Which bullet is more powerful: .357 magnum or .45 ACP?
- Thread starter NTKB
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7,65 and the necked 7,62x25 are different worlds mate, one kills stuff, the other just bounces off stuff.
Do NOT get thouse two rounds confused.
Do NOT get thouse two rounds confused.
Just to translate for those of you who don't know, the 7.65mm that Goatfu<b></b>cker is talking about is basicaly .32acp.
this is a gun that fires a .32acp
Kel-Tec P32
awwww aint it cute
While I don't doubt that there are several instances where a .32 has just "bounced off" of someone I still am not going to volunteer to stand in front of one
this is a gun that fires a .32acp
Kel-Tec P32
awwww aint it cute
While I don't doubt that there are several instances where a .32 has just "bounced off" of someone I still am not going to volunteer to stand in front of one
Right, Goat. First off, you'll pardon me if I doubt the veracity of your claims since it doesn't sound typical of a police force to issue lethal force weapons during a riot. If anything, they go through fairly great pains to make sure that NO ONE is issued live ammunition. See the ruckus caused by what happened earlier this year in Genoa? Rubber and plastic bullets, beanbag rounds, OC and mace, sure. Live ammo? I seriously doubt it. Did you see the bullet removed from this man and confirm it was a full-power FMJ? Second instance, what was the guy wearing when he was shot? How far away was he? What kind of physical condition was he in?
You're basing your opinions on two instances which really you know nothing about. Fact is, a .32 ACP has the same velocity as a .22 LR but weighs twice as much. Is it as effective as a 9mm or .45? Obviously not. Claiming it merely bounces off skulls however is tantamount to saying a Glock is invisible to X-rays. Now, the skull is one of the thickest pieces of bone in the human body. If the angle of entry was extremely shallow, say ten to fifteen degrees, the bullet could enter the skin, deflect off the skull, and bury itself in the flesh as you described. But guess what? That can happen with most any round nose bullet, and it has most notably with .38 Specials and some 9mm.
Here's a photo for you of a .32 ACP Glaser Safety Slug in ballistic gelatin:
That looks like over 6 inches of penetration to me. Here's some pics of other rounds fired into gelatin: http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm Some are poor performers, but to claim they'd bounce off bone is silly (especially since most penetrated up to 14 inches AFTER penetrating two layers of denim). Take a gander at the Hydra Shok, Gold Dot, and Silvertips.
So you ask what I have to back me up? Well in truth, not a lot. Just over a decade of personal firearms experience and verified scientific data from noted authorities in the field. Since you're so confident of the .32's complete lack of power, would you be willing to let me shoot you with my Sauer 38H from 25 yards? According to you it would bounce right off. Nah, tell ya what. Next time I go to the range I'll take my Sauer with me (once I get the broken trigger spring replaced) and do some penetration tests against various targets, and film the episode for you. Sound good?
You're basing your opinions on two instances which really you know nothing about. Fact is, a .32 ACP has the same velocity as a .22 LR but weighs twice as much. Is it as effective as a 9mm or .45? Obviously not. Claiming it merely bounces off skulls however is tantamount to saying a Glock is invisible to X-rays. Now, the skull is one of the thickest pieces of bone in the human body. If the angle of entry was extremely shallow, say ten to fifteen degrees, the bullet could enter the skin, deflect off the skull, and bury itself in the flesh as you described. But guess what? That can happen with most any round nose bullet, and it has most notably with .38 Specials and some 9mm.
Here's a photo for you of a .32 ACP Glaser Safety Slug in ballistic gelatin:
That looks like over 6 inches of penetration to me. Here's some pics of other rounds fired into gelatin: http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/32acp/gel32acp.htm Some are poor performers, but to claim they'd bounce off bone is silly (especially since most penetrated up to 14 inches AFTER penetrating two layers of denim). Take a gander at the Hydra Shok, Gold Dot, and Silvertips.
So you ask what I have to back me up? Well in truth, not a lot. Just over a decade of personal firearms experience and verified scientific data from noted authorities in the field. Since you're so confident of the .32's complete lack of power, would you be willing to let me shoot you with my Sauer 38H from 25 yards? According to you it would bounce right off. Nah, tell ya what. Next time I go to the range I'll take my Sauer with me (once I get the broken trigger spring replaced) and do some penetration tests against various targets, and film the episode for you. Sound good?
I wouldent either Zündy, my point is that i wouldent want to trust my life with that little firecracker either.
If youre going to pull a gun, you better be ready to fire it, but you would be wise to choose one that has a just decent chance of stopping youre opposition aswell.
EDIT. Instaposted me there Griffo.
The Danish police does not use any other none lethal means of crowd controll other than teargas, for everything else, theres live ammo, there is no middle ground.
And you want to know the really fun part? the PPK was recently discontinued in favour of the USP, and can you guess what the standard ammo type is? (read as: only ammo type they are issued with), hollowpoints of some descretion (we arent allowed to know precisely what, other than its hollowpoint), up untill then, the PPK was ONLY issued with FMJ's, no odd ammo.
The danish police knows only one thing when it comes to riots, beat what ever is easy to catch, and shoot to kill.
Go have a look around for the 18'th may 93, in Denmark ofcourse, you should be able to find multiple danish news articles, and if youre lucky, and english translation...that would require some hefty luck though, it was the first big shootout between rioteers and the police in modern history, meny where shot, only one of them in the leg, the rest where hit at center mass, no-one was killed (PPK's being the only weapons at the scene...thats a very poor street record right there).
Im not really claiming the 7,65 cant kill, that is an exageration, given, but what i am saying is that i have seen it fail countless times on one night...i would not trust that round to save my life, and i wouldent advice anyone else to do it either.
If youre going to pull a gun, you better be ready to fire it, but you would be wise to choose one that has a just decent chance of stopping youre opposition aswell.
EDIT. Instaposted me there Griffo.
The Danish police does not use any other none lethal means of crowd controll other than teargas, for everything else, theres live ammo, there is no middle ground.
And you want to know the really fun part? the PPK was recently discontinued in favour of the USP, and can you guess what the standard ammo type is? (read as: only ammo type they are issued with), hollowpoints of some descretion (we arent allowed to know precisely what, other than its hollowpoint), up untill then, the PPK was ONLY issued with FMJ's, no odd ammo.
The danish police knows only one thing when it comes to riots, beat what ever is easy to catch, and shoot to kill.
Go have a look around for the 18'th may 93, in Denmark ofcourse, you should be able to find multiple danish news articles, and if youre lucky, and english translation...that would require some hefty luck though, it was the first big shootout between rioteers and the police in modern history, meny where shot, only one of them in the leg, the rest where hit at center mass, no-one was killed (PPK's being the only weapons at the scene...thats a very poor street record right there).
Im not really claiming the 7,65 cant kill, that is an exageration, given, but what i am saying is that i have seen it fail countless times on one night...i would not trust that round to save my life, and i wouldent advice anyone else to do it either.
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I can see your point of wanting to carry more fire power then a .32 (frankly I feel much better carrying my .40 then I would a .32).
However a .32 in the pocket is more powerful then a .357mag at home in the gun safe
Also, if I remember the FBI statistics correctly, the most common handgun cartridge used in homicides in the US is the .22lr (apparently it has been for many years).
There's a lot of rounds I'd rather carry then a .32 (for the size and price I would carry a Makarov in 9x18mm).
However a .32 in the pocket is more powerful then a .357mag at home in the gun safe
Also, if I remember the FBI statistics correctly, the most common handgun cartridge used in homicides in the US is the .22lr (apparently it has been for many years).
There's a lot of rounds I'd rather carry then a .32 (for the size and price I would carry a Makarov in 9x18mm).
Well then I definitely agree with both of you on that point. The .32 ACP would not be my first defense choice either. Unless it was in a Czech Skorpion machine pistol, in which case I'm sure the volley of lead would make up for the lack of stopping power.
phatcat
akward cat
- Dec 29, 2000
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about that Skorpion machine pistol. From the pictures I have seen that thing looks ity-bity. how dose that thing kick? I only have a picture of it in a book, and I was judging from the grip
The barrel of a snub nose .38 police special is probably longer then that thing... no wonder it's accuracy sucks
I still stand by the .357sig as a defence round.
It outperformed the .40S&W in FBI handgun trials in 1996, being beaten in only 1 of 8 tests. (source)
It travels at pretty high velocity, and from what I can tell, the makers are more concerned with penetration than expansion or cavitation. It's sort of like a slower 5.7mm without the AP properties. As most people agree, having a hole either side of the target is more importatnt than having a big hole that only goes 5cm into the flesh. (FBI says so)
Arm yourself with a Glock33 or Sig-Sauer P239 in .357sig, and I assure you, you have every reason to feel safe.
It outperformed the .40S&W in FBI handgun trials in 1996, being beaten in only 1 of 8 tests. (source)
It travels at pretty high velocity, and from what I can tell, the makers are more concerned with penetration than expansion or cavitation. It's sort of like a slower 5.7mm without the AP properties. As most people agree, having a hole either side of the target is more importatnt than having a big hole that only goes 5cm into the flesh. (FBI says so)
Arm yourself with a Glock33 or Sig-Sauer P239 in .357sig, and I assure you, you have every reason to feel safe.
The recoil on the Skorpion is fairly light, due to its remarkably low rate of fire (and mousy cartridge). In fact, the Skorpion is viewed by most as the forerunner to the modern PDW.
And $1400 for a f*cking UPPER? I'm sorry, but that is BS. I can probably buy a 7.5" upper from a bottom-feeder in the States (some lower-quality dealers of AR parts are referred to as "bottom feeders") for $400 WITH a bolt and carrier. Even with the exchange rate and shipping that works out to about $700 Cdn. Half of what those clowns are asking for. I hate gun dealers that gouge the Canadian market.
And $1400 for a f*cking UPPER? I'm sorry, but that is BS. I can probably buy a 7.5" upper from a bottom-feeder in the States (some lower-quality dealers of AR parts are referred to as "bottom feeders") for $400 WITH a bolt and carrier. Even with the exchange rate and shipping that works out to about $700 Cdn. Half of what those clowns are asking for. I hate gun dealers that gouge the Canadian market.