2.86, too realistic?

as long as the interface doesn't become burdend down with over complexity, i'll welcome any added realism.

right now Infiltration i think does a pretty good job of simulating how a weapon looks, it's basic operation, and the general damage it does.

but as far as simulation goes... the pace of the game is way too fast to be realistic. In my opinion the speed of CQB is probably best illustratied in SWAT3, or Rainbow6/Rouge Spear, and out door combat would be OFP... (only because delta force is the only other outdoor combat game i've played)

In my experience fire and movement for CQB happens in two ways. (1) a slow and steady, stealthy, search phase, where things like stacking up and general methodical room clearing is done.-- which is currently missing from gameplay.

(2) the actuall combat: surpressive fire, utilizing cover, threat management, the good ol "double tap" ect ect.

so while although INF has done a very good job of making the weapons behaving realistically, its in the actual experience that i have doubts about.

but i'm sure as time and updates go by these issues will be addressed.

Originally posted by Harpoon
Yes. I dunno how you can take out running and gunning. You can slowly peek around a corner and the enemy will just strafe across your field of view while shooting you. (another strike against body armor)

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Where exactly does armor fit into that equation?

If you're wearing armor it would allow you possibly survive a shot or two and take him down. If he's wearing armor then he won't be moving very fast, allowing you to take him down. If you're not wearing armor and he is, well then you're a dumbass.

Back on topic:
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I don't really believe INF can become too realistic (within the scope of reason).
It can only become too realistic for it's audience, in which case a new one comes in to fill the void. If what everyone is saying about 2.86 is true then the audience will shift. For some the realism we have right now is too much. If you look at some posts around here, you'll see people complaining that inertia is too much to handle. From my perspective that's ridiculous because even Q3 has inertia. The same with auto-reload, I can't imagine someone not knowing how and when to reload. But all that's just my opinion, INF isn't made just for me. It's made for it's community, and the community as a whole wants more realism.

I just hope they do slow it down a lot... right now people run by me so fast i can barely see them. And i like the fact that u shouldnt be able to aim when ur sprinting. Maybe now it will be closer to real life. I think if the pace of the game is slowed down, it will be getting more and more real. Plus the inertia should help. Just slow it down and all will be better.

Everything is pretty real in this game so far except the speed. The weapons look real... The damage is real.... The players look real... and then the gameplay looks pretty quakeish. All because its too fast.

And about armor fitting in.... all armor does is keep your from dying after the bullet knocks the wind out of u brakes a rib or two and makes u fall over backwards.

I wouldn't exactly say the players look exactly like a perfect copy of human beings
The damage is unrealistic so far. You wound someone in the leg, he should be limping around...you shoot him in the arm he should have seriouse problems controling his gun, etc. Details such as those need to be implemented.

well ur right the damage models and player models arent REAL real but they're close enough to hav fun.... the quake style running and gunning ruins the game.

There really issent an argument here, The INF team is targetting more realism, and <i>will</i> add it regardless, and the majority of the INF community wants it, it was what attracted them to INF in the first place.

Then we have a few quakers left who, as Overon so briliantly pointed out, are now cramping around in the death spasms of their old Quake tactics, witch will from now on, be suicide, maybe not compleately with 2.86, but later releases will do away with it compleately im sure.
and they are scared, and lashing out at the new things to come, well i say boohoo, adapt or die, INF was ment to go down this road at some point regardless, prefably ASAP, you where playing on borrowed time in any event.

Now i cant figure out why they arent excited about INF lite, it does, afterall, promise to carry the current line of INF onwards, sure its just a buggy little mutator now, but it wont stay that way.
Or in any event, there are many other games that focus on the semi-real Quakish feel with realistic guns, INF <i>will</i> change, maybe its about time you realised it and found a game that is aming for what you crave, cus this one's moving in the opposite direction, 2.85-3 is not, and never was INF's final destination, just a weak step on the way twords it, and thats not by my say-so, but what the people making the game have openly stated, even if i wanted it to change direction (witch i dont), i couldent (just as you cant).

More realism for the people!

hooray, let the truth be known. Quakers run and don't look back your time is up and the reaper is breathing down your necks.

I am a Quaker The fact is, though, that I have been toning my running and gunning down since the second week of playing (about a week after my registration for this board). Another thing is, I have always been a sneaky bastard, even in Quake 2. I like to sneak up on my enemy target and take them out with extreme prejudice.

Sure, I still run and gun from time to time. I also sneak about in a stealthy manner to take out the other team as well. Some of you Quake critics seem to believe that none of us Quake players have any kind of grasp of the concepts of strategy and tactics. I find that closed minded and borderline insulting. I forgive you though, because I know better. I use whatever tactics I think are best for a given situation. <i>Read: Strategy</i>. You cannot use the same tactics over and over and expect to come out with the same results each time. The other team will adapt and throw your ass in a chipper-shredder

Another misconception you Quake critics seem to have is that Quakers do not like realism. What the hell kind of thinking is that? Suddenly anyone who plays Quake is a mindless drooling speed freak who could never appreciate realism? BS! Up until this mod, I saw very few choices in the game market for realism, so, basically I have had to settle for Quake-style play. Sue me. I love the realism of this game and I look forward to the continued movement of the project in that direction. I want to be challenged by the level of knowledge necessary to become successful with this game.

Up with realism. Down with bad attitudes about people who play Quake games. There is enough room in this world for any and all to co-exist. When I want a mindless game of run and gun, I will fire up Quake 2 or 3. When I want a more realistic simulation experience, you can bet I will fire up Infiltration and play it according to whatever tactics work best for my given situation, objective, et cetera

Suddenly anyone who plays Quake is a mindless drooling speed freak who could never appreciate realism?

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YES!

Nah, just kidding. It's just that the vast majority of FPS players (note FPS not nescessarilly quake, just games like it like UT, SOF and CS) are in fact not too bright. Ofcourse there are some people who do not immediately run off saying "T|-|1$ $uX0rz" when a player cannot go 80km/h jump 6 meter high and have uber accuracy while firing rockets all over the place and those will hopefully be attracted by games like Infiltration and Hostile Intent.

well that wouldnt bother me... except when i play infiltration i play it because i want realism... then when somebody strafes back and forth at incredible speeds while firing in full automatic in front of my face after coming up a stairway in hlaf a second and im dead b4 i even see them.... well that ruins everything. and yeah.... its "strategy" and yeah.... it works the best right now..... but so does camping in a corner of a map forever with a rifle, and u dont see everybody doing that do u... they dont do it because it ruins gameplay. So the realistic infiltration community looks upon quake style running and gunning at incredible speeds as they look at camping ..... just another way to ruin gameplay. Just because it lets u win the war doesnt mean its right.

Well in Quake, UT etc. the strategy and tactics mostly consists of item managment. I don't like that. I always prefered something like InstaGib-CTF in UT. Though the only bad thing about it was that a very good bunny-hopping fragger could take out a good working team of 3 not so good players pretty easily.
In Infiltration 2.86 he achieves this only with exteme luck (I hope).

Ummm...most of the community realism community does not look at camping as invalid, from what I have seen. The real military is all about camping, in case you did not notice As for the running and gunning thing, well, I only do that now because basically I have to or the other runner-gunners will shoot me d-e-a-d dead. Once the speeds are toned down, the aim is more effected by speed and we have inertia to effect how quickly we can come to a complete stop, I will not have to resort to that tactic anymore

BTW, I just posted a question about the Inertia System in the New Version Suggestions Forum. Please check it out by clicking <a href="http://forums.planetunreal.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79819">here</a>. Thanks

camping. again. *sigh*

camping in a corner of a map forever with a rifle, and u dont see everybody doing that do u... they dont do it because it ruins gameplay. So the realistic infiltration community looks upon quake style running and gunning at incredible speeds as they look at camping ..... just another way to ruin gameplay. Just because it lets u win the war doesnt mean its right.

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I hate to bring this often hot topic up again, and I sincerely hope it doesn't start a flame session. However, I felt the need to express my opinion here. Personally, I feel that "camping" or as I've seen it called (which is just too cute imho) "strategic location management" (i'd give credit here if i could remember who coined that) is a perfectly legitimate tactic for this game. For those who don't like it, that's what the last player count down is for. Another option is to get a couple of your team mates and do an organized sweep and clear. You do realize that the odds of finding somebody are much greater if they are not moving than if they are, right? Anybody who's taken a basic survival course (Boy Scouts even learn this) would know this - when you get lost, you park it, because that gives the search parties the best chance of finding you. If you don't move, and they cover 100% of the ground, odds are 100% that they will come across you. If you are also moving, there's a chance that you will miss each other. So, I humbly request, please stop whining about campers - if you don't like them, sweep and clear!

c+k|nEVeRmOre, im not referring to anyone who plays Quake, hell, before i got into INF, i played AQ2, im refering to the people who never stoped playing Quake, IE they will play any game as if it was Quake, and f<b></b>uck you if you try to tell them that this is not how it was intended.

The people im talking about are the ones who really are reflex speed drones, the same people who as soon as lowering speed is metioned, get scared, because it, coupled with reflexes, is the only thing that makes them win, and that often results in much nasty name calling and various flame fests, they rely soely on on speed, strafing and bunny hopping etc etc, and will make idiots of themselves when someone mentions reducing any of it in favour of realism, and an enhanced team experiance.

Thouse are the people my beef lies with, the rambo's who could care less about their team, who's only hunting a higher frag count, and who still plays INF as if it was a Quake2 DM, and now that INF is finally making that harder, they start to whine and moan, for me its just obvious that INF issent their thing, and that they should move on, instead of bothering us with all their crap, INF is about realism, if you like that, have a seat and lets have some fun, if you dont like that, no problem, move along bubba, we dont need to hear about it, and no, it wont change just to fit youre needs.

Im really angtious for this release, as it promises to set the physical rules of the game in perspective (IE realism), and my hope is that the people who doesent want realism in INF, and will try to tell you even to this day that since INF issent all that real right now, it never should be, will finally understand that realism is indeed the name of the game.
I do allso have a little hope that it will rid us of some of the hardcore anti-realism people who hangs around, and do their best to destroy any good idea that would bring more realism and teamplay to the game, but it may just be too much to hope for

On the topic of camping witch has sprung up, i think far too many people look at the issue one-eyed, there are two forms of camping, one witch i think not only is acceptable, but should be encurraged, and one witch i feel is a crime punishable by death.

Bad camping:

Bad camping is when someone hides in a corner of the spawn area, in a small room with only one entrance, with the weapon aimed at the door at all times, and doesent leave this corner for the whole duration of a round, this kills any round based team game, rounds will drag on for ever looking for this player (thank god for last player time, but that doesent help if there are two of the bastards), and to put it mildly, they are only in it for themselves, they arent serving their team in any way, they are just covering their own a<b></b>rse, its chicken

Good camping:

Good camping is any for of sniping, or ambush, its holding a strong point for youre team, not letting the enemy trough so they can flank them, its finding a good sniping position, and apart from hopefully reducng the opposite team by a few men, its allso to make an area too risky to cross, forcing the enemy to head where you want them, its setting up an ambush, to opefully reduce their numbers enough to make wining easier on youre team.

Weather a camer is good or bad, can easilly be answered by "Is he doing it for himself only? or as a part of his team?", it should be that simple (and no, falling back behind cover issent just selfish, a live team member helps allot more than a dead one).

Goat, for once I have to agree with you on your camping breakdown

I began as an Action Quaker myself (I even remember you) and I ran one of the most popular AQ2 servers as well. I disagree with you in this regard, most ex-quake players who are any good adapt to the game/mod they are playing. I could strafe/bunny hop with the best of them in AQ2, but it is not a good strategy in INF so I don't employ it.

The new release sounds like it will initially hinder the rushing CQB'r, but to all of you who thinks this will discourage them or make them any less skilled are mistaken. Most of them are very talented players and they will adapt to the changes, and if you couldn't hit them before, it won't be any easier for you now, since the changes affect you as well.

Everyone may as well realize that some players are better, no matter what they do, or how they do it.

The difference is that movement in 286 will ONLY make you vulnerable it has no other use then to get from place to place. Like IRL thinking and "strategic location management" will be the ONLY important thing.

That means that many of the "good" players will have to start thinking or they will suddenly find themselves allong the "crap" players.

Im not talking about good Quake players in particullar {PhD}Teutonic, good or bad makes no difference, im only talking about the ones who refuse to adapt, and will do anything possible to make the game play as Quake DM.
And right now, INF lets them, UT's movement system is not much differend from what we remember in Quake, and ATM, INF just uses UT's movement system + stamina, nothings really stopping the reflex speed drones from just doing what they allways did, they can change direction or stop on a dime, and move at insane speeds that makes it near impossible for the player who is trying to play within the limits of reality to get a clean shot at them, right now you have to addapt to the same strafing refelx tactics if an atleast just good player is doing it, or you will die.

2.86 will change allot of that, inertia means that you can nolonger stop on that dime and change direction, anyone playing with realism in mind will have a chance to lead a strafing target, and take him down, and thouse speeds that usually gives the DM'er (its prolly a much better word than Quaker) the huge advantedge of just beeing all over the damn place in split seconds will nolonger do much to help him, as now he cant hit for s<b></b>hit while doing it, rendering it a defensive tactic only, not an offencive oppertunity.
And the Jog will just make more sence to use all of a sudden, and games wont degenerate into CS style rush'n spam the bottleneck fests (i hope).

I think allot of thease features will give us a much more mature gaming experiance, now people have to use their brains slightly more, and use the terrain to their advantedge, instead of just relying on blind reflex, i have seen what just limiting strafe speed can do to a game of DOD, and it is really cool

Fur, since you have admitted you don't have 2.85 loaded on your system, and that you don't play online, I doubt you know what you are talking about.

The main purpose of running is to get to a pre-determined point on the map before your opponent, so you can:

A)Stop an assault from that area

B)Start an assault from that area

C)Set up a Sniper to watch that area

D)Etc, Etc.

"Good" players adapt to different maps, they adapt their strategies depending on whom they play, If they are playing on a server with a bad connection, they adapt their style as best they can, etc.

"Crap" players are narrow-minded & they are unable to adapt to anything, hence being called "crap".

Sorry to bring this issue in here but the other threads concerning this have become utterly stupid:

Originally posted by {PhD}Teutonic
I could strafe/bunny hop with the best of them in AQ2, but it is not a good strategy in INF so I don't employ it.

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I hope that's not the only reason to not bunny hop in Inf.
I think the differences in opinion on exactly this is the core of the whole teamwork/realism/inf is for everyone debate.
There are players like me and probably Goat_****er and The_Fur (if I interpret their postings coreectly) who think it is more important to play realistically than to play well ("well" as in "frag them all"). For example I have never sprinted with my weapon in aiming position since Inf 2.80 as I think it's stupid and not realistic (especially with scope)
Of course personally I'd like to see the Inf team to force this feature, I don't like the disadvantge. And I voiced my wish a few times. Though I am not going to change it no matter what, because "But the others do it too" has always been one of the lamest reasoning for everything.

Players like me are not into it because we want to win. We want the immersion of an simulator. But unfortunately people who abuse every **** in a game (that includes bunny hopping - at least in a game with realistic setting) ruin that experience. That's why I stopped playing online.
The other way round it doesn't work - you can't ruin a bug abuser's game by playing self-restrictive. That's the reason why such players are heavily dependant on voicing their opinion here in this forum.