agreement that the game shouldn't be floaty at all, but it should also have some incredibly high-speed combat.

Al · May 13, 2014

Am I the only one in favor of "floaty"? The 2k4 movement (dodge jumping) was perfect, IMO.

evilmrfrank · May 13, 2014

I also loved the UT2k4 movement XD It may have been slightly too floaty which I think often led to it being too easy to escape combats in many instances

Sir_Brizz · May 13, 2014

evilmrfrank said:
I also loved the UT2k4 movement XD It may have been slightly too floaty which I think often led to it being too easy to escape combats in many instances

The problem is that it had severe consequences on map design and weapon balance. Projectile/splash damage weapons were pretty much useless in 2k4.

TWD · May 13, 2014

There was always this feeling amongst 2kx players (at least here at BU) that even though we enjoyed the movement that it was toxic to the community. Very few of us would say "well i just won't play this failure of a game without 2004 style movement". We understood that the middle ground was not under us. Hence why few of us put up a fight when they changed things for UT3. It was supposed to be more like the original so everyone should be happy. I was a little shocked when the game came out so slow and was quickly rejected.

But to 2004's credit they fixed a lot of problems and gimmicks from UT99 as well. That's ultimately the dichotomy. The UT99 players don't want to fix its problems.

Arnox · May 13, 2014

Sir_Brizz said:
Projectile/splash damage weapons were pretty much useless in 2k4.

Not entirely true. I remember getting quite few kills on a TAM server and on a base DM-Rankin erry day server using my age old combination of the RL, Flak, and Minigun. As long as you're good at prediction and quick on the mouse, you can get some nice kills.

But I'm also not a pro at all.

Sir_Brizz · May 13, 2014

Arnox said:
Not entirely true. I remember getting quite few kills on a TAM server and on a base DM-Rankin erry day server using my age old combination of the RL, Flak, and Minigun. As long as you're good at prediction and quick on the mouse, you can get some nice kills.

But I'm also not a pro at all.

... with a bunch of noobs

Same reason I played on ReconGamer all the time, you could get kills with the weapons you normally wouldn't.

Arnox · May 13, 2014

Sir_Brizz said:
... with a bunch of noobs Same reason I played on ReconGamer all the time, you could get kills with the weapons you normally wouldn't.

Well, I'll tell you what WAS pretty miserable. The Link Gun, AR, Bio-Rifle, and the Translocator. Maybe less so for the Link because of its secondary fire.

The Translocator used to be pretty OP'd in UT99, I agree. But ONLY BECAUSE it could be spammed infinitely. Unfortunately, Epic thought they needed to nerf it more besides limiting its ammo so they also took out how easy it used to be to telefrag someone with it in super close quarters. Boooooooo...

-AEnubis- · May 13, 2014

UT3 would be the best place to look for weapon damages to start. That was one thing they did improve on each iteration. UT weapon damages were designed for dial up net play, and severely outdated.

TWD · May 13, 2014

Sir_Brizz said:
... with a bunch of noobs Same reason I played on ReconGamer all the time, you could get kills with the weapons you normally wouldn't.

I think you might remember a bit too much of the 2k3 parts as well when ReconGamer was truly in its heyday. The weapon balance was a bit different. IIRC the Flak cannon got nerfed to be less spammy. The changes made UT2k4 even more hitscan dominant. It was the weapons that made it this way, not the movement.

-AEnubis- · May 13, 2014

I got enough done with projectiles in 2kx to have a good time of it, but that's all I really do/practice. The problem was even being above average at slinging rox, you'd still get beat by average lighting.

Some of the projetiles could use buffs, but I still would more enjoy bring the hitscan weapons down to the level of the projectiles.

Sir_Brizz · May 13, 2014

TWD said:
I think you might remember a bit too much of the 2k3 parts as well when ReconGamer was truly in its heyday. The weapon balance was a bit different. IIRC the Flak cannon got nerfed to be less spammy. The changes made UT2k4 even more hitscan dominant. It was the weapons that made it this way, not the movement.

It was more the map, but yes. Recon played Citadel 24/7. You could use map knowledge to make up for not using hitscan. Sometimes.

DeathBooger · May 14, 2014

My thoughts I posted over on the UT dev forum:

I just finished playing all three versions of UT for hours tonight. I've never played the original before tonight because I didn't start playing UT until 2004. Honestly, I can easily see why some of you dislike UT2004's mechanics. This is coming from a guy that did nothing but play UT2004 almost every day for a very long time. Here's my take:

I'd like the original UT pace with a slightly higher jump, a wall dodge that has the same momentum as the standard dodge, and an option to jump normally with jump boots equipped. I'd also like to include ramp boosting, lift jumping, and all the other tricks. I'd remove all dodge jumping and double jumping all together. With a higher default jump and a wall dodge that gives you the same angle and momentum of a standard dodge it should be acrobatic enough for most players.

The original UT is the only one that felt natural, while UT2004 felt like I was floating, and UT3 felt like I was 500lbs overweight every time I left the ground. I haven't touched a UT game since 2008 and these were my reactions from playing each over and over again for a side by side comparison on a DM-Deck map for a sense of similarity.

It's freaky. I kinda feel like a traitor.

-AEnubis- · May 14, 2014

Experience is the best teacher.

Hunter · May 14, 2014

I'd say one thing that doesn't need to come back in the knockdown you get in UT3. That thing is annoying as fuck.

TWD · May 14, 2014

DeathBooger said:
My thoughts I posted over on the UT dev forum:

It's freaky. I kinda feel like a traitor.

Go back and try UT99 with the matrix moves mutator. It was a popular mod that included wall walking and double jump, and was a major contributor rewards the inclusion of double jump in 2k4. It's a good baseline for how double jump feels with UT99 speed and gravity.

Shrimp · May 14, 2014

DeathBooger said:
My thoughts I posted over on the UT dev forum:

It's freaky. I kinda feel like a traitor.

Completely agree with this.

I feel this offers a fair compromise between the faster but sharp movement of the original game's movement, while not completely abandoning the idea of some of the more acrobatic antics introduced in the later iterations.

Wormbo · May 14, 2014

I posted the following thoughts over at the Unreal Engine Forums:

me said:
A few ideas around jumping and dodging:

No more double jump. (Wait, wait, it's not as bad as it sounds if you read on.)

Jump height should depend on whether you're actively moving in any direction.
Basically you have dodging for quick movement with a low jump, a high standing jump (higher than in previous titles, since there's no double jump anymore) and standard jump height when walking/running in any direction.

No dodging limit. In other words, you can perform a wall-dodge even if you already dodged or wall-dodged before.

Wall-dodge off non-static objects.
I don't see why you shouldn't be able to dodge off a vehicle or even another player. The latter could be less efficient and instead have an effect similar to jumping on someone's head, i.e. do some damage and push away the victim a bit.

Crouched dodging. Essentially you could roll to the left or right. Back or forward rolling wouldn't make much sense, though, as you couldn't keep aiming at the same time.

Sliding similar to BulletStorm, but with limited distance. (IIRC you wouldn't stop sliding in BulletStorm if you somehow managed to avoid obstacles.)
This one should only be possible when already running, jumping or dodging in that direction. Input sequence could be the same as for crouch-dodging, except it might require a more boost-dodge style key press to stay up and not lose speed before starting it. (e.g. side-dodge: ->, ->; right before landing, start entering the slide sequence: ->, v,-> - or something like that)

Align dodging to slopes. Dodging should become useless on slight slopes or bumpy terrain.

Allow dodging sooner after landing. For example, the first part of the dodge double-tap could be entered while still in the air, as long as the second one happens after landing.

Lift jumps (and in fact also jumps off other moving things, e.g. vehicles) should inherit some of the horizontal movement as well. In fact, that should also happen when simply walking off a lift or moving vehicle. (I do realize this may be difficult because these things are usually very fast, and stepping down a lift while it goes down may require special attention, due to the possible falling damage.)

What I didn't post there: Double jump might still be a valid move to activate jump boots, like it is done in UT3.
But apart from that, getting rid of mid-air jumps should remove the floatyness. To keep (or increase) the speed, there are the infinite wall dodge (hard to chain efficiently without double jump) and fast dodge. Sliding probably is a bit gimmicky and may easily get out of control if implemented carelessly.

Sir_Brizz · May 14, 2014

I think I probably agree with all of that. I actually really like the idea of infinite wall dodge. There could be areas of maps specifically designed to exploit that, but it wouldn't really ruin anything unless you could exploit it in a corner or something (that was a problem in UC2).

The sliding and rolling I would have to see in action to see if it actually added anything of value for me. It could cause gameplay headaches, I just don't know.

I love your idea for fast dodging, though.

Sir_Brizz · May 14, 2014

Here is a discussion over on the official forums of the movement that has been committed to the code today.

https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?5990-Movement-mechanics-of-most-current-code

There is a small mantling system that basically lets you "trip" onto ledges. Seems pretty good. Also, wall dodging is in (might even be infinite wall dodging).

Here s a webm video of the multidodge:

[webm]http://ut.raxxy.com/787eee35d0_wall_dodge_mantle.webm[/webm]

Another video of mantling and mantling while dodging:

[webm]http://ut.raxxy.com/787eee35d0_side_dodge_mantle.webm[/webm]

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