Major UE3 Upgrades Debut At GDC '09

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r1esG0

Unreal Engine Padawan
Feb 4, 2008
174
0
0
Seville, Spain
Well, i think i see your point.
I am going to point just more or less what everyone of us know.

There are 2 kinds of games. Almost open source games, like ut3 in this example, that allows you to play with unreal script, make custom total conversions, and maps and everything,

and closed ones, like Gears of Wars 2 that only are released for console, and with much more restrictions... "we want you, just play the game, finish it, and buy the next one, and dont make weird stuff that could extend the life of the game preventing people from buying the next installment when we release it next year..." ( and im not saying epic says this, just use your imagination to see an evil publisher who could say this)

We should thank we have open source games, to use the engine on our mods (or games, a total conversion is a whole new game, using the engine, plain and simple).


Oviously, unreal engine is going to get evolving and evolving and evolving, but the community will only use the engine version which comes with the open source game .

And this game i suppose, is not planned to receive every engine updates taht is released, just patches to fix gameplay or add content.

Even thoug I have discovered happily that the character illumination and other improvements have been made on ut3´s version of the engine itself, and i thank them for this: mod makers will be able to make their characters look a lot better.

Its much more that one could have expected, but certainly, if you want the next big engine improvement, your only hope is to wait for the next open source game, (maybe ut4?).

Until then, think that you have a very good game engine on your hands. Could you try to use every advantage that is given to you with this, and make a good mod?
 

Armagon917

TOAST
Mar 6, 2008
339
0
0
The Woodlands, Texas
i understand what you're saying. i do not think that a developer is required or we should think we're entitled to the tools used to create games. my major concern is way down the road where we might have this situation where developers are so transfixed on console that releases of editors/ mod tools become a rare thing as console becomes more and more of a focus.

i believe Kenneth Scott got noticed by the games industry for his skin called "DOOM guy" for Quake. back then it was new tech, sprites being replaced with geometry for characters and other things.

maybe a level designer could have gotten noticed and offered a job based off clever use of the meat cube effect/ soft body physics in his/ her level. the mod community does indeed have great tools thanks to EPIC, Valve, and other developers. i'm really trying to point out the industry aspect of this and how this might effect people trying to get into the games industry and then that will filter on down to the next generation of game developers.

i know peple into machinima are still frustrated at not having the update to Unreal Engine 3 we saw with Gears 2 for huge crowds to be displayed onscreen. that functionality would help there. i'm not pointing the finger at anyone really just concerned that this may be a more serious problem in the future.

SDK Base Orange from Valve updated the Source engine with HDR and I believe motion blur. i would love to see EPIC do this with the new features somewhere down the road.
 

elmuerte

Master of Science
Jan 25, 2000
1,936
0
36
42
the Netherlands
elmuerte.com
There is no causation relation between engine features and good mods.
Not having certain features does prevent you from making a good mod.
Landing an industry job doesn't require you to use the latest and greatest tools, it's what you do with the tools you've got.
 

Armagon917

TOAST
Mar 6, 2008
339
0
0
The Woodlands, Texas
There is no causation relation between engine features and good mods.
Not having certain features does prevent you from making a good mod.
Landing an industry job doesn't require you to use the latest and greatest tools, it's what you do with the tools you've got.

yes a good mod is a good mod. you can go out and make a good quake 2 mod. will this be relevant at all to gamers? maybe the very small active quake 2 fanbase. simply put the technology is old and the standard of what can be done has been raised dramatically.

so lets say you create a great quake 2 mod and put it to your portfolio and send that off to a dev that is looking for a current generation texture artist. since using an engine that old while your mod may be good you never had the chance to show material based current generation content in your mod to that developer. normal maps are not available, along with other features.

consoles have always been attractive to developers but primary focus on console evelopment on this scale has really just started. it is possible that key features in developing tech may not see their way to mod makers. if physics were not available there would be a few mods that would not have been possible.

i can throw out scenarios, but the furtherance of what we're seeing on a small level may become a big deal if major features that set the standard in the future are not available on PCs.



"and I would like $10,000,000" what was the point in that? why be rude to Kazimira? i can't say i get a good vibe off you sir.
 
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elmuerte

Master of Science
Jan 25, 2000
1,936
0
36
42
the Netherlands
elmuerte.com
That's true but it will definitely help a bit if they know you already know the tools they are using, which 99% of the time is probably going to be the latest and greatest :p

I highly doubt having access to the latest and greatest tools will make you successful. You first need to learn the basics, and then some. The latest and greatest stuff doesn't help you much in learning how to use the tools of the trade. They are only useful if you reached an advanced level, and in that case you should be good enough to be considered for a professional position (on an artistic level, programming is a different thing).

yes a good mod is a good mod. you can go out and make a good quake 2 mod. will this be relevant at all to gamers? maybe the very small active quake 2 fanbase. simply put the technology is old and the standard of what can be done has been raised dramatically.

so lets say you create a great quake 2 mod and put it to your portfolio and send that off to a dev that is looking for a current generation texture artist. since using an engine that old while your mod may be good you never had the chance to show material based current generation content in your mod to that developer. normal maps are not available, along with other features.

Good job comparing a 10+ year old apple with a 2 year old apple.
Quake 2 has been deprecated by newer available technology. UT3 is not.
Also, since UT3 no principles in level design have changed, it's still a bit of BSP and static meshes, and what not. As for sound and programming, not a lot has changed. Not being able to create a soft meat cube has stopped iD from creating organic looking materials in Quake 3.

consoles have always been attractive to developers but primary focus on console evelopment on this scale has really just started. it is possible that key features in developing tech may not see their way to mod makers. if physics were not available there would be a few mods that would not have been possible.

That statement is bull****. Physics have always been possible, it's just much easier and more realistic these days. The UE1 based game Deus Ex has physics puzzles, even though the physics in that period where simply very basic.

But I don't see your point about mods not being possible in the past. There will always be mods which are not possible to be created right now. For example, it is currently impossible to create a mod with a completely destructible world. And I doubt that will ever be possible. A mod that uses webpages as source of the automatically generated of complete levels is currently impossible, and I doubt it ever will (in the UnrealEngine).


"and I would like $10,000,000" what was the point in that? why be rude to Kazimira? i can't say i get a good vibe off you sir.
I wasn't being rude. I was making a point. You can ask Santa for everything you want. But that doesn't mean you will ever get it, so stop letting it hold you back.
Updating UT3's version of UE3 is a massive amount of work which is very error prone. Even backporting certain features will be. I doubt Epic Games won't risk that. You'd sooner see a new UE3 based game for the PC that will be very mod'able than an serious engine update for UT3.
 

Armagon917

TOAST
Mar 6, 2008
339
0
0
The Woodlands, Texas
Good job comparing a 10+ year old apple with a 2 year old apple.
Quake 2 has been deprecated by newer available technology. UT3 is not.

thankyou for agreeing with my point which you completely missed.

"yes a good mod is a good mod. you can go out and make a good quake 2 mod. will this be relevant at all to gamers? maybe the very small active quake 2 fanbase. simply put the technology is old and the standard of what can be done has been raised dramatically."

as far as UT3/Unreal Engine 3 goes i was stating that those engine updates could be used to make some very cool mods. i did link it to a possible future problem with my quake 2 comparison.

"i can throw out scenarios, but the furtherance of what we're seeing on a small level may become a big deal if major features that set the standard in the future are not available on PCs."

hence my quake 2 comparison and how a lack of tools over on the PC side overtime could and probably would hinder the mod community a lot. if we were using quake 2 technology now because tools were not released on PC for the last decade+ because of exclusives or a situation where tools/tech was not made available to the mod community. like i said we are seeing this on a small level with updates to Unreal Engine 3. nothing immediately threatening, only disappointing to some. i was pointing out that if groundbreaking advancements are made on console and kept there mods made on PC could end up looking completely irrelevant.

I wasn't being rude. I was making a point. You can ask Santa for everything you want. But that doesn't mean you will ever get it, so stop letting it hold you back.
Updating UT3's version of UE3 is a massive amount of work which is very error prone. Even backporting certain features will be. I doubt Epic Games won't risk that. You'd sooner see a new UE3 based game for the PC that will be very mod'able than an serious engine update for UT3.

assumptions. i am in fact using Unreal Engine 2 for something special that i am not ready to announce yet for UT2004 players. i didn't ask for an updated Unreal Engine 3 running UT3. please show me where i said anything close to that? i also gave EPIC credit for giving the mod community tools to work with. you simply missed my point.

as far as how you made your point rude was the wrong term snide would have fit it better. why not just simply explain minus the stupid Santa metaphor. please read a bit more carefully. its not that i disagree with you on everything more that you disagree with points i'm not even making.

edit: i did mention since Gears 2 won't see PC we will likely not see the updates to Unreal Engine 3 available to the mod community because of it being an exclusive. is that how you made that link? an updated engine for UT3? I agree it would be a poor choice for EPIC to implement that into UT3, but i never made the argument they should. best situation would be an editor update with a retail version of Gears 2 for PC in which the updates are already implemented into the core... well everything. which we seem to agree on... your last sentence, second quote.
 
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Kantham

Fool.
Sep 17, 2004
18,034
2
38
I heard they will have AI nav mesh support too (no more pathnodes)...

That sound interesting, just have to see how it turns out for both say DM and Warfare setups.

Kind of sucks they can't throw in the new tech using UT3 via download for us. (How long we have to wait to get a new UT/Game FROM EPIC GAMES ON THE PC using the next version of the engine is where I'm getting at..)

I am still hoping EPIC can make use of GI for UT3 or maybe UT4, and along with old school style of details. Sometimes too many details just ruin the gameplay experience IMO.

Right down with you. Mirror's Edge is a perfect example of next gen visuals and detailed, that works all in one package.

Even if when it's white or not, it's clean and simple on brain when you're deep down in the action, it would be PERFECT for UT DM/CTF. Their problem is how their art is Gears of War-focused, and how they think gimmick maps are good, and spider mines work in DM.
 
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Armagon917

TOAST
Mar 6, 2008
339
0
0
The Woodlands, Texas
But I don't see your point about mods not being possible in the past. There will always be mods which are not possible to be created right now. For example, it is currently impossible to create a mod with a completely destructible world. And I doubt that will ever be possible.

i'm not talking about the past (future actually), only using it as an example. very clear here.
it is simply a what if scenario that quake 2 level technology is our current available tech for mod makers now based on advancements being made and staying on consoles based on the Gears 2 model and a likely exclusive Gears 3making mod tools unavailable with the new features for the PC mod community. I stated that the Gears 3 exclusive is speculative but that i believe thats how it (Gears 3) will play out. as far as how up to date tools are made to the PC mod community i am not sure but i see a threat there.

i go on to make a point that if that happened, using quake 2 level tech would be irrelevant. clear?
 
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Armagon917

TOAST
Mar 6, 2008
339
0
0
The Woodlands, Texas
That sound interesting, just have to see how it turns out for both say DM and Warfare setups.

Kind of sucks they can't throw in the new tech using UT3 via download for us. (How long we have to wait to get a new UT/Game FROM EPIC GAMES ON THE PC using the next version of the engine is where I'm getting at..)



Right down with you. Mirror's Edge is a perfect example of next gen visuals and detailed, that works all in one package.

Even if when it's white or not, it's clean and simple on brain when you're deep down in the action, it would be PERFECT for UT DM/CTF. Their problem is how their art is Gears of War-focused, and how they think gimmick maps are good, and spider mines work in DM.

right on, less is often more. too much detail and contast are very basic elements in art that i am surprised were not broken up by lighting or more simplistic designs in other areas to compliment highly detailed areas. i said the same thing a page back but can't agree with you enough on this point.

major areas of a level must be defined so you are not swimming through a jungle of gorgeous but confusing detail to discover oh look theres the Rocket Launcher. :)
 
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Kantham

Fool.
Sep 17, 2004
18,034
2
38
Armagon917, I do believe Epic Games will stick to the direction they've been taking now (GoW themes/Gimmicks/Unbalanced stuff). Unless they come up with a new UT completely out of the GoW-esque universe, then we'll have to wait for another developer to bring back that old feel with the latest engine on the market.

I WHINED IN THIS THREAD ABOUT UT3!

You used caps lock.

Achievement unlocked?

This I have, this we all have.

Oh wait, no, a few don't! They whine about UT3 OUTSIDE the forums, that is MUCH cooler guize!
 
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Kazimira

Necris Fan
Dec 13, 2008
664
0
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UK
kazumitsu.deviantart.com
It would be alot of work to impliment the new elements for the engine into UT3 but as updates to the editor and code in a few places then extra options for graphics where the effect is global well the rest of the game is made. It would be more simple to add to an already established game than to make a hole new one. Also it's the Unreal engine what better place to set it up and see what the communaty does with it than an Unreal game?

I'm not talking about rewrites of levels or giant map brakeing changes. Just additions where it alows the communaty to play with the tools epic made. The game may not look any diffrent even with the extra code to support those new editor features in maps and other content players have made.

The Unreal Engine has developed alot since UT3 and this is where the old technology example comes in from Armagon917. If we dont get a chance to use the technology we dont get a chance to show what we can do with it and those wanting a way into the industry wont get a chance.