Bugs

At the moment PhD is probably the only clan on the ILCR that is not going back to 2.85.3. We've practiced with 2.85.5 and we have of course uncovered issues like everyone else, BUT, we think the good outweighs the bad, especially on this weeks map Reactor 4 where the clipping issues with .3 were making it very unfair. Everybody has some issues with this patch, it effects all the players. Live with it until the next one comes out.

I for one did not know that there were betatesters who weren't members of SOB. Thank you for this info. Like I said before, communication is key and is at the moment lacking somewhat.

Well what we run is really a non-issue. If our servers a completely unused I may take one of them BACK to 2.85.5, but limit it to like 10 players or something and see how it runs. I think the main thing that needs to be done is have some idea where this is going. As in the next patch. I know it's a way too early to know, but where is the priority going to be with the next patch? Is the performance hogging fix permanent?

I want to ask a question to DB since he seem to have all of the answers to all questions. I asked this once earlier but it got lost in the shuffle. If the clipping bug is a UT engine problem then why doesn't UT have clipping bugs? You can crouch in UT and still be visible. You can also be partialy obscured and be visible, why only in INF? Or is it any mod? Is it the custome models? I'm just curious.

clipping ?

Couldn't the clipping problems be fixed by modifying the maps ? Say having crates , windows , ledges etc. of a certain height that would NOT make u invisible ?
gpk

performance

Ok DB, you ask what will it be? You know what we and all of the clans in the ILCR (-phd, sob) want, Consistancy and performance.
Its not really a question as far as we are concerned. I do however wish you guys were listening earlier.

DeRailer - we are getting somewhere, this is monumental movement forward when dealing with daddybone and the MUF crew.

Gpk... yes it makes for some odd sized windows but it can be done! Takes just a little more testing and knowledge of the scaled items in Ued.

The leaning bug is an EXPLOIT. If people agree to not lean, then you're fine. Its a lot more difficult to agree not to walk behind a box or stand in a window, huh?

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LOL. I'm sorry but as somebody who constantly announces bug after bug in games, people don't care. I've run into a lot of people who say "who cares if it's bugged, if it's in the game I'm going to use it". It's not just random newbies either most of the known clans have people who are like this, including SOB. Just look at prone. Right now it's the buggiest thing in the game and people still use it, and they think nothing of the fact that the only reason they are surviving is due to bugs.

As far as the leaning issue goes...

I disagree with those choices. As far as I have seen the only cause of prone invisibility is due to the animation not playing in third person. I see no reason why the only possible fix for this animation bug is making all players relevant at all times. If they can't get the animations to play all the time they can make anyone who is leaning relevant to all other players. Since it's pretty rare that over half the server is leaning at the same time and even more rare for all of these leaning players to be completely out of your view the lag increase should be minimal.

At the moment PhD is probably the only clan on the ILCR that is not going back to 2.85.3

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Neither is Limey.

As to the SoSilencer's post directly above...seems to make sense to me...

[L]-Damodred

leaning

If they can't get the animations to play all the time they can make anyone who is leaning relevant to all other players.

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In theory that sounds wonderful to me, and makes sense. But as far as I understand it when you take away making all players relevant then you automatically pick up the previous error of players not showing up in windows that cover the mid torso area(clipping).

Even now that all players are relevant the leaning still has a bug, so in actuallity making the people that are leaning relevant would leave the bug still intact.

As far as prone goes, prone people are not invisible nor have I ever witnessed being shot by an invisible prone person. The problems I have seen with prone people are simple. First a prone person is harder to hit(not because of my aiming) but because there seems to be only one small are where damage can be inflicted. When a players stands up he/she can be shot anywhere and incur damage. In the prone position it seems even CQB point blank shotgun blasts will not do the trick. In other words the entire player model cannot recieve damage in prone position as they can standing up. The second part of the prone bug is when a player is in a corner or on a wall in prone position once you point your gun down you can then aim up and other players only see you as a backpack, sometimes with a helmet/hat poking up out of the floor. If you have ever been shot by a backpack it can be frustrating. This problem is in both releases so it has no true relevance. It appears to me that the center reference point of the player becomes active as the only relevant body part of a prone person. In other words look at a player standing up, he is relevant to other players, and the map itself. He cannot walk through walls in a map. Yet, a person in prone position can scoot his self back all the way up to his waste into the wall. Its obvious the player model has not been completed for the prone position, as it is its on some sort of axis from the mid section of the body. It very well may be they same point that is used in determining relevance in windows/clipping.

The part about players using leaning and thriving off of it is subjective. Players where I play for the most part do not condone it. Its all in accordance to who you play with and where you play. As for the Muf servers its not accepted and players adhere to our suggestions for a code of conduct. If this doesn't seem like much then take a look at TheCLQ server rankings.
They list the INF servers and the amount of time spent on each one you will see MUF is the #1 played INF server in our community. By a pretty thick margine I might add.

http://www.theclq.com/s1812.asp

Hopefully my post has shed some light or maybe put things in a little better perspective. I hope one day to see that the full body of a prone person is subject to damage as well as the physics of a map(wall/floor).

Thanks again for everyones time.

performance!

basically what i see is the casual inf players saying the new patch is the best thing since sliced bread and the hardcore clan players, the people who have the most time invested in playing the game, are seriously concerned about the problems with the new patch.

I am sorry DaddyBone i just find it hard to believe that the clipping cannot be fixed in any other way. Cholo has brought up some very good questions regarding this. Why does UT not have clipping probs? why does UT perform so well? Why does any other game using the UT engine perform so well without clipping bugs?

my clan has agreed to play tonights match on .5 just because its too late to roll all our machines back. but after that, i'm rolling the RU486 clan server back as well. the new patch is just not good for clan matches. and ALOT of clans agree. so once again what does this tell you about the problems in .5?

i believe in constructive critizism and hope you understand that my life is devoted to clan play in INF and I have the utmost respect for the INF dev team. I just want to voice my concerns as a clan leader to help INF move forward in a good way.

i can also vouch for deck as being an outstanding inf player and important member of the inf community even though his frustrations came off a little rudely. so you casual inf players and newbs can just back off of him.

I want to ask a question to DB since he seem to have all of the answers to all questions. I asked this once earlier but it got lost in the shuffle. If the clipping bug is a UT engine problem then why doesn't UT have clipping bugs? You can crouch in UT and still be visible. You can also be partialy obscured and be visible, why only in INF? Or is it any mod? Is it the custome models? I'm just curious.

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Exactly. I know for a fact that regular UT does NOT replicate every player on the client. If someone is behind a wall, they do not get sent to your machine. This is proven by the hack to Nvidia (i think) drivers that allowed transparent walls. I saw screenshots of it, and in quake it allows you to see all your enemies even behind walls. The thing is it doesn't really work as a cheat in UT because the other players don't show up through the transparent walls.

However, in regular UT there is no "invisible" problem. I am sure that it is due to the player models. INF2.75 didn't have the problem either. It was something that appeared because 2.85 has custom models. I would bet that a lot of the other problems like prone people embedding into corners and such are due to the custom models as well. Add to that list the "prone hitbox" bug.

So it seems to me that the supposed tradeoff between model replication and performance is a fallacy. It IS possible to leave obscured players out of the network without having invisibility. The problem is at the level of the player models, NOT the netcode.

The real solution is to have the player models work correctly. So that the magic center point of the model doesn't determine whether you're visible. The problem is, I'm sure, that UT models can't go prone or lean. So the INF team has taken on a much more complicated model, with less resources to get it working completely.

Now I think they have done AMAZING things and all for FREE. But just because it's free doesn't mean we have to accept bugs that make it unplayable. We need to try to give constructive comments so they can make it better, and why can't we go back to 2.85.3? Just because the TEAM released it does that mean we have to install it? Why can't we say, "Hey dudes, we really like a lot of the stuff you've done here, but we think it needs some more work. Take your time let us know when you're done."

I know SOME people are impatient and complain about waiting for the release. Well, we're not paying them so they don't really have to meet our deadlines do they. You know they don't even have to fix the bugs INF has. But if they don't, I sure as hell will stay with older, more playable versions. And don't give me a hard time about that because it's my right! Hell, SOB never left 2.6 for 2.75! Noone called them traitors or anything.

Actually, leaning was working, yes... and then we got stuck in the whacky last man timer problem that took up all of our time... and somewhere in there, the leaning broke... it was my understanding that the weird 'tilt' the players were doing was the new 'fix'... hehe, apparently at the end 'invisibility bug fix' and leaning got confused (they are part and parcel, but one doesn't always beget the other) and, well, I don't know how else to put it, we weren't 'leaning right', we were checking the 'invisibility fix' but not all sub-parts - because they were already working, right? Sigh....

As for more testers, yup... but you have to tred VERY carefully there... look at the leaked patch for SF! Its a system of trust, and enforcing anything is a pain in the butt online... so we go with people we know we can count on... that's why the proven INF community members will be sought out, and no one else will even be approached... but we have to check up on people, get recommendations, etc, etc.... and the process takes time. Hopefully by the next BIG patch we'll have everything running smoothly (Knock on plastic).

Oh, and I'm not sure about where I actually asked for 'suggestions'.... but wherever that was, it had nothing to do with code... I don't code either, but I do offer suggestions on what the front end should look like, and then they tell me if the back end can actually do it....

Just so you all know, the new fixes are coming along nicely! Some of the new bugs, such as the quick action interrupt, etc, were only found thanks to the community... so, thank you guys, and keep reporting the things you find!

Right on. I was thinking the same thing with the models, but I figured if I made that assumption I would be flamed for dissing the cool models we have in INF. And I do think they are cool.

The only exception to what you just stated that I know about is the map Bunkers in 2.75. If you played that map while in the bunkers you were sometimes invisible to people in the other bunkers. That was the only map I ever saw that on and I played 2.75 ALOT.

Originally posted by Smiley SK

However, in regular UT there is no "invisible" problem. I am sure that it is due to the player models. INF2.75 didn't have the problem either. It was something that appeared because 2.85 has custom models. I would bet that a lot of the other problems like prone people embedding into corners and such are due to the custom models as well. Add to that list the "prone hitbox" bug.

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Whoa, dude! Where HAVE you been? This IS a problem with UT as well, Epic has even posted about it, apologized and said there was no fix.... And yet Beppo found one... its ALL UT, not INF... the way the player models are put together is dictated by the UT engine, NOT by special INF code. As for the prone problem, that's a different animation, same code... that is an INF only problem, simply because UT doesn't offer a prone animation. Jesus man, do some research first.... Bunkers, as Cholo posted, is an excellent example of the invisibility problem in 2.75... and go to any DM map with a building, and have your friend snipe out of a window! The reason you can't see him below is NOT because of the angle, its this same bug. This bug goes all the way back to INF for Unreal.

Originally posted by Smiley SK

So it seems to me that the supposed tradeoff between model replication and performance is a fallacy. It IS possible to leave obscured players out of the network without having invisibility. The problem is at the level of the player models, NOT the netcode.

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Oh, you're right, its a fallacy, the entire INF team has been lying to you. Sheesh, dude, how does that foot taste? My god, what are you actually trying to do here? Do you have any knowledge about the UT engine or the netcode? Yours is the MOST ridiculous post I've yet seen, as every one of your points is known to be utterly untrue.

As for playing any version... nope, sorry, we'll be at your house tonight to force install of 2.85.5.... er?

Ooops I laughed out loud. I can see the INF leg breaking division already. But seriously I'm not calling you a liar or anything DB, but I never ran into that in UT. Maybe the maps in INF have alot more openings and cover spots so we don't notice it in UT. Well to me this seems like all the more reason to leave it alone and deal with the bug. Maybe map makers will have to be that much better to try to eliminate instances of this or negating its value on the map.

Don't rip too hard; me and Smiley were just trying to point out something that seemed legit. Like I said several times I'm no programmer in the longest stretch of the word and that sounded like a good explanation. The problem is definitely not as widespread in UT as in INF so I would say that maybe the maps have alot to do with it.

Ya I really like these forums.

Come in here and post something in a non-inflammatory manner and get flamed for it. Typical.

Let me say this one thing DADDYBONE GO F--- YOURSELF YOU PIECE OF F------ S---.

I've had enough of this crap. It's obvious that the abrasive approach is the correct one. So there it is, I hope it's out-of-line enough for this forum.

-EDIT- removed words, point has been made, purpose has been served

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I'm closing my eyes - -
o

Nice, smiley, really nice and mature of you.

As for posting in a non-abrasive way, what the hell do you expect calling the INF team liars? Sheesh man, you think we don't know what we're doing here? And just a little bit more about it all than you? If you truly were trying to be helpful you would've ASKED if that was the case, not blatantly accused us of having no clue. That was an insult man, plain and simple.

So man, thanks for the language lesson, and for lowering the SK clan's status in the eyes of the community.

Tell ya what, send me the bill and I'll send you a refund. In the meanwhile, I can pretty much guarantee that with the attitudes we've seen in here that SK won't be doing any beta testing. Last thing we need is testers telling the programmers what they know, and being a-holes while doing it. Remember, as a clan member you represent your clan, NOT just you.

If anyone else wants to take offense, go for it. I'm not giving you the FACTS in here just because I like blowing smoke up your a--, damnit, I'm telling you WHAT IS. If you have a suggestion, tell us, but don't go off on a wild tangent telling us we don't know s---.

My god, I'm done with this whole thing... believe what you want, but we'll fix it the way it needs to be fixed. Should I just completely stop trying to let you guys know what's going on? I thought I was actually being quite forthright, but apparently I know less than the outsiders and the facts I have STRAIGHT FROM WARREN AND BEPPO AND EPIC are just lies.

How about an eplanation of how it "needs to be fixed"? What direction do you think that will take? A sacrifice in performance to get rid of the clipping or the sacrifice in keeping the clipping in favor of performance?

Answer me this and I shall be satisfied and have no more questions.

Yeah OK DB go back through my post and find where I wrote "liars" and then find that part where I wrote you "don't know s---"

So it seems to me that the supposed tradeoff between model replication and performance is a fallacy. It IS possible to leave obscured players out of the network without having invisibility. The problem is at the level of the player models, NOT the netcode.

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That sure looks like I was saying "it seems to me" I suppose you could confuse that with

off on a wild tangent telling us we don't know s---.

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And sorry, DB, I am not just going to take every word that comes out of your keyboard to be the word of God. You make mistakes, I've seen them.

Did I make my point here?

I've had enough of this crap. It's obvious that the abrasive approach is the correct one. So there it is, I hope it's out-of-line enough for this forum.

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This place seems to be some kind of haven for people who can't take any comments without getting pissed and flaming people. Guess what I exaggerated what goes on in here, and my words drew attention to that exaggeration. But it's exactly what happens here and it makes me sick.

So thanks, I think I'll leave this place where candid open discussion seems to be impossible. I do not have need for it, and I do not feel like continuing the pissiness that flows in here any more.

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This thread started to regain some positive momentum. Too bad it took a turn for the worst. DB you have buttons that are easily pushed (thick skin my inf brother), probably your passion and feelings of being underappreciated are a factor. So know we know that another patch is in the works and we can hope that it has addressed above comments. Thanks for working on the fixes. I will continue to play .3 as will most ILCR clans until a rock solid version is released (my hope it will be the next one). Thanks again, see you online.

C'mon guys, sheesh...

I think we are all hoping that there is a magical solution somewhere. That our choice isn't just clipping or performance hit. It seemed to me Smiley was just grasping for ideas, and Daddybone you did say you weren't a programmer.

Part of the problem here is the history between some folks is so bad that there is all this seething crap right under the surface, and even civil posts are read for any possible nuance of nastiness.