[UT2004] The return of the Sniper Rifle

Scumgrief said:

I am openly full of rage. I played a sniper-only mute the other day, where the UT style sniper rifle was the main choice... I've never seen such godawful spam... I felt bad about the headshots I was making... it took no skill at all to make them.

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Sounds like a Zark sniper server....which isn't much of a sniper weapon. That weapon plays more like a Vulcan assault cannon rather than any Sniper Rifle. RoF is just way too high. In general I found only the crappiest players play using that mute....for any length of time. Heck I went on some killing sprees on a few Zark Servers, while using every weapon EXCEPT the Zark sniper to give you an idea how crappy those players usually are.

And I really don't consider the UT2k3 Lightning Gun a 'sniper' weapon. To me it's just a nerfed Quake Rail Gun. (ie No 1 hit kills at starting health, unless you headshot.)

Sniper weapon or not, the LTG serves it's purpose in the balance. It's good for long ranges, and it's unique damage dealing attributes make it perferct for what it is.

I agree that it is not much of a sniper weapon, but it's not called a sniper rifle anymore is it?

From that read, they prolly slowed the ROF down to reduce the spam, which should happen, you should have to think before you shoot that thing so you worry about not having as many shots at an open target. It should be no crosshair having when not zoomed, so that in conjunction with it's slowed ROF will make it not a close quarters weapon, or all purpose god gun it was in UT... and don't even get me started on the god slaying minigun2...

The larger outdoor team maps would prolly be good to have an actual sniper weapon, and I think it'll fit fine. I'd much rather it be beside and not inplace of the LTG, but we'll see how it goes. I prolly don't need much of a crosshair...

Sir_Brizz said:

so instead of having a decent weapon in the game you would rather have a trash gun...

the only people that want the old Sniper Rifle back in are the ones that want to be able to camp somewhere wide open and headshot people without getting caught, = stupid. Your #2 and #3 prove this. As for #1, well that's a personal preference thing, but you shouldn't have full 100% clear view on ANY sniper rifle's scope.

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This is just wrong Brizz. The old sniper rifle wasn't that bad. In fact I believe it was just perfect for it's role. It was very good at shots which were
1)Hiding the Shooter [C'mon it's NOT a sniper weapon if it gives the shooter away.]
2)Long Ranged
3)Didn't mess with your view in the scope. [Just zooming in restricts your view, no need to pop the magic mushrooms too, like the UT2k3 LtG]
4)Did fair damage when not getting a headshot. [It did about the same damage as a single enforcer. (Slower RoF/More damage and vice versa. roughly)


If you are so pissed with people 'camping' how about:
1) Learning where the camping spots are and flush 'em out.
2) Don't be such a sitting target...move around some more, even if you don't see anyone that doesn't mean they aren't there.
3)Pre-emptively snipe back.
4)You have a translocator, use it.

It fires too fast it's hitscan I can't see the shooter I always die from it Damn low ping weapon, people camp with it they can see me in the scope they won't come in the open and stand still so I can shoot them they don't play just like I do dammit stop sniping me argh! you one hit killed me! Only I can do that!

(Well that's what I tend to get out of these discussions anyway.)

personaly I don't care if the sniperrifle will be in UT2004. If it's spammy, who cares. UT was never a realistic shooter anyway.

The more weapons the more fun IMO...

And on and on

Can't we wait till the demo/game comes out before we start judging (spelling?) the weapon? For one, if SO MANY poeple hated the rate of fire on the sniper rifle, why not take five minutes to make a muator to low it's rate of fire? Why not make a mutator, be done with it and stop complanting (spelling?) about it? If you don't like the Sniper Rifle being in AS and ONS normally, why not bug Epic till they make it a mutator only and put the Lightning Gun in those gamemodes normally? Another thing, everyone is talking about the UT Sniper Rifle, this is the UT2003/2004 fourms, why is everyone bashing a UT weapon here? The new sniper rifle won't be the same, why does everyone think it will be the same? Even for the few people that actually played UT2k4 already, it could change in the final game. Do people complant about sniper rifles in every single other game that has one?

Sir_Brizz said:

None of these excuses is worthwhile and I'll tell you why.

It was MORE than pathetic to jump on any UT server that had more than 500u of space between two walls because people would stand by the other wall and snipe your head off clean. No matter if it was DM, CTF, DOM, whatever. On top of that, alot of the time you didn't even see where it was coming from if they missed one time, resulting in spinning in circles searching for the shooter, especially in DM where people had spawn point prediction written on their eyelids.

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This really sounds like you never bothered to even try learning how to counter snipe. I've played on the heaviest sniping maps, like the 24x7 Facing worlds servers and the Sniper Arena/Open map servers, and it's a skill to learn just like any other in UT. And if your spinning in circles looking for them, you've already failed. Just like leading your shots with the RL, you need to anticipate where your enemy is/will be and eliminate those areas first.

Sir_Brizz said:

On top of that, haveing more than 180ms ping made you an easy target because it would take you a moment longer than your spawn protection to even get moving.

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Hell ANYTHING above 150 ping makes you an easy target and in general is nigh unplayable no matter who or what you are using. (Learned from years of modem playing, the highest range you want to play in is 120-150, above that it's not worth it...and if you find a sub 100 server...WOOT let the carnage begin!)

Sir_Brizz said:

Sniping back never worked because by the time you see where they are you are dead again, and they have moved again (at least the smart ones).

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So, don't snipe back....suppress them. A couple of Rockets/Blades/Shock balls/Pulses and if their stupid enough to sit there, they deserve to die. And if they get up and move, that gives you time to get closer or find cover/get away.

Sir_Brizz said:

And in both UT and UT2k3, translocating away has never really been a viable option, even with the lightning gun. Not only can the disc be broken easily in mid-air, but most of the time you are being shot at from a far enough distance that it's only a miniscule movement for the to correct for the translocation.

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You have got to be kidding me. In UT it was well nigh impossible to shoot a tele-monkey with any weapon. Unless they only moved in a straight line...or you were able to set up a shock combo in time. And even then it was tough. Even in UT2k3 it's almost impossible to hit the beacon in mid-air. Granted it's easier in UT2k3 to hit the teleporter themself, but that's more because they have more 'down time' due to the recharging and the longer distance they need to wait as a result. Of course this means also that they are pretty much gone when they do trans as a reault of those longer distances but that's the trade off.

Sir_Brizz said:

=stupid. IT wasn't fun. I stopped playing UT online after about 6 months becuase I couldn't stand how retarded it was....and yes it was that bad.

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So playing stupid bots was better than learning how to deal with other real players? Honestly, I really fail to see how you could become a UT fan without playing online. Sure the UT bots could give you a work out at higher skill levels...but in the end they were still stupid. Finding a way to deal with lama's who piston camp, portal camp, spawn camp, spam, team kill, tele-monkey, weapon whore, ping rape, map route, piston launch, flag camp, item timing, kamikaze, weapon throw and all around lamers was a part of the game. And in UT, you had the tools to do so. You just had to learn how to use them. To me it sounds like you just gave up before you could figure it out.

Since we're pointlessly disecting every single word each other is saying.....

PainAmplifier said:

Hell ANYTHING above 150 ping makes you an easy target and in general is nigh unplayable no matter who or what you are using. (Learned from years of modem playing, the highest range you want to play in is 120-150, above that it's not worth it...and if you find a sub 100 server...WOOT let the carnage begin!)

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I'll have to disagree. It's definately playable, and definately worth it. Just takes a bit more practice and skill.

PainAmplifier said:

Even in UT2k3 it's almost impossible to hit the beacon in mid-air.

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Disagree again. Spend 5 minutes at FragBU, and you'll see just how possible it is.

wait, are you guys serious about the ping?

I'm on cable and ping close to 200 on FBU everytime I play, I see very little difference except my score is a little lower and there is some slight glitching when compared to a sub 100 ping server.

do you guys really have that much trouble playing above 150?

SugarBear said:

wait, are you guys serious about the ping?

I'm on cable and ping close to 200 on FBU everytime I play, I see very little difference except my score is a little lower and there is some slight glitching when compared to a sub 100 ping server.

do you guys really have that much trouble playing above 150?

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Wel there is some wiggle room in the pings due to spiking and such. But overall every +50 ping made it significantly harder to play.

So 100-150 was pretty decent, 150-200 was rough, and 200-250 you might as well call me rubber-band man if I could stay connected at all. Break points came at the mid-points of those. But basically I was happy with anything from 100 to 150. With 150 being an upper limit. Mainly because if I went any higher I would get packet loss and lag spikes. Often I would get on a server pinging at 120 and checking the connection later might show 170-230 in spots, but the average stayed down in the 130-150 range which made it playable. If I went on a server that started around 170, I would know that if I checked the average ping would end up around 250-350 which made it unplayable.

I have DSL now, so I can always find a good server nearby. And I have to hunt to find a bad pinging server But when I was still modeming, Some nights I would only find 5-10 in the sub 130 range, about 50-100 in the 150-170 range and the rest too high to even try.

Renegade Retard said:

Disagree again. Spend 5 minutes at FragBU, and you'll see just how possible it is.

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Until I get a chance to see it with my own eyes, how about a little info?

Which weapon(s) are you using?
Approximate range?
How much ninja dodging is going on?
Is the trans coming/going/sitting?

Titled paragraphs for your convienience.

Tranny Fraggin'
The trans is usually flying, easiest done with Shock combo, or LTG bolts. Flack prime is probable, and nearly any weapon is possible. Grens explode on impact.

Counter Sniping
I was an adamant counter sniper when I played UT, but only because I hated them so much. I believe the SR was taken out of UT going into 2k3, because it had no role in the game. I also believe that is why they don't call the LTG a sniper rifle.

I was very good at counter sniping, much in the same way I was good as avoiding spam be it razors, or flak, or mini, but just becaues learning to avoid those things are skills, doesn't make them fun, or really competative.

Even if I was doing some descent counter sniping on one of the many face only servers I'd very in-frequently visit for this reason, and being very successful at it, it being a pub, my team would usually lose. I'd lead the game in score, but be so busy fragging snipers, no flags would get capped except mine, because I couldn't defend it, or work on offense. Then taking the flag captureing out of capture the flag. Maybe in an organized game, clan match, what have you, this was easy to deal with, but pubs are a majority, and what the game should cater too IMO.

Even the suppression idea would only give you a 50% chance of them not hitting you before waiting until necessary to move, and the only buy you some time. Not solving the problem, but delaying it.

The New Sniper Rifle
I think the SR will have a place in the large scale team objective games, but currently doesn't in UT2k3, and am glad things are the way they are, and think I'll like where they're going.

The scope
I will agree that the loss of peripheral vision when zoomed is enough that you prolly don't need the scope blur (especially with the pace/trace of the game/LTG respectively), but it being as such doesn't hinder the weapons zoom function as useless as everyone makes it out to be. I hardly notice it, because I rarley zoom for very long, and am uber focused on my crosshair when I am, so it's not necessary. Between brighskins, shoulder lamps, and LTG trace, there is no real point in holding a zoom long enough to sit and snipe. I can't understand how it is so noticeable.

PainAmplifier said:

Until I get a chance to see it with my own eyes, how about a little info?

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Hey Brizz, where's that animated gif you made of Rev shooting the xLoc out of the air on Citadel?

AEnubis said:

I also believe that is why they don't call the LTG a sniper rifle.

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Only in the game. In all the scripts for the weapon it's actually still referred to as SniperRifle

The problem is that if your getting 200 ping there's probably a lot of packetloss and such. 200 ping is a very long delay between when you shoot and hit. I think the reason that sugarbear doesn't notice much of a difference is because his main weapon is the shock combo. If your a player that relies mostly on lightning gun primary shock and flak shells like most of us here you need below 75 to not have it affect you.

ChainsawMonkey said:

Hey Brizz, where's that animated gif you made of Rev shooting the xLoc out of the air on Citadel?

Only in the game. In all the scripts for the weapon it's actually still referred to as SniperRifle

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I think I have seen that one...but I'd love to see someone create another just to show that it can be done more than once. (Even I get a lucky god-like shot in every now and then. I'm more interested in being able to re-do that on a regular basis.) (OOOhhh new idea for a mini-game mutator....Translocator skeet shooting!)

And shock combos are easy due to the ball size (more so in UT) but I'm more interested in seeing it done with other weapons, since you won't always have a SR in hand to pop one off.