Movement

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Hunter

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Aug 20, 2001
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So one of the big things about the new UT will be the movement.

My thought would be to start with normal UT movement and bring in some dodge movement but nothing as extreme at UT3 which when I fired up the old girl recently was a massive pain in the backside.

I think some of the floaty-ness of UT2004 shouldn't be there as it was just a massive pain in the backside when try to get any decent fast paced flow going.

Thoughts?
 

ambershee

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Apr 18, 2006
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I think we should get rid of dodging entirely and just stick with sprinting and mantling over chest high walls.

What makes me sad is that though this is sarcasm, there have been posts to this effect on the official forums :/
 

-AEnubis-

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Dec 7, 2000
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Wording it "start with UT1 movement" will just feed the fanboi flames.

"No double jumps" is all that really needs to be said. That should imply that wall kicks, and other potential add ons are more than welcome. Their omission would allow for a faster walking speed again, as well as better player scaling.
 

ambershee

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I'd personally like movement to be more analogue and less digital - this means more variation in player movement speed due to the way they handle their environment. I'm not sure how to implement this in a UT context.

Double jump for me is out. It's a completely pointless additional button press that whose timing once learnt, just ends up becoming the norm for pretty much all jumping.

Dodging is compulsory in UT and cannot be left out. I have no desire to see dodge jumping as it seems like spurious addition that makes things floaty. Wall dodging is very much fine on my score and I'd like to see it retained. All dodging should be lateral and with minimal or no gain in height.

I would like to see momentum be used to carry players up steep ramps that are otherwise unclimbable, but not as awkward to pull off by requiring very specific timing with keypresses as it was in 2kx, rather just as a result of forward momentum.

In keeping with conservation of momentum, things like lift jumps should also be retained, though certainly nowhere near as excessive as they were in 2kx!
 

Raynor.Z

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Feb 1, 2006
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UT3 movement would be nice compromise I guess, but I'm definitely towards classic UT style, because of more viceral combat.
 
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-AEnubis-

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Ramp sliding is just how the physics handled a surface that wasn't horizontal enough to stand on. It's probably not going anywhere. To that effect, I wouldn't mind seeing like a crouch slide that reduces friction for a bit so your momentum slowly comes to a halt, as opposed to how immediate it happens now. Or a roll, like a crouched dodge.

Someone on the official forums also brought up a "power assist movement" type of long jump, which could be cool too, as a consolation for all the dodge jump junkies.
 

Renegade Retard

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Dec 18, 2002
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I would caution against the approach of "make it more like this game" or "don't jump like this game" or "this movement skill should stay/go." Instead, start from the ground up as if no precedent existed.

Strip movement down to its core and build from there. Maybe start out with "how fast is the base movement?" with no dodging, jumping, or any other additions. Once you get a good initial movement speed, then maybe focus on the jump. How high/far should a jump be that fits the movement speed? Does the movement speed need to be tweaked to make the jump better? Once you get some of these basics in place, then build from there.

In other words, trying to make the game more/less like previous games and then working backwards is a slippery slope. You have a clean slate. Everyone put on your Bob Ross afros and create your own little world the way you see it.
 

Sir_Brizz

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Feb 3, 2000
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I think that is generally correct, although once you leave the realm of the extreme basics (which I think ShooterGame might already have...), there are some necessities in order for the game to feel like UT.

Does it need dodging? Yes. Beyond that, though, I'm not sure. I like the idea of having some kind of gathered momentum similar to strafe jumping in Quake, but I don't know what that is (could have something to do with dodging).

Mainly, I just don't want double jumping and dodge jumping. Those two aspects of 2kX just made people create maps that relied on people using those moves to do things. Whenever you were running towards a ledge, it could be assumed you would double jump. You had no choice. Don't get me wrong, I love them in UT2003. But I don't want UT2003 movement back.

I really want the movement to feel unique in this game. I don't know that I would even mind having some wall running techniques and such as long as they are balanced well. I definitely want the next UT to have more of the in-your-face viscerality that UT and UT3 have, whatever ramifications that has on the movement.
 

TWD

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Aug 2, 2000
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Here's a video of someone toying with ideas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIQabh_xvjE

I think the key to the UT feel is that you can evade shots, but running away is not very effective. Dodge jump did give you distance to evade shots, but it turned into something you had to use just too navigate effectively. Strafe jumping is often used add a method to avoid combat, turning gameplay into a constantback and forth of chasing and giving chase.

So totally against any kind of momentum building, don't think double jump is a big deal. Set the movement speed right and work from there. At that speed I don't think all of these fancy moves add all that much.
 

KaL976

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Nov 28, 2003
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I loved all the trick jumping in 2kx and its removal in UT3 was the main reason I didn't like it. After going to the trouble of learning how to move properly it felt like having my wings clipped.
I'd like wall running and rocket jumping to be added along with the shield gun/impact hammer... slope dodging too, obviously.
Not terribly hopeful at this point mind you.
 
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Selerox

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Nov 12, 1999
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Fluidity > Complexity

I think the key part is to keep a balanced between the stability and rapid foot speed of the original, with some of the complexity of the UT200x era.

My thoughts on it are (and no I'm not saying that this is "The Answer", they're just my personal thoughts):

  • Dodging is a given. End of argument.
  • Double jump I think is less needed. It didn't bring anything meaningful to the gameplay.
  • The wallkick I thought was a beautiful addition to the game, and is a nice touch that gives a little more depth without turning it into a platformer. Auto include.
  • Dodge jump I'm a little torn on. It was a necessity in UT200x due to the low run speed. But I think any move that is 100% required just to get around is a bad idea. It did add a little depth, but it might be nice to have it siomply as an addition situation tool rather than a "must use in all situations".
  • Run speed needs to be a hell of a lot higher than UT200x was. UT had it about right, but in UT200x is just got too low to make it useful. That's a bad place to be.
 

WGH

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Jan 22, 2006
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In UT2004, almost every time you dodge, you do a jump afterwards. In other words, you rarely do "pure" dodges, but dodge jumps - all the time.
Unless I missed something (I played UT2004 quite a long time ago), dodge jump really didn't add anything, except mechanical keyboard tapping.
 

N1ghtmare

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Jul 17, 2005
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Strip movement down to its core and build from there. Maybe start out with "how fast is the base movement?" with no dodging, jumping, or any other additions. Once you get a good initial movement speed, then maybe focus on the jump. How high/far should a jump be that fits the movement speed? Does the movement speed need to be tweaked to make the jump better? Once you get some of these basics in place, then build from there.

I am actually curious because when you mentioned jumping an idea popped into my head. How did the various UT's handle gravity, as in, gravitational acceleration? Did UT2004 feel floaty because you did not accelerate back down to the ground as much as you should? Did UT3 really only feel heavier because they got better physics calculations?

Not really sure how true, just something that might make sense.
 

rejecht

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Maybe this format is more suitable for a wiki entry.

Movement Inputs (I)

The standard 4-way movement scheme..

Hold Left - Pawn Strafes Left
Hold Right - Pawn Strafes Right
Hold Forward - Pawn Moves Forward
Hold Back - Pawn Moves Backward

Hold Left & Right - Cancel Left/Right Movement
Hold Back & Forward - Cancel Back/Forward Movement

UT2004 Double Jump
1. Tap Jump
2. Wait for apex of jump
3. Tap Jump again to Double Jump
- Hard to time sometimes, maybe?
- Always used anyway?
- Could be mutated to add consecutive jumps.

Alternative Double Jump (I)
1. Double Tap Jump
2. Jump Higher
- Consistent with dodging mechanism.
- Still relies on timing, but the triggering mechanism changed.
- Two jump heights.

Not sure if a double tap jump is equally doable (thumb on spacebar/thumbjumping, quick enough?).

Alternative Double Jump (II)
- Remove double jump.

UT2004 Dodge (I)
1. Double Tap [Direction]
2. Pawn leaps in direction slightly faster (660.0) than GroundSpeed (440.0).
- Adds another dimension to movement prediction.
-- I assumed that's why the rocket launcher had the "fire one rocket on each side mechanism" if loaded with two rockets.

UT2004 Dodge + Jump
1. Double Tap [Direction]
2. Wait for apex of dodge
3. Tap Jump
- A variation of a double jump, but with directional velocity.
- Hard to time sometimes, maybe?
- Always used anyway?

Other Moves

Dodge Slide
1. Double Tap [Direction]
2. Hold Crouch/Duck before landing.
3. Pawn slides a bit on the ground upon landing.
- Stop sliding upon release of Crouch/Duck?
- Keep momentum on following up with a Jump?
- Cannot slide over water to stay true to the lore (Back to the Future).

Dodge Fly Kick / Hit someone in the face with weapon/something
1. Double Tap [Direction]
2. Hold Crouch/Duck within some peak/ascent and descent threshold (timing!)
3. Pawn animation leans back showing a fly kick
- Dodge this! HYA! *kicks*
- Effective at half the dodge distance / quick reaction to use.

Slide
1. While on a slope of some degree..
2. Hold Crouch/Duck then Tap Jump
- So, if player wants to crouch, can still do that.
- Jump had no previous function while crouching/ducking.
3. Activates pawn sliding down.
- Modal: Does not have to hold inputs down to keep sliding
- Can move to the sides.

Slide: Bonus
1. While sliding down..
2a. UT2004 Dodge
2b. Jump
- Have to dodge in the direction of momentum for best effect, could dodge sideways.

Antigravity
1. Fall from a great height..
2. Hold Crouch/Duck to smooth out descent.
3. Land softer.
- Could require a new resource (regenerative?), shared with sliding.
-- Resource only regenerates while grounded?

History: Boost Dodging
http://forums.epicgames.com/threads...odgejumping-and-it-isn-t-bouncejumping-either

Boost Dodging - inherit your current velocity when dodging off the ground. It was disabled in UT2004 by default, but the same mechanism is still there and used when dodging off walls while falling at a velocity of 100 or more. The stock mutator MutFastWeapSwitch would re-enable it ("UT2003 style fast weapon switching and boost dodging").
 

DeathBooger

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I think there should be acrobatics with penalties. If you're bouncing off walls and shot while doing it, you should fall on your ass and have wait a split second to stand back up. It would make it less gimmicky and more risky. This would lead to map designs that would reward the risk. It would keep combat more grounded.

I know a lot of people would hate the idea, but it's the same concept of hoverboards in UT3. You just fall down and get up if you get caught.

Another idea would be to let projectiles create temporary hazards on walls like flames to keep people from overusing it. The bio rifle can already do this, but if the rocket launcher or flak were able to cause a split second damaging impact flame it would allow them to be used more effectively against people who like to bounce around too much.

Or, don't make people fall unless they touch a flame or goo on the wall. There's all kinds of possibilities.
 

HugoMarques

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Dec 14, 2010
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UT3 movement with UT1's gravity and speed properties. Remove double jumping and make it only used to activate the jump boots (and increase the height of that single jump). Bring back ramp dodging (ala DM-Rankin), but accessible in a different manner than UT2kx.
 

meowcat

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Jun 7, 2001
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I have not played vanilla UT/UT2k4/UT3 in a while, but I definitely preferred UT/UT3's movement. The excessive "air time" in UT2k4 really changed the feel of the combat, and not in a way that I liked (it seemed to make the non-hitscan weapons less effective).

I think normal (UT/UT3) dodging should be included.

Also, I kind of liked the double jump in UT3. Maybe another option would be to only allow the double jump when the player is facing some sort of wall (kind of like a 'kick jump') so they can get that little extra boost up to an edge.

On a side note, did anybody really think UT2k4's run speed was too slow? If I recall correctly it matched the player size/ground speed ratio of UT (1:5, e.g. 88uu height to 440 ground speed in UT2k4, 78uu height to 400 ground speed in UT), its only that all of the maps in UT2k4 were scaled way, way up which made everything feel different from UT99.
 
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Arnox

UT99/2004 Mod Crazy
Mar 26, 2009
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Everyone keeps talking about UT99's speed but which base speed exactly are you guys talking about?

Remember, UT99 had two modes. Hardcore and Turbo. Hardcore I think had the same movement speed as normal in UT2004 while Turbo was definitely faster.