State terrorism

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Other Dave

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A couple of points:

Both Koran and Qur'an are transliterations of an Arabic word, and therefore they are both inexact attempts to interpret a foreign phonetic system. The currently accepted transliteration, Qur'an, is a closer approximation, in particular because the Arabic word in question begins with the uvular stop 'qod' - in other words, from the soft upper back part of the mouth - rather than the palatal stop 'kef', which is pronounced with the toungue on the hard palate at the top of the mouth. (this is true in every dialect of Arabic AFAIK).

Since most (all?) dialects of English make no distinction between the pronunciation of [k] and [q], it's kind of a moot point, but at least /Qur'an/ makes the phonetic distinctions more explicit in text. It's for the same reason that /Peking/ is now transliterated as /Beijing/ - it's not two different cities guys! Note that /Koran/ and other variations are not necessarily wrong, but are often an indication of outdated scholarship.

***

On another note, I can find no evidence to support the claim that the Caspian Sea region (which you must mean by 'Afghanistan and that region') contains greater untapped energy reserves - in particular oil - than the Middle East. This does not negate the strategic significance to the US of a secure secondary (or tertiary) energy resource, of course. But overstating your claims opens your basic thesis up to needless criticism.

***

I feel pity for poor young Sweep, as I fear that he has opened the Pandora's box of American history. I can only hope that he has the courage to see what is contained within. One can hypothetically argue from a stance of moral relativism that American-sponsored terrorism, though widespread and immoral, was undertaken in order to prevent a greater evil from spreading. But to claim that the US has not been a friend to terror and and enemy to freedom outside its own borders is simply counterfactual.
 

Excelsiore

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I can find no evidence to support the claim...

And you provide no evidence to refute the claim either (ie, in the form of a link). So basically your just whistling dixie. You could at least provide some numbers that support "your" claim.

Since when is this a debate about prenunciation??? Trying to make yourself feel more important by using a specific form of a word when the most common form of the word doesn't detract from your comment is just a useless waste of 1's and 0's. Save som hardrive space for the poor forum owners why don't you.
 

Other Dave

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"It is a mistaken common perception that all the countries of the region have immense oil potential. Based on present geological knowledge, this is not the case."

http://www.rice.edu/projects/baker/Pubs/workingpapers/efac/efcac8.html

The above policy paper claims that *proven* oil reserves in Saudi Arabia alone amount to 269 billion barrels of oil, compared with 15 to 31 billion barrels of proven reserves in the entire Caspian sea region (to which Afghanistan is but a conduit), and still much more than the speculated (some might say spurious) estimate of 60 to 160 billion barrels. You were saying?

While we're requring support for our respective thesis, I'll now point out that you are being disingenuous for providing links that *do not* support your claim. The first article, an op-ed piece, makes the following relevant comment: "Caspian region oil reserves might be the *third* largest in the world (after Western Siberia and the Persian Gulf)" (emphasis mine) and then makes the unsupported assertion that it *might* become larger than Persian Gulf supplies. I'll take Rice University over "The Hindu", thanks.

The second and more substantive article you cite merely describes Afghanistan's rather meagre energy infrastructure, making no comparative claims whatsoever.

Congratulations on your duplicity. You may now present your evidence for the assertion that Afghanistan has more oil than Saudi Arabia.

As I say, though, all this is moot to the more general point that Caspian Sea energy reserves *are* important to US long-term energy strategy.

Other Dave
 

Other Dave

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Originally posted by Excelsiore


Since when is this a debate about prenunciation??? Trying to make yourself feel more important by using a specific form of a word when the most common form of the word doesn't detract from your comment is just a useless waste of 1's and 0's. Save som hardrive space for the poor forum owners why don't you.

It's not about pronunciation, it's about transcription. And it's not about self-importance, it's about sharing knowledge. Both The_Fur and FiringAimlessly asked (perhaps rhetorical) questions which suggested a response, and I merely catered to that suggestion.

All of the Islamic scholars that I know, as well as all native speakers of Arabic, currently use Qur'an as the accepted transcription. If you wish to persist in using the more common and less correct transcription, that's entirely up to you.

Other Dave
 

Dupre

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Originally posted by A_Rimmerlister
btw: using armed forces to capture a few terrorists is as subtle as using a sledge hammer to break an egg ...
It's only a matter of time before the American 'intelligence' makes another "mistake" and they hit some of their "allies".
That's not 'evil', but a simple fact of life.

Well, if all you have is a sledgehammer to swing at an egg, you swing at it. Tom Clancy has a great quote in The Bear and The Dragon: "You don't get into a pissing contest if your dick ain't big enough". And it looks like Bin Laden just got made.

Originally posted by A_Rimmerlister
That's what you get if you use XP ... ;)

I think RL is waiting for SP1 to roll out. :)
 

RogueLeader

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great your sole defense is the fact that ONE of the series of arguements he provides is implausible, not even not true, just not plausible.
Actually what he said doesn't even prove it is implausible. In fact, it makes it more plausible. Just think, if the U.S. told Pakistan's foreign minister in July about this, then logically, wouldn't Niaz Niak, having been foreign minsiter at the time, know more about it than the current foreign minister who wasn't in power when that information was shared?

Jesus Rogue, can't you ever come up with something original? Any post you've made since Sept. 11 has consisted of:
I could use the same logic to "disprove" evolution because evolutionists only use the same evidence over and over again, but it is absurd to say that evolution is untrue because of that (no offense to anyone out there who doesn't believe in evolution).

I did also notice that you listed some things I said (and some I did not), yet you did not refute any of them.

The bottom line is this: nationalism. People who support this "war" (and contrary to what people say with this being a war, it is not; a war can only be fought with a state, not individual terrorists, and no war was declared anyway) are nationalists. Nationalism is a form of bigotry, the belief that the people of one nation are superior to those of another. That is why it is acceptable to kill Afghan children to the nationalists. I have already proven the absurdity of saying it is okay, since saying killing civilians is okay means that Sept. 11 is okay, and therefore there is no need for war. But the real reason the natinoalits support this is that in Sept. 11, Americans died, but now Afghans are dying. To them, an Afghan is not as good as an American, not worth the right to life, and for that reason it is acceptable to kill them.
 

SimplyCosmic

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3drolleyes.gif


You're abso-fecking-lutely correct.

We're all nationalists here, and that means we're bigots and go to bed every night praying that our boys in camo will stumble across a school bus full of innocent Afghan children whom they can rape at the end of a bayonet and kill in interesting new ways for the good ole US of A, because damnit, there's nothing we like more than going out of our way to oppress everyone else in the world.

Yep, besides our latest hobby of nuking unborn gay wales, we somehow manage to be the end all source of all evil in the world, while driving our eighteen-wheel SUVs down to the local S-Mart to buy us some beer and cheez-whiz to enjoy while we single handedly oppress and the freedom-loving, democracy that is the Taliban.

Dear god there's nothing more that I enjoy than the personal thought of sending over thousands of B-52 bombers to ruthlessly murder only innocent children, nuns and puppy dogs. Yes, we here in the United States love nothing more than killing wide-eyed furry puppies. Except maybe Football. During which we use a fuzzy little kitten instead of a ball.

Hell, not even the United Kingdom can touch us for sheer evil, even though they sponsor state officials to personally torture innocent prisoners. And they'd have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids like RogueLeader spilling that well hidden British lie.

Nope. We Americans are evil personified. Yep. Everyone else, good. Us, bad. I can't wait to see everyone I know in Hell.
 

Dupre

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Originally posted by RogueLeader
The bottom line is this: nationalism. People who support this "war" (and contrary to what people say with this being a war, it is not; a war can only be fought with a state, not individual terrorists, and no war was declared anyway) are nationalists.

Ahem.. the current events in the Middle East fulfill the definitions of 1a, 1b, 2a, and 2b. Maybe it doesn't fulfill your definition of war, but please don't generalization the noun for the sake of your arguments.

war (wôr)
n.

1.

a. A state of open, armed, often prolonged conflict carried on between nations, states, or parties.
b. The period of such conflict.
c. The techniques and procedures of war; military science.

2.

a. A condition of active antagonism or contention: a war of words; a price war.
b. A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious: the war against acid rain.

[Middle English warre, from Old North French werre, of Germanic origin. See wers- in Indo-European Roots.]
Word History: The chaos of war is reflected in the semantic history of the word war. War can be traced back to the Indo-European root *wers-, “to confuse, mix up.” In the Germanic family of the Indo-European languages, this root gave rise to several words having to do with confusion or mixture of various kinds. One was the noun *werza-, “confusion,” which in a later form *werra- was borrowed into Old French, probably from Frankish, a largely unrecorded Germanic language that contributed about 200 words to the vocabulary of Old French. From the Germanic stem came both the form werre in Old North French, the form borrowed into English in the 12th century, and guerre (the source of guerrilla) in the rest of the Old French-speaking area. Both forms meant “war.” Meanwhile another form derived from the same Indo-European root had developed into a word denoting a more benign kind of mixture, Old High German wurst, meaning “sausage.” Modern German Wurst was borrowed into English in the 19th century, first by itself (recorded in 1855) and then as part of the word liverwurst (1869), the liver being a translation of German Leber in Leberwurst.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=war
 

JaFO

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and never mind the fact that once the boms are dropping, the bullets are flying, it doesn't matter what you're going to call it ...
those people will die anyway.
 

Lance201

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the very very very old discussion about violence against violence...think there is no objective opinion in this! Violence is what this ****bird terrorists want to bring to the world and I think they will reach their goal!
 

The_Fur

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:con:

yeah they just fight because they are such bad evil people, if you haven't noticed they fight because they want you to get the **** out of their front yard.
Those who fight just for the fighting would most likely be found in the worlds mercenary business.
 

DLL

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Mar 12, 2001
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LOL @ SimplyCosmic!

America - Teh Evil Empire :rolleyes:

The average American wants what the average guy anywhere else in the world wants. The difference is America has been (more?) successful. America is no more good and no more evil than any other country on the face of this planet.

Agree? Disagree?

Edit: RogueLeader, I understand your point. I think it's more complicated than "it's okay for you to die and not for us to die". I don't think most Americans want Afgans dead. They just want to deter them from killing us.
 
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SimplyCosmic

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Hell, no! Every morning, me and my half-brother Bubba wake up and have us some grits and discuss how we'd be killing us some Afghan babies if we could right that second.

This afternoon, I wrote a six page letter, in crayon, to my congressperson asking them to send more bombs to Afghanistan so that we could get more oil from the Afghan desert. I mean, look how much is being produced over there now?! We want more! And by god if we can kill some mothers and their babies with it, sure, why not!

No some people here might point out the fact that if the United States was only concerned with getting oil from Afghanistan, then we would have done so much sooner, but they're obviously crazy nationalists.

And other people would point out the fact that simply offering money to the Afghan government for that oil would have been billions of dollars cheaper just aren't seeing the point.

Hell no, we aren't in there because of Taliban-backed terrorists having attacked Americans over the last decade. We're in there because we only want oil.

And EVERYONE knows the easiest way to get oil is to bomb large holes in the ground, preferably schools and hospitals. Because even though none of the credible world press can prove the claims that 3000 civilians were targetted and killed, IT MUST BE TRUE! Because we're America, and we're evil!

Them bastard Afghans. Kill 'em all and let god sort them out!
 

RogueLeader

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Oct 19, 2000
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Indiana. Kill me please.
They just want to deter them from killing us.
I don't want them killing me either, but since the Afghans never tried, I don't think we need a preemptive strike against a people who are no threat. Who's next? Should we bomb Argentina just in case they might attack us?
 

DLL

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So you don't beleive al-Qaida was involved (in the attacks of Sep 11th)?