The "prototype" designation for the Sturmgewehr was MP-43; the MP-44 / StG-44 is the full production version.
1 Battle rifle...
- Thread starter Lasersailor184
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Actually, the prototype was the MKb.42, the MP43 was issued to troops on the eastern front. The MP44 was just a revised edition of the MP43.
I read somewhere that there was a political/public relations aspect to renaming it StG-44 - like the war was still winnable with all these fantastic "new" weapons.
...ok, fine, the AK47 was the second assault rifle. It still wasn't a battle rifle.jaunty said:
Hate to say this, but a certain Fedorov might disagree with you on that..(that is, the Ak47 being the second AR)
spm1138 said:
Actually, it was named the MP-44 because Hitler had traditionally frowned on experimental infantry rifles— but he loved submachineguns. When he was asked to vet the MP43, he looked at the name, assumed it was just another SMG revision, and said ok. Same to the MP44. As fate would have it, he eventually had a meeting with his Eastern front generals, and, asking them what they needed, one blurted out that they could use "some more of these new rifles." At that point, the secret was out, and Hitler was informed of the MP44 program, and after seeing what it could do and hearing field reports, christened it the storm rifle. Whether he did that out of being personally enamored with its capability, being crazy, out of need for something to boost morale, or some combination thereof is really up to speculation, but it was not as simple as a striaght PR decision.
I wouldn't say it was because Hitler particularly loved SMGs or hated rifles. He just didn't want to complicate things with a new, unfamiliar weapon the troops would have to retrain with, and a new ammunition type which simultaneously disrupted standardization and put to waste all the existing ammo they allready had stockpiled. They called it the MP43 so Hitler would assume it was merely a revision to the existing MP38/MP40 rather than a completely new weapon.
Spier-*Laughs* VERY good. You get the gold star. Interesting that 6.5X50 SR was the "first assault rifle " chambering.
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I'm not saying he hated rifles and loved SMGs, but he did have a reported, personal aesthetic fondness for SMGs and and understandable rational dislike for a new small arms project that would disrupt standardization. He was not exactly a small arms visionary, and I think his generals rightly assumed that he wouldn't see the assault rifle's potential until after the fact. Is ironic that he funded god knows how many secret projects and prototype weapons, though, just so long as they weren't small arms.
By the way, does anyone know how close the US .30 cal, 7.62x33mm (M1 Carbine) cartridge was to being an "intermediate" round? By the dimensions, it doesn't sound very different from the 7.92x33 Kurtz and 7.62x39 Soviet cartridges.
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Then I doubt you have really seen a 7.62x33..
The 7.62x33 is designed like a pistol bullet, the 7.92x33 Kurtz and 7.62x39 M43 are necked down.
This is a .30
http://www.northridgeinc.com/da-30.jpg
This is a 7.62x39
http://www.northridgeinc.com/sks-8.htm
The 7.62x33 is designed like a pistol bullet, the 7.92x33 Kurtz and 7.62x39 M43 are necked down.
This is a .30
http://www.northridgeinc.com/da-30.jpg
This is a 7.62x39
http://www.northridgeinc.com/sks-8.htm
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Gnam- For all practical purposes, the .30 USC is an "assault rifle" round.
Spier- The M-43 Soviet is a 124 to 127 grain slug. The .30 Carbine is a 110 grain slug. There is some velocity diffrence, but it's not as great a gap as say, the M-43 versus the M2 ball.
The .30 USC is used in weapons outside of the M1, M2, and M3 carbines. The Dominican Republic built a number of interesting Czech based designs using the little .30 Carbine round.
A bottlenecked casing does not designate application, just case construction.
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Spier- The M-43 Soviet is a 124 to 127 grain slug. The .30 Carbine is a 110 grain slug. There is some velocity diffrence, but it's not as great a gap as say, the M-43 versus the M2 ball.
The .30 USC is used in weapons outside of the M1, M2, and M3 carbines. The Dominican Republic built a number of interesting Czech based designs using the little .30 Carbine round.
A bottlenecked casing does not designate application, just case construction.
Meplat-
Makes you wonder why the M3 carbine didn't see more use. The US could have had an assault rifle a good 10 or 20 years earlier than they did.
Or the M2 Carbine (single/auto fire M1 Carbine with 30 round mag), which was in testing during the final days of WWII...
I thought the M2/M3 did see pretty widespread useage in Korea - which is actually what caused the movement away from the intermediate cartridge. If I remember correctly, one of the biggest complaints about the M1/M2/M3 was it's stopping power, or lack thereof. All of this was made even more noticeable in Korea during the winter - when opposing forces were wearing heavy winter coats, the smaller 7.62x33 round just didn't perform like the trusty .30-06 M1 Garand did... Which then led to the apparent need for a full-size battle rifle, the M14.
Everything old is new again, eh?
Matthew
I thought the M2/M3 did see pretty widespread useage in Korea - which is actually what caused the movement away from the intermediate cartridge. If I remember correctly, one of the biggest complaints about the M1/M2/M3 was it's stopping power, or lack thereof. All of this was made even more noticeable in Korea during the winter - when opposing forces were wearing heavy winter coats, the smaller 7.62x33 round just didn't perform like the trusty .30-06 M1 Garand did... Which then led to the apparent need for a full-size battle rifle, the M14.
Everything old is new again, eh?
Matthew
Also, the M2 tended to beat itself up. A superb carbine, a terrible machine gun.
Notable changes? The M2 in it's final stages had a heavier stock, a modified magazine catch, as in F/A it would auto drop the partially emptied mag (the 30 round mags have an additional tab, that the 15's lack) and a four rivet handguard. (Although this was part of the MWO 5-41 upgrades, along with the bayonet lug and rotary safety)
Cyclic rates on the M2's I've fired ranged from the perfect 500 to 600(when warmed) to as high as 1,000 on a very loose and well worn example firing hot Korean made ammo.
I've owned a few M1 carbines. I've no desire to own a M2.
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Notable changes? The M2 in it's final stages had a heavier stock, a modified magazine catch, as in F/A it would auto drop the partially emptied mag (the 30 round mags have an additional tab, that the 15's lack) and a four rivet handguard. (Although this was part of the MWO 5-41 upgrades, along with the bayonet lug and rotary safety)
Cyclic rates on the M2's I've fired ranged from the perfect 500 to 600(when warmed) to as high as 1,000 on a very loose and well worn example firing hot Korean made ammo.
I've owned a few M1 carbines. I've no desire to own a M2.
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Interesting. I'd like to see a picture of the 7.92x33. Judging by the long length of the Stg44 mag, I'm guessing the case was wider than usual, providing more charge than the 7.62x33.
Gnam-I'll see if the scanner will take a piccie. I've got a few boxes laying about.(A friend owns a decent, shootable MP44) Looks like a short chubby M43, basically. A LOT more body taper though.
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Carts
Okay, left to right we have a 7.62X63, specefically a LC72 M2 ball round
Next to it is a 7.62X51 NATO, here a British L2A2 ball round (RG88)
Then something unusual. the round the FAL was supposed to have been chambered in. the "7MM Short" ( FN55)
Next to it is a 7.5 MAS, Syrian in make. I can't read arabic, so make and date are unknown
Then, a 7.92X57, AKA "8mm Mauser" here of WW2 Austrian manufacture (1940)
Then two 7.92X33 Kurz rounds, Again, Austrian Mfg, 1945
To their left is a M-43, of recent import. Nothing special.
Then a U.S. cal.30 Carbine round, this is of Korean make, 80's vintage
And last, a nasty little 7.62X25 Tokarev round, Czech SMG ball, 50's vintage. (No headstamp)
Sorry for the greyscale, but I wanted to keep the download quick.
Meplat-
Okay, left to right we have a 7.62X63, specefically a LC72 M2 ball round
Next to it is a 7.62X51 NATO, here a British L2A2 ball round (RG88)
Then something unusual. the round the FAL was supposed to have been chambered in. the "7MM Short" ( FN55)
Next to it is a 7.5 MAS, Syrian in make. I can't read arabic, so make and date are unknown
Then, a 7.92X57, AKA "8mm Mauser" here of WW2 Austrian manufacture (1940)
Then two 7.92X33 Kurz rounds, Again, Austrian Mfg, 1945
To their left is a M-43, of recent import. Nothing special.
Then a U.S. cal.30 Carbine round, this is of Korean make, 80's vintage
And last, a nasty little 7.62X25 Tokarev round, Czech SMG ball, 50's vintage. (No headstamp)
Sorry for the greyscale, but I wanted to keep the download quick.
Meplat-
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I don't understand how anyone can call the .30 carbine round a rifle round. Technicalities aside, it's very much more a pistol round than the other way around.
And hell, there were .30 carbine pistols made post WW2 for the civilian defense (fight the red menace, etc) market intended to take advantage of the fact that M1 Carbines were alread selling exceptionally well in the civilian market. Flopped, but still.
And hell, there were .30 carbine pistols made post WW2 for the civilian defense (fight the red menace, etc) market intended to take advantage of the fact that M1 Carbines were alread selling exceptionally well in the civilian market. Flopped, but still.