a terrible day in Connecticut.

Wow, sounds like someone's bubble has burst.

Do you really think that we're saying something that hasn't already been thought of before? Every time an event like this happens there's armies of people that emerge demanding to get to the bottom of this problem. The media is ever willing to play this game. Over the next two weeks you're going to see the media parade every expert out there and ask them the question "why does this happen?" You might not think anybody is coming up with a productive answer, but the question is asked. And then a few weeks go by and everyone forgets about it.

The problem is that we are asking the wrong question. We continue to fall into this trap that if we somehow structure our society the right way all our problems will be solved, and we'll have finally achieved utopia. The ultimate pipe dream. Well I've got news for everyone. That's never going to happen. There is no rhyme or reason to evil. There's a million reasons why someone might be led to such acts. It doesn't matter! As soon as you come up with one reason, another event will come along to dash your theories to pieces. Evil will always exist, and it will continue to grow despite our best efforts.

So we have a choice. If we continue on our current path then we will continue the endless cycle of asking why and never getting a definitive answer. I propose that we simply accept the fact that it happens, and move on to actually formulating solutions. Because at the end of the day we are right about the important thing. We can prevent this.

Guy harms kids instead of adults. What's your conclusion ?

Gay. Atleast the shooter is dead.

[M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4[/M]


Stop being interested in shootings, unless they literally happen in your backyard. People kill other people, including kids, all the time, every day. Sucks.

you didn't really address any of my points so I guess I'll just repeat myself where appropriate.

TWD said:

You might not think anybody is coming up with a productive answer, but the question is asked. And then a few weeks go by and everyone forgets about it.

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I never said that the question isn't being asked.
I just don't think that the discussion is honest.

the "experts" that get walked out in front of the cameras are not serious people else they wouldn't allow themselves to be walked out in front of a camera to deliver their 5 minute soundbyte.
that's not how a serious dialogue works. that's another television farce. it's a stage performance in which Mr. Video Games Are Bad gets to yell at Mr. Parents Are Terrible while they both make fun of Mrs. The Country Has Gotten Away From God.

this is not productive.

We continue to fall into this trap that if we somehow structure our society the right way all our problems will be solved, and we'll have finally achieved utopia.

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I don't know who you might be referring to, but I've never met a single serious person who actually believes in the "right way" to organize society or that "all of our problems" can be solved.
no one truly believes that, so your entire following paragraph is little more than hot air...

...however:

There's a million reasons why someone might be led to such acts. It doesn't matter! As soon as you come up with one reason, another event will come along to dash your theories to pieces. Evil will always exist, and it will continue to grow despite our best efforts.

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this is more bullshit.

everyone agrees that there are multiple factors which lead to such an outcome.
but just because there are multiple reasons doesn't mean that any one of them "don't matter." of course they matter. how could you possibly say otherwise? we would never make any progress on ANY social issue if we always threw up our hands and said "there's too many factors at play, so let's just give up."

that's ridiculous.

again, I don't know if you're using the word "evil" in the religious sense or merely as a crude description of society, but just because there will always be bad people doesn't mean we have to sit on our hands and do NOTHING to try and address the implication of their existence. that doesn't make any sense. that's an absurd way to view the world.

"evil" does not "continue to grow" unabated or in spite of our best efforts.
that's some fatalistic, fundamental ignorance if I've ever heard it. it's also completely untrue. the world at large is far less evil and dangerous than it was in the not-too-distant past and it's thanks directly to our intervention (as a species) into situations and circumstances that we realized needed our attention.

I propose that we simply accept the fact that it happens, and move on to actually formulating solutions. Because at the end of the day we are right about the important thing. We can prevent this.

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so we agree?

how can you simultaneously hold the positions of 'nothing will change' and 'we can change things' and keep a straight face?
I'm confused.

ZenPirate said:

So.... how the hell did he have access to weapons? I really have a sinking feeling that this is like the Arizona Gifford shooting. A guy everyone, including his family, new had serious mental issues yet still was allowed access to firearms. WTF

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this is pretty much my main point.

we don't need a discussion in this country about firearm legislation.
we need a discussion about our mental health system and processes as they exist within our current firearm culture.

My brother is crazy. He's now in a state run nut house. It took 10 years to get him in there. In those 10 years, he went from saying weird things randomly to completely forgetting where he was and going on rampages. We wanted to get him help as soon as he started saying weird things, but there is literally nothing out there for most people. All people in these conditions can do is see doctors, get drugs, and everyone hopes they actually take the drugs while walking around in public freely. My brother didn't take his drugs even though we tried everything to get him to take them.

Towards the end before he was institutionalized he physically attacked my mom, stole my dad's credit card and bought a car with it. If he somehow had access to a gun people would probably be dead right now. We were lucky. We found him, and in the next few weeks he was finally put away. Prior to that, every time he went on a crazy rampage police would pick him up, lock him up for the night, and then just let him go and forget about him. Even after pleading with them to keep him longer they refused because there were 1000 other crazy people out there to round up and only so many jail cells.

The solution is pretty fucking simple. People have the right to bear arms and no one should have a problem with that. EVERYONE should have a problem with the fact that anyone can physically load and use a weapon whenever they feel like it if they have access to it. I think all firearms should be retrofitted in a way that would only allow the licensed user to use it. Fingerprint scans, whatever, it's not impossible to do these days. It should be a law with serious consequences, not just a suggestion. Ammunition should also be tagged to buyers. If a crazed maniac is shooting people with Bob's ammo that he bought at Walmart and left sitting out, fucking Bob is an asshole and shouldn't be allowed to have a gun anymore.

Secondly, a crazy guy like my brother shouldn't be allowed to roam the streets for 10 years before finally being placed in a mental institution. This is just common sense. We're obsessed with cancer in this country but completely ignore routine mental health testing. If you're truly nuts it's impossible to hide. A simple screening process would do wonders. This school shooting happened because a crazy kid snapped and his mom never did much to stop him from doing something like this. She was probably in denial even though she saw obvious signs something was wrong. We cannot depend on parents doing the right thing when it comes to their children's future. Some people just refuse to realize their kid is nuts and can't be in public anymore.

Criminals won't hand their firearms in to be retro-fitted with anything. Changing the gun laws won't change anything. The horse has long since left that stable.

We do get the occasional loner going nuts but no-where near as often as you guys. Our last major one was Dunblane.

Are there no charities that could help get support for people with mental health issues? We have several over here plus the health care is free (sort of but that's another debate).

Unspeakable. I can't really add anything over what others have said.

I think those pointing the finger at news media are probably on the right track. It's the inadvertent glorification of the people who carry out these acts that helps them perpetuate.

People still speak about Columbine. That was turned into a three-ringed media circus, and it will be used as example, both by those who wish to stop these kinds of acts and by those who wish to perpetrate them.

The right to bear arms isn't really an issue here. The right to bear arms by those who are unsafe to posses them is. There needs to be stricter controls covering the past history and temperament of those who seek to obtain firearms. I doubt the writers of the US Constitution would have objected to that.

DarkED said:

The school system would need to employ heavily-armed private security forces as a deterrent to make these shootings stop. It'll never happen because it would cost each state millions.

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I would possibly say that the last thing you want is to make a school a potentially more violent place. Also, by violent, I mean in terms of views and atmosphere, not in terms of any actual violent acts.

Selerox said:

I think those pointing the finger at news media are probably on the right track. It's the inadvertent glorification of the people who carry out these acts that helps them perpetuate.

People still speak about Columbine. That was turned into a three-ringed media circus, and it will be used as example, both by those who wish to stop these kinds of acts and by those who wish to perpetrate them.

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There's definitely something in this. But news stories increase ratings which in turn increases the profit on the advertising slots. You could try boycotting the companies that buy the advertising slots but that won't really have an effect. Money talks as always.

Selerox said:

The right to bear arms isn't really an issue here. The right to bear arms by those who are unsafe to posses them is. There needs to be stricter controls covering the past history and temperament of those who seek to obtain firearms. I doubt the writers of the US Constitution would have objected to that.

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The more difficult the legal route, the more attractive and easy the illegal route becomes. Also these shootings are pre-meditated. The perpetrators won't care whether the guns are legal or illegal. Plus they won't submit themselves for any kind of testing

Selerox said:

I would possibly say that the last thing you want is to make a school a potentially more violent place. Also, by violent, I mean in terms of views and atmosphere, not in terms of any actual violent acts.

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This I agree with.

gotta admit, just calling these events "evil" doesn't really solve anything, it just make it into a political/religious thing.

Stifle or even attempt to moderate the media and you invoke the suppression of free speech crowd.

Limit access to weapons and you get the nut jobs who feel that everyone deserves a Glock 9 in their stocking.

There is no attainable solution to end this kind of violence, even with full-on access to mental health care and screenings, without consensus on the problems.

Unfortunately, our society has devolved to a level where we glorify violence in our entertainment and in the media. We put the above 2 privileges ahead of common sense and compassion, while making mental health a back room issue and increasingly make it harder to get adequate health care.

Kids, with parents backing, today revel and strive to achieve beauty or best in class status, based on what TV and magazines tell them to be. I have no doubt the killer in question here was deranged, but probably initiated or aggravated by bullying and inability to fit in; by a parent or parents who denied there were problems; etc. I think I heard there was a form of Autism in the killer. You've no doubt seen first-hand how cruel bullying kids in school can be towards someone different; to get a laugh or make themselves feel superior or powerful, they must attack and belittle someone else. Then there's this pervasive pressure to push challenged children into mainstream schooling - when mainstream schooling can often be the wild west on the playground, especially with underfunded schools.

I am not defending the killer, but as to the whys question above, unless we address the sources of the problems, it will continue to happen.

I think Deathbooger's reply and suggestions make a lot of sense in today's world:

The solution is pretty ****ing simple. People have the right to bear arms and no one should have a problem with that. EVERYONE should have a problem with the fact that anyone can physically load and use a weapon whenever they feel like it if they have access to it. I think all firearms should be retrofitted in a way that would only allow the licensed user to use it. Fingerprint scans, whatever, it's not impossible to do these days. It should be a law with serious consequences, not just a suggestion. Ammunition should also be tagged to buyers. If a crazed maniac is shooting people with Bob's ammo that he bought at Walmart and left sitting out, ****ing Bob is an asshole and shouldn't be allowed to have a gun anymore.

Secondly, a crazy guy like my brother shouldn't be allowed to roam the streets for 10 years before finally being placed in a mental institution. This is just common sense. We're obsessed with cancer in this country but completely ignore routine mental health testing. If you're truly nuts it's impossible to hide. A simple screening process would do wonders. This school shooting happened because a crazy kid snapped and his mom never did much to stop him from doing something like this. She was probably in denial even though she saw obvious signs something was wrong. We cannot depend on parents doing the right thing when it comes to their children's future. Some people just refuse to realize their kid is nuts and can't be in public anymore.

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Luv_Studd said:

I am not defending the killer, but as to the whys question above, unless we address the sources of the problems, it will continue to happen.

I think Deathbooger's reply and suggestions make a lot of sense in today's world:

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Yes

Another shooting happened in Las Vegas. The psychos couldn't have waited another week until the 21st?

DeathBooger said:

The solution is pretty fucking simple. People have the right to bear arms and no one should have a problem with that. EVERYONE should have a problem with the fact that anyone can physically load and use a weapon whenever they feel like it if they have access to it. I think all firearms should be retrofitted in a way that would only allow the licensed user to use it. Fingerprint scans, whatever, it's not impossible to do these days. It should be a law with serious consequences, not just a suggestion. Ammunition should also be tagged to buyers. If a crazed maniac is shooting people with Bob's ammo that he bought at Walmart and left sitting out, fucking Bob is an asshole and shouldn't be allowed to have a gun anymore.

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A gun needs to be ready to use on the spot for self defense purposes. I'd hate to have a fingerprint scanner malfunction in a life or death situation. And if the future really is Metal Gear style ID tagged weapons, how does that actually help? A psychopath with a clean history can still buy a weapon. Plus the non-ID tagged weapons will still exist.

Part of the problem is that when the right to bear arms was written, guns were single shot muskets that were awkward and time consuming to reload. But now we have access to weapons that f*cking SWAT uses. Why???

ZenPirate said:

Considering a 30 something year old Chinese man attacked 22 in a chinese school today armed with a knife I don't see where gun control really makes a difference when it comes to insane people on a mission.

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The knife wielder killed zero; the shooter killed many.

Firefly said:

Criminals won't hand their firearms in to be retro-fitted with anything. Changing the gun laws won't change anything. The horse has long since left that stable.

We do get the occasional loner going nuts but no-where near as often as you guys. Our last major one was Dunblane.

Are there no charities that could help get support for people with mental health issues? We have several over here plus the health care is free (sort of but that's another debate).

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The people doing these things do not have criminal records. That is an entirely different issue. No one sees it coming because no one has even tried to make sure mental people stay away from weapons. If you're tested and shown to be on the crazy side, there is no logical reason why anyone should be allowed to have a weapon within easy grasp by you.

There are plenty of charities for mental health in this country. The problem is crazy people don't think they're crazy and they have full rights to do whatever they want until the state says they are crazy and belong in an institution. Like I said earlier, it took 10 years for my brother for that to happen. I don't like the idea of rights being removed quickly with out testing, but 10 years is a joke and needs to be a lot better.

As it turns out, the shooter's mother may have only been a substitute teacher at the school. Her name is not on the staff or faculty list. This makes this all the more a mystery as to why this nutbag killed the children (or anyone else at the school).

Nutbag steals his mother's weapons, kills her, and then goes on a rampage, ending his own life afterwards. Yeah, I can clearly see how more gun laws would have prevented this tragedy.

If we want to discuss mental health, then we travel down yet another avenue that likely would have had little affect on preventing this mass killing. Some folks who have been interviewed say that the shooter was a lone wolf type, somewhat reserved and shy, if perhaps a bit odd or strange in his interfacing with others. So, all you Freud wannabes, how do you determine who is mentally unfit and who is not but meets this base profile? I mean, after all, Thomas Edison fit this profile and look at what he accomplished.

oosyxxx said:

The knife wielder killed zero; the shooter killed many.

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I think you missed the point entirely. It proves that you don't need guns to go on a psychotic rampage and if you really want to hurt somebody, you can do it through any means possible. Yeah he didn't kill anyone, but he did hurt a lot of people.

Twisted Metal said:

A gun needs to be ready to use on the spot for self defense purposes. I'd hate to have a fingerprint scanner malfunction in a life or death situation. And if the future really is Metal Gear style ID tagged weapons, how does that actually help? A psychopath with a clean history can still buy a weapon. Plus the non-ID tagged weapons will still exist.

Part of the problem is that when the right to bear arms was written, guns were single shot muskets that were awkward and time consuming to reload. But now we have access to weapons that f*cking SWAT uses. Why???

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Why are you worried about a scanner malfunctioning and not the gun itself malfunctioning? Both can happen and since the scanner doesn't even exist you can't say it's more likely to fail than a gun malfunctioning on it's own.

Non-tagged weapons should be a criminal offense and if a crazy person got your non-tagged weapon you should be in trouble as much as the crazy person is because you're short sidedness helped kill people. If you look at the past examples, it's always a gun from someone the crazy person knew personally and they just freely took it with out asking. None of these psychos are buying guns in the streets. They most likely lacked the social skills to even pull something like that off.

From October 1997 to March 2001 there were 10 high-profile shootings in America's schools. Handguns were among the weapons used in nine of the 10 shootings. Despite the fact that school-aged children cannot legally purchase handguns, obtaining a handgun is often as easy as opening a parent's dresser drawer. In eight of the 10 school shootings the guns were obtained from a family member or friend of the shooter. In the remaining two cases, the gun was taken from a neighbor's garage in one instance and, in the other, the gun was already owned by the shooter. Kip Kinkel of Springfield, Oregon, was given a 9mm Glock pistol by his father in order to help the aimless youth develop an interest in something.b Kinkel shot his parents and two schoolmates to death in May 1998.

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http://www.vpc.org/studies/wgunint.htm

It doesn't matter if it's a musket or an AK47. All guns can kill from far distances and that is what the problem is. A knife can be deadly and so can your fists, but you're not going to kill 20 people strolling through a school waving your arms around.